November 9th, 1989

Archive From The 'Tank
Cybrweez
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Post by Cybrweez »

finn wrote: Am I reading that right?
No, I guess you didn't. I was cautioning not to look for negatives for the sake of looking for negatives. But good use of exclamation marks there, got a bit worked up I guess. In fact, I believe I already said something about complaints Obama traveling the world, and now complaints he's not traveling the world, see how our blinders can come into play?

malik, I see your point about the need to look for negatives, and you haven't hid anything, but I'm just recalling the old adage, "pick your battles". If everything becomes negative, then its easier to write you off. I know, everything he does can be negative, and can be important, but for those who disagree, they just see someone who points out negative no matter what.
--Andy

"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."
Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.

I believe in the One who says there is life after this.
Now tell me how much more open can my mind be?
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Post by Zarathustra »

Cybrweez wrote: malik, I see your point about the need to look for negatives, and you haven't hid anything, but I'm just recalling the old adage, "pick your battles". If everything becomes negative, then its easier to write you off. I know, everything he does can be negative, and can be important, but for those who disagree, they just see someone who points out negative no matter what.
It's not a bad point, especially when you look around and notice all the most active liberals on this board have simply dropped out of the discussion. (I don't blame them. I would too if I'd elected this trainwreck.)

I do pick my battles:

The weakening of the War on Terror.
Government takeover of health care.
Anti-capitalism.
Diminishment of freedom and increase in government power/control.
Attacks on political speech (dissent, conservative media, protesters).

Those have pretty much been my beefs lately. I haven't been very active on this particular thread, but I feel that it fits right in with those themes. Have I also commented on the Nobel Peace prize and the Olympics (or other things that don't fit in that list)? Sure. But given the threads I create, I think it's clear where my focus lies. I'm not here just to bash Obama. I'm trying to convince others that America needs saving from its leaders.
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Post by Cybrweez »

Hey, I'm in the same boat. My opinion is Rep or Dem, both are bad for this country, but at least Rep not as bad.

But, that is something I've noticed, the libs have dropped out. Poor finn, almost all alone...

I'm sure its due to the tiredness of all negative posts about Obama. And its not surprising that would be the case. Its also not surprising that most conservatives might see it as "no wonder, I couldn't defend this 'trainwreck' either".

I can see how it all isn't surprising, almost expected, but isn't it kind of sad?

Well, I hope those who support Obama's policies come back and try to defend them, b/c otherwise those who are against them are emboldened in their opposition. I mean, I won't give up defending Christianity against the multitude of attacks it receives in the Close :) (I hope I won't anyway...)
--Andy

"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."
Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.

I believe in the One who says there is life after this.
Now tell me how much more open can my mind be?
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Post by finn »

Cybrweez wrote:
finn wrote: Am I reading that right?
No, I guess you didn't. I was cautioning not to look for negatives for the sake of looking for negatives. But good use of exclamation marks there, got a bit worked up I guess. In fact, I believe I already said something about complaints Obama traveling the world, and now complaints he's not traveling the world, see how our blinders can come into play?
Then I think I agree with that and that should also go some way towards responding to Zarathustra......
Z wrote:It's an attempt to portray criticism in general as petty, in order to deflect and dismiss legitimate criticism as equivalent to wardrobe comments.
............. I'll add that its not to show criticism in general as petty but to show petty criticism as petty.
Z wrote:I'm not here just to bash Obama. I'm trying to convince others that America needs saving from its leaders.

................ by getting them to bash Obama with you!?
the libs have dropped out. Poor finn, almost all alone...
Yeah I've been feeling like the small guy in wrestling who is being beaten around by four gorillas tag teaming him...... I'm sorta waiting for that part in the script when something happens and the little guy whips all your :oops: ................................, sorry the Gorilla's arses!

The problem is that I do by nature look to play fair (or at least I think so), in a situation like this any acknowledgement of anyone's points is immediately leaped upon as some form of concession in the discourse. Consequently, I have to be more dogmatic than I would normally like to balance the implacability of some who post opinions at odds with mine...... I'm just glad the likes of exnihilo and KT are not active right now too! :lol:
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Post by Cybrweez »

Whew, yesterday KW was blocked for me at work, today it isn't. I thought my world might come crashing down.

finn, I agree about acknowledging another's points, people are so afraid "they lose". Also, I'm one of the small guys in the Close, so I know the feeling.
One thousand giant dominoes were toppled in Berlin Monday along the path where the Berlin Wall once stood. German Chancellor Angela Merkel, raised in communist East Germany, stood next to former Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev as Europe celebrated the fall of the Wall 20 years ago. "Looking back, we can see many causes that led to the peaceful revolution, but it still remains a miracle," German President Horst Koehler said.

