I still have a problem with the potion thing. It seems like they gave up too easily. I would have at least tried a counterspell or two. Maybe it wouldn't have worked, but they should have at least tried.
Likewise Dumbledore freezing Harry. Yes, it was for his protection. But Harry give his word that he would do whatever Dumbledore told him to do - run, hide, go for help. Freezing him and leaving him defenseless not only seemed like a bad idea, it made it seem like Dumbledore didn't trust him to keep his word.
Ideas and Theories [Major Spoilers]
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theDespiser
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you really think Harry would have just kept walking past malfoy after he disarmed dumbledore? he would have gotten in a fight with malfoy, then the other death eaters would turn up, and harry AND dumbledore would be screwed
plus, with dumbledores 'great wisdom', he knew it was malfoy and wanted to show harry dracos true nature...(well, maybe not this one so much...)
its not that he didnt TRUST him, its just that he KNEW him too well
plus, with dumbledores 'great wisdom', he knew it was malfoy and wanted to show harry dracos true nature...(well, maybe not this one so much...)
its not that he didnt TRUST him, its just that he KNEW him too well
Think on that, and be dismayed
What do you do to a man who has lost everything?
Give him back something broken
What do you do to a man who has lost everything?
Give him back something broken
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Sorus
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Malfoy wouldn't have disarmed Dumbledore if he hadn't frozen Harry. Though you're right; Harry probably wouldn't have kept walking no matter what happened. Dumbledore never should have asked him to make that promise; it's too much to expect of anyone.
And I don't think Harry needed to be shown Draco's true nature. He'd been trying to show everyone else all year.
And I don't think Harry needed to be shown Draco's true nature. He'd been trying to show everyone else all year.
Oh, a change is coming, feel these doors now closing
Is there no world for tomorrow, if we wait for today?
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variol son
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Ah, but Draco's true nature was that he couldn't kill Dumbledore, whereas Harry was trying to convince everyone that Draco was a Death Eater (also true).
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
Speaking of familiars, in HP, they don't call their pets familiars, they don't use them for anything a familiar might be used for, they're simply pets, the same as a MUggle child would have. Harry's relationship with Hedwig, is deeper than just pet, though, I feel, she is his friend. Especially in the books where he is stuck at the Dursleys so long.
Fawkes, I have a very difficult time thinking of as Dumbledore's pet. Dumbledore made it quite clear in the past that Fawkes is his friend, he is not a "kept" creature. Fawkes was with Dumbledore out of choice. When Dumbledore sent Fawkes on a mission, it was no different than sending Lupin or Snape on a mission.
Fawkes, I have a very difficult time thinking of as Dumbledore's pet. Dumbledore made it quite clear in the past that Fawkes is his friend, he is not a "kept" creature. Fawkes was with Dumbledore out of choice. When Dumbledore sent Fawkes on a mission, it was no different than sending Lupin or Snape on a mission.
I Never Fail To Be Astounded By The Things We Do For Promises - Ronnie James Dio (All The Fools Sailed Away)
Remember, everytime you drag someone through the mud, you're down in the mud with them
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Where are we going...and... WHY are we in a handbasket?
Remember, everytime you drag someone through the mud, you're down in the mud with them
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Where are we going...and... WHY are we in a handbasket?
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theDespiser
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Menolly
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I'm going back to the Dumbledore phoenix thing.
Is it possible Dumbledore is an unregistered animagus, with his transfigured shape being a phoenix?
If you read The Phoenix Legend, the first paragraph says:
Dumbledore's portrait -- a phoenix dies completely before being reborn in the ashes. So, this version of Dumbledore died, and since he was headmaster this time around, his portrait appeared in the headmaster's office.
The fire on the 'funeral pyre'-- Hagrid brings Dumbledore to the table in front of the mourners. At the end of the service, flames erupt, and a white tomb is upon the platform. Do we know for sure Dumbledore's body is inside that tomb?
Harry thinks he sees a phoenix (not necessarily Fawkes) flying joyfully into the sky as the white tomb appears.
If this theory is correct, do you think when this phoenix animagus tranfigures into human shape it will be Dumbledore as we know him? Or will it be a younger Dumbledore without the wisdom age and experience brings? Or, will it be someone else completely?
If this is a possibility, Snape may be in on it, and the killing planned.
I know, I know, Rowling says 'dead is dead.' But, a phoenix dies before being reborn...
Is it possible Dumbledore is an unregistered animagus, with his transfigured shape being a phoenix?
