President Trump

[Gaius Octavius]

Not defending the godless commies but just calling out something that looks morally wrong. If he wanted to just ban TikTok, then sure, ban it. But threaten to ban it, cause the company's value to tank, and then intervene with efforts to purchase the company by demanding part of the sale...

I guess it's for national security though?

[Skyweir]

Guess again

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

You can't fix willful ignorance and/or evangelical fanaticism. Admitting she's wrong is akin to rejecting her faith.

No sense trying to be reasonable with a fanatic. Try it and they end up strapping on a suicide vest and taking out a cafe.


In actual Trump news, he may well have secured the election with his four recent EOs.

- Student Loan Payment Deferrals
- Payroll Tax Deferrals
- Eviction Moratoriums
- Unemployment and stimulus Payments

And they all expire in December, 2020.

Which means that Biden, should he win, will either have to extend the programs, or argue why he won't. Similarly, who's going to challenge the validity of these EOs prior to the election?

As I did with DACA, I'd argue that the president has overstepped his authority, and is beyond what the Executive Branch's enumerated powers are. But there's no consequences here, because no one's going to sue him so that poor people have to pay taxes, or lose their stimulus payments, or get evicted.

Say what you want about Trump, he's definitely not stupid.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I will split the corona posts over to the main corona thread later today.

As a side note I will state that all sorts of coronaviruses exist and have small outbreaks from time to time. This particular strain definitely originated in Wuhan at the virology lab there; anyone saying that it originated anywhere else is simply trying to give China, who is now treating the Uighurs the way Nazis treated the Jews in the early 1940s, a free pass. Are people certain they really want to defend such a nation?

Yes, Obama quite plainly stated that he had a pen and a phone, meaning that if he could not obtain from Congress the legislation he wanted that he would just sign an executive order and mandate what he wanted. Democrats defended that philosophy and the only reason they argue against it now is because the current POTUS is not a Democrat.

In general, EOs are a bad idea because it is too easy for them to be miused to do a runaround behind the Constitution's back. Remember--FDR signed an EO that put Japanese-Americans into concentration camps.

[Gaius Octavius]

And they all expire in December, 2020.

Which means that Biden, should he win, will either have to extend the programs, or argue why he won't. Similarly, who's going to challenge the validity of these EOs prior to the election.

He can't extend them if they expire before being sworn into office.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

And they all expire in December, 2020.

Which means that Biden, should he win, will either have to extend the programs, or argue why he won't. Similarly, who's going to challenge the validity of these EOs prior to the election.

He can't extend them if they expire before being sworn into office.

I'm very well aware of that, as is anyone who's able to vote.

Which means that if you vote for Biden, you're voting to end the programs. If Biden wins, he'll be in the position of defending/continuing those Trump programs.


Like I said, it's a cagey move.

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

Not defending the godless commies but just calling out something that looks morally wrong. If he wanted to just ban TikTok, then sure, ban it. But threaten to ban it, cause the company's value to tank, and then intervene with efforts to purchase the company by demanding part of the sale...

I guess it's for national security though?

Things That Make You Go ...

[Skyweir]

right?

If Tik Tok is about national security concerns, Trump has particularly discriminatory national security concerns .. seems like its no biggy if youre a Rusky hey the US is your personal oyster .. you can put bounties on US military personnel lives, meddle with US elections as often as you like .. but if a bunch of US kids cause you an awkward arguably personal embarrassment .. youre fucked.

Seems fair

The life and times of young Donny Trump the petty and petulent among us

[sgt.null]

Sky - you know the Russia hoax was disproven? Guy named Mueller did that. And I missed when was the bounty story proven?

Again - Russia, Russia, Russia.
Orange Man bad.

[Skyweir]

Your joking right?

You do not credit the Russians with the ability to meddle in US elections.

Russia absolutely interfered and continue to interfere.

[Skyweir]

Jezus do you listen to your own National Security Advisor?

[TheFallen]

Sky...

Reading your recent posts, I am afraid you show exactly the same hyperpolarisation as those you so roundly criticise.

Your whole approach is "Trump's an arsehole". Period. How is that conceptually at least in any way different from those you excoriate for defending Trump and saying "No he's not"? Completely irrelevant of whether you are right or wrong?

It seems to me that you too have got sucked entirely into this "solely voting against" paradigm... even though (mildly ironically) you don't have a vote.

I so wish that you or anyone else more Dem-leaning would tell one and all WHY and HOW their side is BETTER, rather than endlessly droning on about Trump's admittedly numerous flaws. And needless to say, "because they couldn't be any worse" is absolutely no answer at all. It's just flagrantly ducking the question.

