President Trump

[wayfriend]

Orange Man Bad.

Indisputably. By every conceivable measure. Based on the facts.

That may well be true, if only because "bad" is a relative term. BUT precisely how does this tell someone... anyone... that Biden and the Dems would be better?

I respect your desire to change the topic BEFORE you even answer the question.

But first, by what relative measure, is Trump --- who continuously lies about things that are so important that the public is endangered, who circumvents the Constitution when he likes because his checks-and-balances have checked out, who is actively trying to undermine elections, whom every world leader takes advantage of because of his combination of narcissism and cluelessness, and who has turned the DoJ into his political police force --- not bad?

Sure, you can be selective and ignore everything except some things you like. And that's a LOT of ignoring. But you cannot even call that a relative meaure - it's an oblivious measure. Let's at least agree to look at the whole picture, eh? You can only resort to an ends-justifies-the-means argument anyway. ("Who cares if he destroys the election process if he allowed congress to lower my taxes.") Who's going to go there?

And, yes, I can argue that a Dem president who does not do those things is subjectively better. With ease. Getting (back) to the point where the president merely advocates policy, signs bills, and does his job would be immeasurably better, even if you disagree with his policies. I have said it before and I'll say it again - objecting to what Trump does is beyond partisan, is is defending him that is partisan.

[TheFallen]

I respect your desire to change the topic BEFORE you even answer the question.

Don't be deliberately disingenuous, WF... or is your fanaticism so blinkering that you truly do not see the point I've been making?

Read my lips. For the record,Trump is in my book a pretty appalling POTUS. I will take that as a given. No argument.

Sure, I may disagree with you on some of the things you consider as evidencing his "badness", but there's more than enough other stuff there to result in my judgement. I've talked time and again about how low he as an individual has set the bar.

But first, by what relative measure, is Trump --- who continuously lies about things that are so important that the public is endangered, who circumvents the Constitution when he likes because his checks-and-balances have checked out, who is actively trying to undermine elections, whom every world leader takes advantage of because of his combination of narcissism and cluelessness, and who has turned the DoJ into his political police force --- not bad?

There's only one relative measure that is at all important... and surely you must understand this? It's 5th grade logic. Here it comes... just for you:-

Do Trump and the Pubs make a worse POTUS/admin than Biden and the Dems would?

NB... "worse"... both a relative and comparative term. And this is what nobody is hearing about.

It's actually more important for an opposition to highlight why it would be better to govern than it is for an incumbent administration. The incumbent admin can cherrypick and point to what it considers to be positive achievements during its tenure - but an opposition cannot. An admin can point at realities, so an opposition is best-served highlighting plans.

Sadly and ludicrously, again the DNC's sole visible message, call to action and justification for such - repeated ad infinitum by both the party and the party faithful - is merely this:-

"Vote for us because we're not Trump!"

As a piece of messaging and an intended galvanising call to action, that is embarrassingly facile, overweeningly trite and pathetically incompetent. Is that seriously all the Dems have got???.

And, yes, I can argue that a Dem president who does not do those things is subjectively better. With ease.

You do realise that you're now calling hypotheticals into evidence? Things that haven't taken place yet? You're seriously placing weight on things that Biden, if elected, may not do?

What - you mean like order the execution of an American citizen without any due process whatsoever? That sort of thing? We can bank on that, right? I mean a Dem POTUS would NEVER do that...

Again, is that all the Dems have got? How inspiring... what a beacon of positivity the DNC must be...

Let me use my simplistic analogy of viruses again. Herpes is a virus I categorically do not want to contract. I do not need people to tell me that it's a really undesirable thing and something I want to avoid, because I already know that. I do not need anyone to state the bleeding obvious to me.

But suppose in three months' time, I am told I will be forcibly injected with either herpes or the mystery contents of syringe X - I merely get to choose which one? How fucking helpful do you think it would be for a load of frothing at the mouth and swivel-eyed zealots to do nothing but yell at me that herpes is bad?

Not helpful at all - I absolutely need to be told why the contents of syringe X are going to be better for me. I absolutely need that pesky relative/comparative information. Currently, given what I am being told about syringe X by its content providers (basically nothing at all, apart from the utterly irrelevant and already long-known fact that "HERPES IS BAD!"), for all I know, it contains smallpox or ebola.

One last time... "Because we're not Trump" is simply not a campaign platform. I mean, it's again literally doing nothing more than stating the bleeding obvious. I imagine that the entire US electorate already knows that the Dems aren't the Pubs... so why even bother? God you guys really are incompetent cretins if that's your strategy - and yet it's the only one in evidence.