If you read The Phoenix Legend, the first paragraph says:
So let's see...The legend of the Phoenix has been around for centuries. There are a few variations, but the basic idea is this: The Phoenix is a supernatural creature, living for 1000 years. Once that time is over, it builds its own funeral pyre, and throws itself into the flames. As it dies, it is reborn anew, and rises from the ashes to live another 1000 years. Alternatively, it lays an egg in the burning coals of the fire which hatches into a new Phoenix, and the life cycle repeats.
Dumbledore's portrait -- a phoenix dies completely before being reborn in the ashes. So, this version of Dumbledore died, and since he was headmaster this time around, his portrait appeared in the headmaster's office.
The fire on the 'funeral pyre'-- Hagrid brings Dumbledore to the table in front of the mourners. At the end of the service, flames erupt, and a white tomb is upon the platform. Do we know for sure Dumbledore's body is inside that tomb?
Harry thinks he sees a phoenix (not necessarily Fawkes) flying joyfully into the sky as the white tomb appears.
If this theory is correct, do you think when this phoenix animagus tranfigures into human shape it will be Dumbledore as we know him? Or will it be a younger Dumbledore without the wisdom age and experience brings? Or, will it be someone else completely?
If this is a possibility, Snape may be in on it, and the killing planned.
I know, I know, Rowling says 'dead is dead.' But, a phoenix dies before being reborn...
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Sorus
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According to traditional legend, only one phoenix may exist at a time. But does an animagus count as a true phoenix? 
I really don't see Dumbledore coming back, but at the same time, the phoenix link is terribly intriguing...
This last book will have to be the longest yet, there's still so much to cover.
I really don't see Dumbledore coming back, but at the same time, the phoenix link is terribly intriguing...
This last book will have to be the longest yet, there's still so much to cover.
Oh, a change is coming, feel these doors now closing
Is there no world for tomorrow, if we wait for today?
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theDespiser
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Lord Mhoram
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theDespiser,
I find it highly doubtful that Dumbledore was resort to such Dark Magic. But I did consider it myself.
My theories,
Regarding Snape: I am of the camp that Snape is Dumbledore's agent. It is extremely doubtful that Dumbledore would have placed such faith in Snape, as he demonstrated time and time again, without a reason for it: Basically I think he was hiding something from everyone else.
Hagrid overheard Snape and DD talking - this was probably Dumbeldore discussing plans. It's quite possible that DD was telling Snape that if Snape had to, he might have to kill DD.
Snape, in making the unbreakable vow, probably didn't really know Voldermort's plans and was bluffing for Narcissa and Bellatrix.
This just reinforces my theory about Snape and DD - DD somehow thinks that Snape is a more important player than DD.
Snape, in allowing Harry to keep his Potions textbook (which he certainly did, since he knew Harry had it as soon as Harry cursed Draco Malfoy), was in fact IMO giving Harry a piece of himself that Harry did not know.
What do you all think about this: Ginny will either die or be captured by Voldermort because she is the 7th Weasley child, and Voldermort is obssessed with the number 7.
Did anyone else catch that the barman at Hog's Head may be DD's brother?
I loved Slughorn btw.
Powerful magician, shrewd and smart, and IMO most definitely on the good side.
One other thing: In my opinion, the ending to the series will be carried out by the core characters - Ron, Hermione, Harry, Snape, Voldermort, and perhaps a few others. Secondary and new characters like Slughorn won't play a major part, IMO.
I find it highly doubtful that Dumbledore was resort to such Dark Magic. But I did consider it myself.
My theories,
Regarding Snape: I am of the camp that Snape is Dumbledore's agent. It is extremely doubtful that Dumbledore would have placed such faith in Snape, as he demonstrated time and time again, without a reason for it: Basically I think he was hiding something from everyone else.
Hagrid overheard Snape and DD talking - this was probably Dumbeldore discussing plans. It's quite possible that DD was telling Snape that if Snape had to, he might have to kill DD.
Snape, in making the unbreakable vow, probably didn't really know Voldermort's plans and was bluffing for Narcissa and Bellatrix.
This just reinforces my theory about Snape and DD - DD somehow thinks that Snape is a more important player than DD.
Snape, in allowing Harry to keep his Potions textbook (which he certainly did, since he knew Harry had it as soon as Harry cursed Draco Malfoy), was in fact IMO giving Harry a piece of himself that Harry did not know.
What do you all think about this: Ginny will either die or be captured by Voldermort because she is the 7th Weasley child, and Voldermort is obssessed with the number 7.
Did anyone else catch that the barman at Hog's Head may be DD's brother?
I loved Slughorn btw.
