Entire LCs Re-Read - AATE 2nd time around

[Rigel]

But the ring is an external source, too. Yes, I know it's a metaphor for something intrinsic to Tom, so it's not really external. But you could say the same about Roger's hand. Saying it came from an external source ignores how it's a metaphor for his own hatred, Despite, etc., just as the ring is a metaphor for Tom's passion, freewill, humanity, etc.

Tom earned his power by reaching the solution to his personal dilemma in the "Eye of the Paradox" sequence at the end of TPTP. Both the solution and the power are intimate to himself, as we find out later he in a very literal sense is the white gold.

How can it simultaneously be intrinsic and earned? If it's intrinsic to TC, he doesn't have to earn it. Besides, he didn't earn it. Reaching his solution didn't give him power. He could already raise that power, though not consistently.

Actually, TC never did earn his power. In fact, only once did he do anything good with it, and even then the apotheosis came from another character (Foamfollower). In pretty much every other instance, TC's use of power is disastrous, nearly catastrophic.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

But the ring is an external source, too. Yes, I know it's a metaphor for something intrinsic to Tom, so it's not really external. But you could say the same about Roger's hand. Saying it came from an external source ignores how it's a metaphor for his own hatred, Despite, etc., just as the ring is a metaphor for Tom's passion, freewill, humanity, etc.

Tom earned his power by reaching the solution to his personal dilemma in the "Eye of the Paradox" sequence at the end of TPTP. Both the solution and the power are intimate to himself, as we find out later he in a very literal sense is the white gold.

How can it simultaneously be intrinsic and earned? If it's intrinsic to TC, he doesn't have to earn it. Besides, he didn't earn it. Reaching his solution didn't give him power. He could already raise that power, though not consistently.

Actually, TC never did earn his power. In fact, only once did he do anything good with it, and even then the apotheosis came from another character (Foamfollower). In pretty much every other instance, TC's use of power is disastrous, nearly catastrophic.

That could be, although TC did destroy the Illearth Stone. But I think when Covenant comes into his own true power, when he attains the stature of white gold itself, he never has to avail himself of such a crude form of magic. Covenant is the white gold.

[TheFallen]

The way that this particular discussion has evolved now almost merits its own separate thread, because the whole question and moral ambiguity of Power is massively significant. However...

But the ring is an external source, too. Yes, I know it's a metaphor for something intrinsic to Tom, so it's not really external. But you could say the same about Roger's hand. Saying it came from an external source ignores how it's a metaphor for his own hatred, Despite, etc., just as the ring is a metaphor for Tom's passion, freewill, humanity, etc.

Tom earned his power by reaching the solution to his personal dilemma in the "Eye of the Paradox" sequence at the end of TPTP. Both the solution and the power are intimate to himself, as we find out later he in a very literal sense is the white gold.

How can it simultaneously be intrinsic and earned? If it's intrinsic to TC, he doesn't have to earn it. Besides, he didn't earn it. Reaching his solution didn't give him power. He could already raise that power, though not consistently.

Actually, TC never did earn his power. In fact, only once did he do anything good with it, and even then the apotheosis came from another character (Foamfollower). In pretty much every other instance, TC's use of power is disastrous, nearly catastrophic.

I'm in large agreement here - we'd all agree that Roger certainly doesn't "earn" his own power. He takes a malign shortcut by selling his soul in an unholy aliance with Kastenessen. As such, he has learned no experientially painful lessons as to the significance of power... to him, it's just a tool with which to further his own twisted desires.

Equally, TC doesn't "earn" his power either. It's his from the start, effectively by accident or coincidence, for him to call on, although initially with sporadic success. As others have said, if TC is literally the white gold, then power is literally intrinsic to him - it's quite the opposite of "earned".

However, the core difference between Roger and TC is that the latter has learned those painful lessons inherent in the wielding of power - he's become well aware of what a two-edged sword power and its usage is. As is shown particularly in the 2nd Chrons, it's self-restraint that provides the first bulwark against the dark side of power - because, whenever TC is envenomed and incapable of reining himself in, his subsequent conflagrations of power risk rousing the Worm and ending the world. TC learns the absolute necessity of self-restraint and this is crucial.

ParanoiA put this succinctly in his post...

I just thought he meant that power unearned somewhat presumes important cautionary lessons were skipped that would have otherwise been encountered and learned. A sort of extension of respect for great force. You're not supposed to fear or dismiss the severity of a sawblade, you're supposed to respect it.

...yes, absolutely, but to me that's only halfway through the journey to an evolving answer.

Like Zara and Vraith above, I'm very interested in SRD's exploration of the moral paradox of power that runs throughout the entire Chrons. It's clear that the ambivalence of power is one of the core cruxes that fascinates the author. One one hand, it's clear that both innocence and compromise are ineffective and powerless, as is shown in Chrons 1 where TC's refusals to act (or attempted abrogation of responsibility) almost end in ruin and equally significantly, Mhoram discovers that it's the very Oath of Peace that prevents the new Lords from realising the full potentials within Earthpower.