Capisce? Now if you want to obfuscate and duck that piece of childishly simple 5th grade logic, go to it. It won't come as any surprise...

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Anti-vaxxers being the minority in the GOP voter base? Sure, I believe that. However, I would hesitate to say that it is a "slim minority," however.

From my experience, anti-vaxxers are surprisingly common. Many people I've met who were anti-vaxxers tended to be Republican-leaning types.

"I know what's good for my child, not the government and their dangerous vaccines."

I would further argue that the anti-mask sentiment, which also seems to trend with the anti-vaccine sentiment, isn't at all uncommon among Republican voters. Are they a majority? Perhaps not. I can name several confirmed Republican voters that I know in real life who believe that people who refuse to wear masks during the pandemic are knuckle-dragging morons. I can also name several Republican voters I know in real life who refuse to wear masks and very likely believe that vaccines are dangerous.

In fact, most Republican voters I know in real life don't wear masks to public gatherings unless there is a state-wide mandate.

Everytime I drive by the local Moose Lodge, its parking lot is always full of cars. I really doubt those old codgers are practicing social distancing and mask-wearing while inside.

Given that I actually go to Republican events now, meet these people, and talk with them on a regular basis, I wager that I know more about how the Republican base thinks than you do. I can assure you that hardcore anti-vaxxers are in the minority and that other Republicans roll their eyes and think "oh, dear God, not them again" when they show up and want to speak.

*************

There is zero proof that Trump is trying to undermine the election--as I noted, he has no control over the USPS funding, only the House does. If the USPS doesn't get money then blame the House, not the POTUS.

As I also noted, if wearing masks + social distancing is good enough for the grocery store then it is good enough for polling locations. Open early voting on 1 October and stay 2 meters apart--no problem. If you want your vote to count then go vote in person. You vote by mail? Yeah, okay, sure, whatever--you have to rely on faith that your vote counted.

SoulBiter, I can name some Democrat accomplishments in the last 4 years. Let's see...1) they impeached Trump, 2) they managed to get some small charges against minor players via the Mueller Investigation, 3) they nominated a black woman for VP, 4) erm.....hang on.....damn, I'm out.

I concur with TheFallen--the entire Biden/Harris campaign is based solely on "we aren't Trump" and that is insufficient to run a campaign. Don't tell me that you aren't the other guy; tell me why you are better.

Don't forget--if you vote for Biden you are actually voting for Harris, because Biden will be 25thed out of office within a year.

[wayfriend]

The Russians are releasing false information about Biden in order to help Trump.

Trump is actively helping to disseminate this false information. [link]

Best. President. Ever.

(This is what "not collusion" looks like.)

Do Trump and the Pubs make a worse POTUS/admin than Biden and the Dems would?

I answered, but then you said,

You do realise that you're now calling hypotheticals into evidence?

That was the nature of the question you asked!!!

Please help me out of this maze of logic ... how is it possible to describe how Biden would be better than Trump without speaking hyothetically -- that is, without speaking about what a hypothetical Biden administration would be like?

However, non-hypothetically, one can say ...

... Biden is not a toxic narcissist
... Biden has knowledge of issues
... Biden has served in the government while acting constitutionally
... Biden (despite your efforts) is clearly healthier and has more cognitive ability
... Biden doesn't help disseminate foreign propaganda against his political opponents
... Biden doesn't put his political interests ahead of the country
... Biden believes what science says is true
... Biden doesn't cultivate fringe extremist groups
... Biden isn't racist
... Biden doesn't value loyalty over competence
... Biden has demonstrated empathy and compassion

None of those are hypothetical. None of those are even partisan.

[SoulBiter]

However, non-hypothetically, one can say ...

... Biden is not a toxic narcissist
... Biden has knowledge of issues
... Biden has served in the government while acting constitutionally
... Biden (despite your efforts) is clearly healthier and has more cognitive ability
... Biden doesn't help disseminate foreign propaganda against his political opponents
... Biden doesn't put his political interests ahead of the country
... Biden believes what science says is true
... Biden doesn't cultivate fringe extremist groups
... Biden isn't racist
... Biden doesn't value loyalty over competence
... Biden has demonstrated empathy and compassion

None of those are hypothetical. None of those are even partisan.

And most of those are not even true. Go look at the videos from the Democrat primaries and what Kamala had to say about Biden. Then take a moment and look at past videos of Biden.. He also seems to have a problem with not just memory but the truth. He also puts his interests above country. I guess him yelling at potential voters in their face is showing empathy and compassion....

[wayfriend]

I guess him yelling at potential voters in their face is showing empathy and compassion....