Powerful magician, shrewd and smart, and IMO most definitely on the good side.One other thing: In my opinion, the ending to the series will be carried out by the core characters - Ron, Hermione, Harry, Snape, Voldermort, and perhaps a few others. Secondary and new characters like Slughorn won't play a major part, IMO.
Last edited by Lord Mhoram on Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
LM, check your sentence about Dumbledore thinks Snape is more important..., it needs a name change somewhere.
Dumbledore had a really bad taste in his mouth when discussing Horcruxes, he was disgusted by the very idea, I can't imagine JKR would go back on that and write that he has one.
I agree, not only did Snape allow Harry to keep the Potions book for training purposes, it was more than a coincidence Harry ended up with it.
I'm not certain about Ginny being captured or killed by Voldemort, but, certainly she will be important and there is likely a reason that she is the seventh child, in the 7th book, about a man who's obsessed with the number 7.
Yea, most folks were suspicious about him being Aberforth in OotP, when it was talked about the bar smelling like goats, and the barman looking familiar.
Neville and Luna will both be involved as well, I think. They were the only DA members aside from Hermione and the Weasleys helping to defend the castle, looks like Ron finally did something to earn his Prefect stripes. I still feel there is a twist involving Neville in the Prophecy.
Dumbledore had a really bad taste in his mouth when discussing Horcruxes, he was disgusted by the very idea, I can't imagine JKR would go back on that and write that he has one.
I agree, not only did Snape allow Harry to keep the Potions book for training purposes, it was more than a coincidence Harry ended up with it.
I'm not certain about Ginny being captured or killed by Voldemort, but, certainly she will be important and there is likely a reason that she is the seventh child, in the 7th book, about a man who's obsessed with the number 7.
Yea, most folks were suspicious about him being Aberforth in OotP, when it was talked about the bar smelling like goats, and the barman looking familiar.
Neville and Luna will both be involved as well, I think. They were the only DA members aside from Hermione and the Weasleys helping to defend the castle, looks like Ron finally did something to earn his Prefect stripes. I still feel there is a twist involving Neville in the Prophecy.
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Lord Mhoram
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Heh I edited. I'm thinking it might be that Harry clears the way with destroying the Horcruxes, and Harry dies, but, Neville is able to finish the job.
Or
Neville gets it into his head that he is involved and gets himself killed, clearing a path for Harry to strike the final blow.
I believe it's more than a coincidence that the Prophecy could also have been about Neville, and only one of them (Harry or Neville) will survive. And since someone will be a teacher when it's all over (but it's not who we would think, as of PoA being published, which would be either Hermione or Harry?) that teacher will be Neville taking over Herbology.
Or
Neville gets it into his head that he is involved and gets himself killed, clearing a path for Harry to strike the final blow.
I believe it's more than a coincidence that the Prophecy could also have been about Neville, and only one of them (Harry or Neville) will survive. And since someone will be a teacher when it's all over (but it's not who we would think, as of PoA being published, which would be either Hermione or Harry?) that teacher will be Neville taking over Herbology.
I Never Fail To Be Astounded By The Things We Do For Promises - Ronnie James Dio (All The Fools Sailed Away)
Remember, everytime you drag someone through the mud, you're down in the mud with them
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Where are we going...and... WHY are we in a handbasket?
Remember, everytime you drag someone through the mud, you're down in the mud with them
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Where are we going...and... WHY are we in a handbasket?
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High Lord Tolkien
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Just finished the latest book last night.
Loved it!
Just wondering though, lots of posts here coming close to saying how Dumbledore sacrificed himself to "save" Draco.
Why is Draco so important all of a sudden?
To me he was always a minor character in the whole scheme of things.
I know DD would do anything for the innocent but a lot more innocent people are going to be hurt if DD is dead.
theDespiser, I LOVE your Mom's idea about Snape taking the Unbreakable vow to protect HARRY!
That makes the most sense, imho,
Dumbledore, IS dead but who has his pensives? (is that what the stored silver memories are called?)
Lots of continuing info there I bet!
And I too think Sirus will be back.
Also, maybe someone can help me with this nagging question:
Doesn't Harry know about the hidden room at the Malfoy's house?
Did he tell Mr. Wesley about it already?
I can't remember if he already checked it or not.
Anybody know what I'm talking about?
Help!
Loved it!
Just wondering though, lots of posts here coming close to saying how Dumbledore sacrificed himself to "save" Draco.
Why is Draco so important all of a sudden?
To me he was always a minor character in the whole scheme of things.
I know DD would do anything for the innocent but a lot more innocent people are going to be hurt if DD is dead.
theDespiser, I LOVE your Mom's idea about Snape taking the Unbreakable vow to protect HARRY!