(BTW hats off to nano for doing exactly this recently... whether one disagrees with him or not, he laid out why - to him at least - the other side now seems preferable).

So Sky, again entirely regardless of whether Pubs in here are blinkered or not, all you ever do is indeed continually yell effectively nothing more than "But Orange Man Bad!!!"

You know what? I'll happily take that as a given (and let's face it, it's hardly "hold the front page" news). BUT even though I don't have a vote either, I would want and in fact expect to hear some attempt that holds water to explain why the putative alternative is a better option.

"Orange Man Bad!" may well be utterly true - even a truism. BUT it neither logically nor in reality excludes in any way the possibility of "Alternative Even Worse!" (See the 2016 result for direct and incontrovertible evidence of this).

Is there honestly no place in today's world for any scintilla of positive campaigning? Because God, is it so needed.

[Skyweir]

Im not here to defend Trump or his many flaws... you know the ones that you readily admit he has.

Im not here to defend the Biden ... I agree that he has many flaws and do not see him or any other politician as an socio-political economic saviour.

I really don't have an orange man bad perspective and think that is such a trite dismissal of any position levelled against Trump .. regardless of how compelling an argument adjoins it.

I don't have a vote .. and could give two rosy red cheeks about it .. but thats a position of luxury for us.

You TF so easily dismiss positions that you don't agree with .. you claim that it is because they are lacking .. so what is your view re TIK TOK and Trumps move against it?

Lets here your great and bounteous wisdom ... perhaps it will have a lassez fair capitalist focus .. if so Id love to hear it

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Your joking right?

You do not credit the Russians with the ability to meddle in US elections.

Russia absolutely interfered and continue to interfere.

I guarantee that no one would have ever mentioned Russia had Hillary won.

[Skyweir]

So often the rights number one go to .. Hilary

No one gives a fuck about Hilary .. she's ancient history.

Russias election meddling has occurred and continues to occur .. and why not? No one is gong to stop them


Least of all the current administration it would seem

[TheFallen]

Im not here to defend Trump or his many flaws... you know the ones that you readily admit he has.

Stating the bleeding obvious... and I neither asked nor expected you to defend Trump. Which rather makes your fervid assertion that you're "not here to defend" him as utterly unnecessary as it is completely irrelevant.

Im not here to defend the Biden ... I agree that he has many flaws and do not see him or any other politician as an socio-political economic saviour.

Your choice - but then doesn't your position become rather facile? Someone intent on solely doling out ladlefuls (ladlesful for the pedants amongst us, or if Syl happens to see this post) of oh so easily justifiable criticism without ever proposing an alternative or solution?

I really don't have an orange man bad perspective...

Coulda fooled me...

and think that is such a trite dismissal of any position levelled against Trump .. regardless of how compelling an argument adjoins it.

...but it's inevitably a facile and trite perspective to take, unless you propose an alternative. That's not to say your perspective is unjustified solely in and of itself... after all, I literally just posted this:-

...all you ever do is indeed continually yell effectively nothing more than "But Orange Man Bad!!!"

You know what? I'll happily take that as a given (and let's face it, it's hardly "hold the front page" news)....

..."Orange Man Bad!" may well be utterly true - even a truism...

But then I went on to say:-

...BUT it neither logically nor in reality excludes in any way the possibility of "Alternative Even Worse!" (See the 2016 result for direct and incontrovertible evidence of this).

Is there honestly no place in today's world for any scintilla of positive campaigning? Because God, is it so needed.

So hopefully you'll see the difference between your simplistic "shooting fish in a barrel" perspective and mine. I freely agree the guy's a buffoon on numerous levels... BUT I want and expect more than banging on about the stultifyingly obvious from any opposition that wishes to be taken seriously and seen as both credible and thus electable.

As to TikTok...

You TF so easily dismiss positions that you don't agree with .. you claim that it is because they are lacking .. so what is your view re TIK TOK and Trumps move against it?

Lets here your great and bounteous wisdom ... perhaps it will have a lassez fair capitalist focus .. if so Id love to hear it

I'll forgive you your appalling attempt at laissez-faire, because let's face it, Aussies are barely monolingual...

You'd "love to hear" my take on Trump and TikTok? Just a tad of a pity then that you didn't happen to spot it when I was the first person to raise this and comment on it in this very thread only 6 days ago.

Look, because I am generally kind to and patient with the more bemused, I'll paste it again here to save you the bother of having to go find it:-

Trump yesterday announced that he expected to be able to demand that the US Treasury to get a big fat cut out of the putative Microsoft TikTok purchase... huh????