Really? This proves he's NOT CAPABLE of showing empathy or compassion? Contradicting all the documented stories of his taking time out to help people?

What a useless wreck of a takedown.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

... Biden is not a toxic narcissist
... Biden has knowledge of issues
... Biden has served in the government while acting constitutionally
... Biden (despite your efforts) is clearly healthier and has more cognitive ability
... Biden doesn't help disseminate foreign propaganda against his political opponents
... Biden doesn't put his political interests ahead of the country
... Biden believes what science says is true
... Biden doesn't cultivate fringe extremist groups
... Biden isn't racist
... Biden doesn't value loyalty over competence
... Biden has demonstrated empathy and compassion

... Biden was touted as a foreign policy guy. He was completely wrong on both Russia and China, more than likely due to him padding his pockets.
... Biden has served in government, fighting busing and pushing his crime bill which targeted minorities. Biden also sat by and watched his former boss subvert the Constitution on a regular basis.
... Biden has severe dementia, which is painfully obvious to everyone, including those on the Left. It's a tragedy watching his decline.
... Biden's in bed with the Ukrainians and the Chinese, and he absolutely promoted the impeachment of our duly elected president.
... Biden puts his political interests ahead of everything, just like every politician ever.
... Biden is ignoring the science regarding Coronavirus.
... Biden supports BLM, and is downplaying the seriousness of the rioting going on around the country. Ironically the Biden/Harris ticket is probably the best the Dems could offer as a law & order ticket.
... Biden does a poor job showing he's not racist. "You ain't black" is just the latest thing to slip out.
... Biden, like all politicians, values loyalty.
... Biden has also demonstrated that he's handsy with women and children, and that poses a rather large problem in the Democrat party.


Had Biden not been bribed by the Clintons to stay out of the race in 2016, I would have voted for him, and I think he would have won handily. His dementia aside, he's the wrong candidate for 2020. He's part of the neocon, hawkish, corporate-owned Left that is utterly without principle. 4 years ago that would have been palatable, as it was largely maintaining the status quo. Trump, for all his faults, supercharged a sluggish economy. He's done more to deal with China than any prior administration. He's done more to advance Middle East peace than any POTUS since Carter.

He's an awful choice, but he's a better choice than Biden/Harris. It's shameful that the bar's so low.

[SoulBiter]

What a useless wreck of a takedown.

I am sorry that you no longer see any of this as debating of ideas or positions but instead you look at it in terms of a "takedown".

If you will take the "trump hate blinders" off and look objectively at Biden as a Presidential candidate, you will see that he doesn't represent even half of the list that you put out there.

I will go first.
Trump is a narcissist. He has shown that over and over again.

Trump's filter is fairly non-existent. thus he tends to say some really stupid things. Sometimes its just him mis-stating something (like WW2 vs WW1).

Trump does lie and has been caught doing so numerous times.

Trump values "yes" men rather than those that would oppose his opinions, which is probably just related to the first item of Narcissist.

There are a number of things I dislike about Trump as a person and as a President. But sadly he is still a better choice than Biden/Harris.

I can also list all the good things he has done in the last four years (which I have done before so I will not reiterate them in this posting). What have the Democrats done in that same time for the American people? What value did they bring? What platform does Biden have? What will his policies be? What does he want to accomplish in the next 4 years if he wins the election? What will be his economic policy? What will he do about the civil unrest we are seeing?

So far I have only heard "I am not Trump" and Trump is bad and this is why.

[wayfriend]

What a useless wreck of a takedown.

I am sorry that you no longer see any of this as debating of ideas or positions but instead you look at it in terms of a "takedown".

So you DO a takedown, and I CALL IT what it is ... and I'm the problem? What a troll.

If you will take the "trump hate blinders" off and look objectively at Biden as a Presidential candidate, you will see that he doesn't represent even half of the list that you put out there.

It's all fact based and demonstrable.

And don't have Trump hate blinders. That's you being a troll. How many hateful things does Trump need to do before I can hate him legitimately? Be specific. I will make a list that matches the number you post.

No one was ever criticized in this Tank for hating every thing Obama ever did, ever said, ever stood for, or ever was. Which was what you guys did before he was even elected. No one ever said, take the Obama hate blinders off. Search. I will wait.

I can also list all the good things he has done in the last four years (which I have done before so I will not reiterate them in this posting).

Trump didn't DO them. He allowed them. He doesn't know enough about a given topic to take meaningful action on any legitimate governing issue.

What have the Democrats done in that same time for the American people?