So, innocence = impotence, and to back this up further, we're told the complementary opposite - the novels that TC wrote in the "real" world deal with the inevitability of the use of power bringing guilt, but that only the guilty can be redeemed. So, power = guilt, but morally paradoxically, power is the only thing that has the potential to redeem both dire situations and its wielders.

Although I'm sure it's been discussed before here, I recall that SRD is a devotee of martial arts, being a karate black belt amongst other things, and that I am sure is extremely significant. It's a central premise of many Eastern martial arts that, having realised one's power, one should always walk away from conflict. I don't remember the verbatim quote or who said it, but on this subject, some martial arts master once said something like "The only lesson to be learned from the possession of power is not to wield it." Or to paraphrase this... don't "act", just "be".

Isn't this what TC learns throughout Chrons 1 and 2, culminating in the surrender of his ring to Lord Foul? It's an evolutionary stage past the self-restraint I mentioned above... it's self-denial. It's the fact that TC willingly gives up the external symbol of his power and cedes himself to whatever LF may throw at him that directly results in the Despiser's defeat. He *is* the white gold - he doesn't "act", he just "is". This element of the power of surrender and self-sacrifice also appears - albeit in less complex form - in Brinn's defeat of the Guardian of the One Tree - Brinn wins by losing. Similarly and more appositely, at the end of TPTP, Mhoram, having freed himself from the restrictions of the Oath of Peace and now knowing through experience what an unrestrained ability to wield Lore and Earthpower signifies, turns his back on this power and capability, throws Loric's krill into Glimmermere and knowingly turns back to the Oath of Peace. Although superficially circular, this is the exact opposite of the new Lords' previous naivity - they have learned of Power and the costs and guilt inherent in its wielding. Or to put it another way, rejecting something can only be truly valid once you've tasted it.

Linden hasn't got there yet by any means. In the Last Chrons, her power finds its expression through rage, through the Gallows Howe of her stony heart. It's telling that her Staff of Law has become black as night, as are the flames of Earthpower that it conjures. She needs to find her own resolution, her own eye of the paradox, because good cannot result from evil means.

All this is backed up by SRD's description of TC as TimeWarden - he preserves the Arch of Time by "witnessing, understanding and serving. Across the ages he had wielded his singular self in defence of Law and life." Again as TimeWarden, TC specifically doesn't take any active hand in things - "witnessing, understanding and serving" are all passive verbs, and he doesn't wield a tool - he wields "his singular self". TC simply exists and endures and that suffices.

So in my opinion, SRD is presenting an apparent circular moral journey driven by agonising lessons throughout all the Chrons to resolve the ethical paradox of Power, but the conclusion is only superficially similar to the outset. I think his resolution is this - an evolution from an ineffectual and naive responsibility-abrogating refusal to act, then to a decision to act, then to the importance of informed self-restraint and finally to a considered and fully knowing decision not to act, to accept, to surrender, to just "be".

[Harrad]

As SD says in GI the Insequent werent in 1 & 2 Chrons because he hadnt thought of them yet. I'm not sure he's thought of them yet. And "Suck-er" is entirely appropriate for the Harrow who is positively American grade schooler in the disconnect between his confidence and his abilities.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

As SD says in GI the Insequent werent in 1 & 2 Chrons because he hadnt thought of them yet. I'm not sure he's thought of them yet. And "Suck-er" is entirely appropriate for the Harrow

...or whoever...

who is positively American grade schooler in the disconnect between his confidence and his abilities.

[peter]

we'd all agree that Roger certainly doesn't "earn" his own power. He takes a malign shortcut by selling his soul in an unholy aliance with Kastenessen. As such, he has learned no experientially painful lessons as to the significance of power... to him, it's just a tool with which to further his own twisted desires.

Equally, TC doesn't "earn" his power either. It's his from the start, effectively by accident or coincidence, for him to call on, although initially with sporadic success. As others have said, if TC is literally the white gold, then power is literally intrinsic to him - it's quite the opposite of "earned".

However, the core difference between Roger and TC is that the latter has learned those painful lessons inherent in the wielding of power .

The general feeling in most of these posts seems to be that Roger has no place having power or in the Land at all - his use of power is 'malighn' and his desires 'twisted'. On the contrary in my view Rogers life has been blighted by Foul, the Land, and yes TC as well to the point where it could be said that it is more his right to have power than others who at least has been given the luxury of choice. Roger is condemned (by Donaldson)out of hand befor he has even been given the chance to learn the 'painful lessons' in the correct weilding of power. (We all saw how TC elected to use his power on Lena in LFB - is a crime like this in the Land so much more forgivable than Rogers crimes in the 'real world'.) Sure - Roger is not presented as a likeable charachter, but very little scope is given for redemption in his case, even in his own fathers eyes. Oh well, maybe some people just don't deserve the chance to rdeem themselves.

[shadowbinding shoe]

We all know that when the Creator tells you that "There is also Love in the world", the Ex and the Ex's kids have to go disappear under a rock.

Thomas Covenant completed phase 1 of this operation (the big one), now he has to take care of the little one.