Help! Calling all Watchers...

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Of course he didn't have a ring. But you don't have to get married to buy one. Doesn't he have any money?

I don't understand your explanation about Roger needing Linden. You're saying that the Elohim needed Linden. Why did he take her time-traveling with him then?

[Auleliel]

All of this is just my humble opinion (I'm terrible at interpreting and/or analyzing literature):

If Roger had not taken Linden with him, the Elohim would have stopped him, because otherwise there would have been no one else to stop him from damaging the Arch of Time. Roger is not more powerful than the Elohim.
Because Roger took Linden with him, the Elohim assumed that Linden could prevent anything from happening to the Arch of Time (especially as she had already been warned of the dangers related to time travel and damage to the Arch of Time). As has been said by others before me, the Elohim don't stoop to do things that other "lesser beings" are capable of doing; it's beneath them.
Roger probably assumed that Linden really couldn't prevent him from achieving his intentions, despite the Elohim's opinions of her. Roger planned on being more powerful than Linden (or at least continuing to deceive her long enough for her power to be irrelevant).

So Roger w/o Linden = definitely stopped by Elohim, but Roger w/ Linden = definitely not stopped by Elohim, and pretty good chance of not being stopped by Linden.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Maybe he has a white-gold dong-ring, lonely and all...

[Auleliel]

Of course he didn't have a ring. But you don't have to get married to buy one. Doesn't he have any money?

I have no text-based information or special insight to support this, but I somehow got the feeling that only TC or Joan's rings would work in the land (and Joan's only because of it's connection with TC's), and that any other white gold that got into the land would be irrelevant. Just an opinion (maybe even just a "wild" guess), and I admit it makes no logical sense.
Has anybody asked SRD about this in the GI?

[Vraith]

Thanks Vraith, I haven't read the book in 1 1/2 years and I had forgotten about that itty-bitty detail.

I need a refresher course in FR. But I'm not going to re-read it right now since I have three more Gap books to finish right now. I guess there is always the Dissecting forum.

Let's see if I got this straight. Roger could have gone back in time himself, but he couldn't because the Elohim would have prevented any move against the Arch. That really doesn't require power in this case, only changing the history of the Land. Anyway, he needed to use Linden as cover. But why was she useful to Roger for that end? Because he wanted to use her white gold as protection?

And why didn't he just bring his own white gold to the Land?

I don't know why he didn't bring his own ring...maybe he just assumed he could get TC's from Linden, but then things happened to fast. (or just buying one isn't sufficient to make you true owner, or there's something necessary about TC's because he IS the white gold..all speculation.
On the other issue, Roger goes back alone, Elohim will immediately attack, no ifs ands or buts.
Linden is enough of a 'buffer' for the Elohim to maintain watch, but not act...she is the rightful weilder in there terms, and has staff.
Also (speculation) Roger wants to get Command power FIRST. I think if he had, then he can use it to command Linden and/or staff and/or take ring. (he was nearly tough enough to take her even without power of command)
Also, the Theomach is involved in it, some sort of bargain there (which Theo altered by displacing them to a different time) Also, the need for wood from Garrotting Deep.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Thanks Vraith, I haven't read the book in 1 1/2 years and I had forgotten about that itty-bitty detail.

I need a refresher course in FR. But I'm not going to re-read it right now since I have three more Gap books to finish right now. I guess there is always the Dissecting forum.

Let's see if I got this straight. Roger could have gone back in time himself, but he couldn't because the Elohim would have prevented any move against the Arch. That really doesn't require power in this case, only changing the history of the Land. Anyway, he needed to use Linden as cover. But why was she useful to Roger for that end? Because he wanted to use her white gold as protection?

And why didn't he just bring his own white gold to the Land?

I don't know why he didn't bring his own ring...maybe he just assumed he could get TC's from Linden, but then things happened to fast. (or just buying one isn't sufficient to make you true owner, or there's something necessary about TC's because he IS the white gold..all speculation.
On the other issue, Roger goes back alone, Elohim will immediately attack, no ifs ands or buts.
Linden is enough of a 'buffer' for the Elohim to maintain watch, but not act...she is the rightful weilder in there terms, and has staff.
Also (speculation) Roger wants to get Command power FIRST. I think if he had, then he can use it to command Linden and/or staff and/or take ring. (he was nearly tough enough to take her even without power of command)
Also, the Theomach is involved in it, some sort of bargain there (which Theo altered by displacing them to a different time) Also, the need for wood from Garrotting Deep.

K. I'm sold. Just wish it didn't have to be expositive/dialogue, should be nearly intuitive for the reader.

[wayfriend]

Let's see if I got this straight. Roger could have gone back in time himself, but he couldn't because the Elohim would have prevented any move against the Arch. That really doesn't require power in this case, only changing the history of the Land. Anyway, he needed to use Linden as cover. But why was she useful to Roger for that end? Because he wanted to use her white gold as protection?

She was useful because the Elohim probably assumed that she could (and would) stop Roger from damaging the Arch of Time, what with her being the Chosen and all. I think that was the only reason she was useful, she already had the trust of the Elohim. I don't think Roger was actually in any need of help or protection from Linden or the white gold, and he probably assumed he could beat her if it came to a fight.