Well, they passed hundreds of bills in the House that the Senate lets starve. Google it. Read the bills. Whose fault is it that this accomplished nothing?

So far I have only heard "I am not Trump" and Trump is bad and this is why.

So far I have heard only ad hominem attacks and misinformation. And trolls.

But how bad does Trump need to get before we are allowed to say he is bad?

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

"I occasionally post things on KevinsWatch because I am a fan of Stephen R. Donaldson; this should not be considered as condonation of the white nationalist propaganda for which this forum has become a platform."

An internet troll is someone who makes intentionally inflammatory, rude, or upsetting statements online to elicit strong emotional responses in people or to steer the conversation off-topic. They can come in many forms.

[TheFallen]

But how bad does Trump need to get before we are allowed to say he is bad?

Now there's an archetypal straw man...

wf, pretty much everybody here has criticised Trump, using expressions like "setting the lowest bar ever" and "an awful president"... and that's just over the last page or so of posts.

So there is no issue with calling Trump "bad".. it's self-evident, so much so that it's banal... it's trite... it's shooting fish in a barrel... it's a truism. However...

What I (and I'd bet legions of others) would really like to hear is how and why Biden/Harris would form an administration that would be good for the US. And I would like that defined without any reference to the incumbent administration. I'd like to see the Dems justify themselves and their manifesto in their and its own right. Because we've not seen or heard that at all, to date.

Honestly, the Dems are so obsessed with Trump that it seems that the ONLY way they are capable of defining themselves and their candidate ticket is literally solely with reference to and in relation to Trump. Their sole raison d'etre is apparently "to not be Trump".

How the living crap does that inspire any confidence? All it is.... literally all... is "We're not Trump!" And that's pathetic incompetence at its most heightened.

[SoulBiter]

What a troll.

That's you being a troll.

And trolls.

Well I think we are done here. I guess the rules dont apply to everyone on the "Watch". I have been nothing but polite to you WF over and over again. I am sorry we cant seem to have positive discourse. In the future I will refrain from responding to you at all. If there was a block button on this I would block you.

Good day.

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

[...]

wf, pretty much everybody here has criticised Trump ...

So there is no issue with calling Trump "bad" ...

What I (and I'd bet legions of others) would really like to hear is how and why Biden/Harris would form ...

[...]

Then again, this is the "President Trump" thread and not the "2020 Presidential Prognostication" thread or whatnot.

[sgt.null]

WF is a leftist troll. He can not defend the Democrats' talking points that he bleats so he just resorts to attacking the posters.



But Orange Man Bad. TDS runs deep within the left.

I criticized Bush Jr all the time. But WF won't notice Biden is in free fall. Orange Msn bad.

[Gaius Octavius]

Wos has a point. There is no need to defend Biden in this thread because it is solely about Donald Trump as president.

[Gaius Octavius]

I criticized Bush Jr all the time.

While Bush Jr. can be fairly criticized over the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, he was a far better leader than our current president. He was able to lead without resorting to over-reliance on executive orders, and his decorum was superb.

He is also one of the few GOP politicians left with a spine, someone who doesn't kowtow to extreme ideas out of political expediency, nor is he part of some swivel-eyed personality cult.

Were he to run for president, I would surely vote for him. He's a real conservative.

But WF won't notice Biden is in free fall. Orange Msn bad.

How do you know Biden is actually in free fall, other than speculation coming from Trumpist echo chambers?

There is no evidence that Biden is actually in free fall and that Donald Trump is a shoo-in for re-election. There is in fact evidence to the contrary, that Donald Trump is facing a steep re-election campaign (and that he is nervous about his prospects...as evidenced by his firing of the campaign manager just last month...he wouldn't do that if he was confident about his odds). Of course, you would reject any evidence to the contrary out right, yet you are the one who is unbiased. Right...

[sgt.null]

Ur : Bush is a neo-con. He is not a true conservative. I didnt vote for him then. His excuse for entering Iraq, opening Gitmo, allowing torture, etc, etc; has that been forgotten already?

We know Biden is in free fall is that even with his camp only allowing him out of the basement for carefully selected interviews he can't pass muster. "You ain't black" "are you a cocaine junkie" this is what you think is ok? Sounds like dementia patient forgetting that open racism is no longer tolerated.

How am I a Trump echo chamber? I didnt vote for him. I will vote for him this time because Democrats are openly telling us what they have planned.

The negation of many of my constitutional rights. My right to free speech if they consider hsteful or harmful. My right to persue my religious if they decide public safety reasons. My right to gather for public safety reasons. My second amendment rights. To happen by government confiscation of my property. On my property.