And here's your video link.

God alone knows why Trump thinks this is a smart idea to even float, let alone how such a thing could even be actioned... so who'd pay the US Treasury? Microsoft? TikTok? Seriously??? On what grounds, pray tell?

I mean this would effectively be government extortion and massive and quite deliberate interference in what is entirely a private sector deal. Forget the security side of things... that might be a legitimate matter for government comment. But trying to strongarm either or both parties for nothing more than a major financial slice of the action???

Fortunately and very helpfully, in that video clip Trump explains how he came up with this idea...

"It would come from the sale, yeah... whatever the number is, it would come from the sale. Which nobody else would be thinking about but me... but that's the way I think."

Absolutely true. Nobody else would think about that...

...because it's utterly fucking insane - as are all the implications surrounding such an idea. It's anti-free market, anti-capitalist, anti-libertarian, pro quasi-socialist "Big Government".. and that's just for starters.

What really wryly amused was Trump's reference to landlords and tenants as his attempted justification:-

"You know, I use the expression... it's like the landlord and the tenant... and without the lease, errr, the tenant doesn't have the value... well, we're sort of in a certain way the lease... we make it possible to have this great success."

Trump seems to have bizarrely regressed to the thinking that characterised his days as a domineering landlord...

Again, the sole person who can cause a Trump loss in 2020... is Trump himself.

In summary, I thought it was the move of an utter bell-end. Perhaps if you do more than skim-read the above and look up any problematic longer words, you might just be able to pick up on that (if you're having a good day, that is...)

How's that for "great and bounteous wisdom"? Clear enough? Even for you? Sorry to disappoint re a lack of laissez-faire capitalist focus... Quite the reverse, in fact. As I said, to me it smacked of quasi-socialist and "big government" authoritarian state interference. It seems you really don't have any clue at all where some people are coming from.

Sky, if you made the effort to be a lot less kneejerk and actually bothered reading and taking the time to actually understand what people post before firing off your agenda-led and preconceived accusations, you wouldn't end up with as much egg on your face anywhere near as often.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Russias election meddling has occurred and continues to occur .. and why not? No one is gong to stop them

Russia has, to date, never determined the outcome of an election; their attempts at meddling, which is the same thing we do in many countries, amounts to "nothing". The only way to stop Russian meddling--or anyone's meddling these days--would be to disallow all political commentary or political ads on all socia media platforms and disallow all political ads on broadcast TV or radio. Anyone willing to try and implement that?

[Skyweir]

Gee thanks TF for that fulsome insight

...

the move of an utter bell-end

Yes so much more succinct than anything I could produce - not being as clever as the fiercely intellectual coterie here in the Tank

I learn such a great deal each and every time I visit

As to TIK TOK .. what Trump is attempting to do with his ban and forced takeover flies in the face of so called laissez faire capitalist restriction free objectives .. a thing that wealthy capitalists would ordinarily balk at.

Though there is indeed a great deal of interest surrounding this arguably unorthodox move

I find that beyond interesting.

As to his national security allegations Hashi .. the very fact that you all meddle in other states affairs .. perhaps states should set aside such hypocricies and embrace foreign intervention then

No?

[Hashi Lebwohl]

As to his national security allegations Hashi .. the very fact that you all meddle in other states affairs .. perhaps states should set aside such hypocricies and embrace foreign intervention then

No, all nations including ours should stop interfering in the internal politics of other nations, even if that interference has minimal effect.

The only people who worry about "Russian interference" here are those who vehemently oppose the current POTUS. The vast majority of us know that their meddling is irrelevant.

[TheFallen]

Gee thanks TF for that fulsome insight

Ask and ye shall receive... if you're lucky.

...the move of an utter bell-end

Yes so much more succinct than anything I could produce - not being as clever as the fiercely intellectual coterie here in the Tank

One of the things about a) being a helpless linguist and b) wanting to do one's best to ensure one is clearly understood - and especially by those who so often display confusion or leap to misconception - is the innate realisation that one's choice of words should be tuned to the cognitive abilities of one's intended audience.

What can I say? I'm just such a kind-hearted and helpful guy.

(Good effort with "coterie" by the way... not so good with "hypocricies" a little later on. It took me months to get WF to get that one even occasionally correct).

I learn such a great deal each and every time I visit

I'd hope so (but I'm not at all sure that this is in fact the case).

However, what's far more noteworthy is that there's no charge... it doesn't cost you one penny. How's that for one helluva deal?