Exactly. The Elohim gambled that she would prevail against Roger, but Roger thought he could prevail against her. I think Foul knew Roger would not, that he had ulterior motives for this whole escapade, but that's a different story.

[Zarathustra]

I think that Roger couldn't have simply went to the jewelry store and bought a white gold ring because this is the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, not the Infomercial of Kay Jewelers. This is still TC's story. The people in his life are still picking up the pieces of his existential collapse, and doing so within a fantasy land which is a shared, intersubjective, archetype world of TC's inner mindscape. To separate the people from their instruments of power turns this story into science fiction, not fantasy. It makes a white gold ring into a piece of technology, not magic.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I think that Roger couldn't have simply went to the jewelry store and bought a white gold ring because this is the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, not the Infomercial of Kay Jewelers. This is still TC's story. The people in his life are still picking up the pieces of his existential collapse, and doing so within a fantasy land which is a shared, intersubjective, archetype world of TC's inner mindscape. To separate the people from their instruments of power turns this story into science fiction, not fantasy. It makes a white gold ring into a piece of technology, not magic.

I was looking for Roger's own thinking about it. He thinks he need to inherit his father's ring. It doesn't seem to occur to him that, all else being equal, white gold is white gold. Is there an answer on the GI that reflects your own answer?

SRD seems to be about 3 months behind on answering GI questions, as one of the latest questions posted there started with 'Merry Christmas from Germany.' That's why some people here have asked questions lately and gotten nothing back, yet.

[Endymion9]

Although, I too find the Last Chronicles not as enjoyable as the first two (so far) I still am enjoying them.

I have some other "favorite authors" that in the last few years have begun to write books that were torture for me to try to get through. And being anal retentive about finishing what I start, had a hard time putting their books down after starting them. But the last book of each of these authors, I did put down and gave them away. As Seareach said (parphrase) Life's too short to force youreself to read things you don't enjoy.

[SleeplessOne]

I've just started a re-read of FR; I really struggled with it the first time around and was out-and-out frustrated during many parts. However there are certain parts of the story I wish to understand better, hence the re-read.

I just dont find the themes and character development as compelling as I did the 1st chrons and to a lesser extent the 2nd.

I persist as I have been such a huge fan of TCoTC, and I *want* to enjoy the story. But two books in and I'm simply not anywhere near as engrossed or enchanted as I was with SRD's previous efforts.
I'm willing to keep faith and an open mind to an extent, but on the other hand I wont blindly accept material which I find to be disappointing indefinitely.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Well, thanx to all, I've read through to Mahdoubt's shining moment against the other Insequent.

And I have to say that Mahdoubt showing up in the past was nice, the Runes scene was nice, and this last little battle was nice, but rather contrived considering we didn't even know about dude - no fore-shadowing...

I also liked the explination of Haruchai/Ardonal/Visard...

But still, more theme/narrative than story driven...

[Orlion]

Hmmm... I see plot, but it is disjointed in that one does not know what is going on, however, I am able to read on because I want to know what the hell all these side characters are up to... particularly the Insequent, Esmer, and Foul. Ive always enjoyed anticipation like this (which is why I loved Crime and Punsihment, I was so excited to read what that crazy, enigmatic bastard Svidrigailov was up to). To make a comparison, one of my friends said he was able to read the Second Chronicles only because "he wanted to know what Vain was for..."

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

I did it...

Linden you berk!!!

Am I the only one who doesn't understand why Runes and Fatal aren't one book, cut down to size like SRD had to with his original 900 page LFB?

[Orlion]

Hmm....they could be combined...

I've viewed the writing style of the Last Chronicles to being very similar to the GAP sequence... slow with a bunch of questions at the beginning, kick-ass (hopefully) at the end!

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

seems the same, if my mem serves correk...which it doesn't always...

...dude, I swear your Satan is giving the "horns" every time I first look at 'em...

[Orlion]

[ninjaboy]

I like them the way they are.

I liked the way the Roger/TC and Croyel/JA reveal was done.. Even if it was obvious that Roger's Covenant wasn't the REAL TC, I think it was all done quite well. But the one simple thing that I don't like about the 1st half of the 2nd Chrons? LA never once asks 'TC' or Jeremiah if her friends were safe, given that revelstone wsa under seige when she left.

Having said that, while I can't immediately connect with LA's need to find her Son, and while she's boring (no matter how often you read the boos) what I find relevant and important is what's happening with the Demondim Spawn and Esmer, the rivalries between the Harichai and the Ramen, and all that.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

How'd Jeremiah get into the 2nd Chrons?

[Savor Dam]

[overly literal]
RAFO

or...

Spoiler

His mother (the deluded birth-mother, not Linden) brought him to the cult bonfire at the beginning of TWL. That's how he lost the fingers and was traumatized into his current withdrawn state.

[/overly literal]

Of course, that's not what ninjaboy meant... From context, I'd say he meant to refer to the first half of the second book of the 3rd Chrons.