Open borders. Enslaving us to the EU, UN and other foreign entities. Pointless wars. The giving away of some cities to violent mobs. More and and more taxation to fund free everything! Free college. Free Healthcare, free citizenship and healthcare to illegals. A new green deal guaranteed to fail. But not before bankrupting us.

There you have it. I have never voted for a Republican or Democrat for president. I have always voted third party. This year that changes. I'm even voting straight ticket as well.

[Gaius Octavius]

Ur : Bush is a neo-con. He is not a true conservative. I didnt vote for him then. His excuse for entering Iraq, opening Gitmo, allowing torture, etc, etc; has that been forgotten already?

We know Biden is in free fall is that even with his camp only allowing him out of the basement for carefully selected interviews he can't pass muster. "You ain't black" "are you a cocaine junkie" this is what you think is ok? Sounds like dementia patient forgetting that open racism is no longer tolerated.

How am I a Trump echo chamber? I didnt vote for him. I will vote for him this time because Democrats are openly telling us what they have planned.

The negation of many of my constitutional rights. My right to free speech if they consider hsteful or harmful. My right to persue my religious if they decide public safety reasons. My right to gather for public safety reasons. My second amendment rights. To happen by government confiscation of my property. On my property.

Open borders. Enslaving us to the EU, UN and other foreign entities. Pointless wars. The giving away of some cities to violent mobs. More and and more taxation to fund free everything! Free college. Free Healthcare, free citizenship and healthcare to illegals. A new green deal guaranteed to fail. But not before bankrupting us.

There you have it. I have never voted for a Republican or Democrat for president. I have always voted third party. This year that changes. I'm even voting straight ticket as well.

Not quite sure what a "neocon" is. I've always understood it to mean that someone isn't conservative enough, thus it is an appeal to ideological purity more than anything else.

Your statement about Biden being kept under wraps and not allowed to speak, having dementia, etc. is exactly what I mean about speculation. You don't actually know any of that. I do agree with you about his tendency to make gaffes, although that's not necessarily a sign of trouble in the election. Donald Trump makes gaffes all the time, so it's not like Biden has that market cornered, so to speak.

As to your concern about Biden confiscating guns, he actually doesn't have a mandatory gun confiscation as part of his gun control platform. I don't agree with all of his policy proposals, but some of them are pretty sensible. You can read his gun control policy here. What he will do is ban the manufacturing of "high-capacity magazines" and "assault weapons" (whatever the hell that is... I am assuming he is talking about AR-15s) but allow people who already own them to keep them. Owners will be required to register their AR-15s with the ATF. There is also a voluntary gun buyback program, which I doubt will be very successful.

Still a far cry from a mandatory gun confiscation like you are fearing, though.

Freedom of religion and COVID-19, I can understand the concern. However, also keep in mind that going to church (physically) isn't necessarily important for the practice of one's religion. Churches are just man-made structures, not the real Church, which is a house not made by hands.

Enslavement to the EU? That's a new one. Care to elaborate?

Open borders... I hear this often, but I have yet to see mainstream Democrats actually advocate "open borders." They might be in favor of giving amnesty to illegal immigrants, but that doesn't mean they want to erase all national borders and let chaos reign supreme.

Even if Democrats get full control of Congress and the presidency, I doubt they would actually implement those "free everything" policies you are worried about. At some level, it's just political posturing to stir up the progressives. Not unlike Trump and the border wall... which then turned into a fence "that you can see through." Kind of underwhelming on his part, really.

[wayfriend]

Your statement about Biden being kept under wraps and not allowed to speak, having dementia, etc. is exactly what I mean about speculation.

What is not speculation is that Biden's best plan right now is to just shut up and let Trump keep sinking himself. There is no upside to his being in the spotlight right now.

Good day.

You are now deflecting attention away from comments you do not want to pursue because you can't muster a response.

You are all of a sudden sensitive to words people use, it seems to turn off and on at a whim.

When conservatives call people assholes, suck-ups, knee-jerk, slaves, and worse things -- and even trolls --- even in this very thread --- you are fine with it, so you're criticism is highly selective.

These are all troll moves. Ever try not doing them?

If you don't want to respond to something, just don't respond. You don't have to insult someone and thereby hope to change the topic. If you're sensitive to people commenting on the way you post, talk to Hashi about the rules of the Tank. If you want to call people out for being rude, all you have to do is call out some other people and not just people you have taken a crusade against, and then you won't look like a damn hypocrite.

It's so effing easy.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

Nano, please don't take this the wrong way, but how is it that you're this passionate about politics but don't know what a neocon is? And how is it that you thought GWB was a real conservative?