That makes the most sense, imho,
Dumbledore, IS dead but who has his pensives? (is that what the stored silver memories are called?)
Lots of continuing info there I bet!
And I too think Sirus will be back.
Also, maybe someone can help me with this nagging question:
Doesn't Harry know about the hidden room at the Malfoy's house?
Did he tell Mr. Wesley about it already?
I can't remember if he already checked it or not.
Anybody know what I'm talking about?
Help!
https://thoolah.blogspot.com/
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
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Lord Mhoram
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sindatur,
Frankly, I can't help but think that Rowling will keep Harry alive, and maybe kill Neville off. What do you think?
HLT,
But I think Rowling tends to keep her characters dead. We'll see though.
Frankly, I can't help but think that Rowling will keep Harry alive, and maybe kill Neville off. What do you think?
HLT,
Well, speaking for myself, I don't think DD's sacrifice is for Draco as much as it is for Harry, and possibly even for Snape. He thinks that his time is done, and Harry and Snape are more important players. Draco is unimportant, IMO, so the sacrifice really had nothing to do with him.Just wondering though, lots of posts here coming close to saying how Dumbledore sacrificed himself to "save" Draco.
Why is Draco so important all of a sudden?
To me he was always a minor character in the whole scheme of things.
I know DD would do anything for the innocent but a lot more innocent people are going to be hurt if DD is dead.
Yes, plus his portrait in the Headmistress's office.Dumbledore, IS dead but who has his pensives? (is that what the stored silver memories are called?)
Lots of continuing info there I bet!
It'd be nice!And I too think Sirus will be back.
But I think Rowling tends to keep her characters dead. We'll see though.Yes, Arthur raided the Malfoy house, but the secret room was already cleared out, making Arthur look foolish.
Well, to be honest LM, if JKR kills Ginny, Hermione and Ron, the happier ending would be that Harry dies, when he destroys Voldemort, to explore "the next great adventure" with those he loves the most.
Well, to be honest LM, if JKR kills Ginny, Hermione and Ron, the happier ending would be that Harry dies, when he destroys Voldemort, to explore "the next great adventure" with those he loves the most.
I Never Fail To Be Astounded By The Things We Do For Promises - Ronnie James Dio (All The Fools Sailed Away)
Remember, everytime you drag someone through the mud, you're down in the mud with them
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Where are we going...and... WHY are we in a handbasket?
Remember, everytime you drag someone through the mud, you're down in the mud with them
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Where are we going...and... WHY are we in a handbasket?
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theDespiser
- <i>Haruchai</i>
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as far as my post aobut Fawkes being a horcrux for DD, i was just kidding, i dont really think thats the case...i was just throwing out a crazy conspiracy theory
and as far as saving Draco, it seems that DD was just trying to prevent him from taking the final step to the 'dark side', as it were...Draco's not important PER CE, but that doesnt mean hes not worth saving...and anybody that can be swayed to switch sides(to good) is a plus
and as far as saving Draco, it seems that DD was just trying to prevent him from taking the final step to the 'dark side', as it were...Draco's not important PER CE, but that doesnt mean hes not worth saving...and anybody that can be swayed to switch sides(to good) is a plus
Think on that, and be dismayed
What do you do to a man who has lost everything?
Give him back something broken
What do you do to a man who has lost everything?
Give him back something broken
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Lord Mhoram
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Well, no, not really. But, Ron's death has been foreshadowed since the beginning. I personally have always believed that it would be the death of his heart (Most likely by losing Hermione) not of him personally, and I really don't want to think about Hary, or the other losing one of those two, so if one dies, I prefer they all do in the noble cause, and experience the next great adventure together.
Plus she's been very clear that Book 7 would be the end of her Harry Potter Universe writing (other than possible little add-ons like Fantastic Creatures... or the other school books, for charity). What better way to prevent anyone from pressuring you into doing otherwise, than to end everyting with the best possible outcome for everyone who survived, and no room to continue?
(Ollivander's: works out to "Ronald's Evil" or "Ronald Lives", and Ollivander's currently missing, plus like everyone else, Ron got his wand there)
Sorry, just being a bit conspiratorial with that last bit.
Plus she's been very clear that Book 7 would be the end of her Harry Potter Universe writing (other than possible little add-ons like Fantastic Creatures... or the other school books, for charity). What better way to prevent anyone from pressuring you into doing otherwise, than to end everyting with the best possible outcome for everyone who survived, and no room to continue?
(Ollivander's: works out to "Ronald's Evil" or "Ronald Lives", and Ollivander's currently missing, plus like everyone else, Ron got his wand there)
Sorry, just being a bit conspiratorial with that last bit.