It seems just a short time since we prayed earnestly for our persecuted Christian brothers and sisters behind the Iron Curtain. It seems just a few moments since the doctrine of Mutual Assured Destruction ironically kept the world safe from nuclear war, and Johnny Carson did impressions of Ronald Reagan talking to Gorbachev on the Tonight Show. Yet, 20 years have passed since freedom came to East Germany on November 9, 1989. We now have freshmen in college who have no memory of a time when the harsh fist of communism gripped Eastern Europe. They don't remember the reality of Soviet missiles aimed at American cities, and youngsters in the former Soviet Bloc take freedom of travel for granted. Yet, while Eastern Europe rejoiced in its freedom from communist rule, the road to a free market society has been a rocky, difficult trudge for many of its people.

If you've forgotten, freedom for East Germany actually started in Hungary earlier that autumn. In September of 1989, vacationing East Germans asked to emigrate through Hungary's border, and (on 9/11) Hungary opened their door into Austria. For the first time since the Berlin Wall was built in 1961, East Germans were able to openly escape into the West.

This seemingly small, but massively significant event led almost directly to the fall of the Wall two months later (on 11/9). Erich Honecker, General Secretary of the Socialist Unity Party of Germany, decided to relax travel restrictions and allow East Germans to go in and out of the country in an attempt to keep them from emigrating via Hungary. East Germans poured out of their communist "utopia" by the hundreds of thousands.

Had Gorbachev offered Soviet troops to get things under control, the history of the past two decades might have been different. But Gorbachev offered no such help to rescue communist East Germany. Honecker was forced to resign, and the new leadership opened up the Berlin wall on November 9, 1989. East Berliners took little time to make their exodus to the West, and over the next days and weeks, chunks of the wall were taken as souvenirs. Within a few months, Germany reunification was underway.

Yet, while the Wall fell, things have not gone easily for Germany. Communism took its toll on East Germany, and now 20 years later, the western part of the country is still propping up its re-attached other half. While the people from the East were freed from tyranny and political oppression, their transition to a free market economic system has been slow. From the point of view of West Germans, the fall of the Wall was costly and they were the ones forced to shoulder most of the economic burden. Gunther Bially in Hamburg wrote us, saying:

"The government took a little percentage out of our pay checks called the Soli (short for Solidaritätszuschlag). They told us it would be only for two years or so. Twenty years later we still pay the Soli. Every year West Germany pumps some 100 billion euros into East Germany to keep it alive and going. Without our money many parts of East Germany would collapse. There does not seem to be an end to this.

"We don't want to change this historical event. But we have been paying a lot of money for it and will be paying for it without really seeing the financial benefits. Twenty years ago they told us that East Germany would develop into a new oasis with new investments and lots of jobs...I guess it has not so far."

The other nations in the former Soviet bloc have had the same problems. Free elections and the restoration of civil rights and human dignity go a long way, but 20 years after the fall of the old oppressive communist regimes, many older people just wish prices weren't so high. The Czech Republic has gone a long way in transitioning back to a free market system; after all, in 1989 there were still people alive who remembered how life worked before communism. Countries like Bulgaria, though, have had a much harder time.

Petar Stoyanov, Bulgarian president from 1997 until 2002, said low living standards "remain the Achilles' heel of the country's transition" to democracy. "I never imagined that, 20 years later, there would be so many people, mainly the elderly, who can't afford to buy simple things," he said in an interview with The Washington Times. "None of us understood the destruction we inherited after 45 years of communism," he said. "The idea that you could wait for someone else to do the work had taken away individual creativity and initiative."
--Andy

"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."
Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.

I believe in the One who says there is life after this.
Now tell me how much more open can my mind be?
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Post by Cail »

I meant to post something up yesterday, as it was the 25th anniversary.

So I'm late.

The Man Who Disobeyed His Boss And Opened The Berlin Wall
To many Germans, Harald Jaeger is the man who opened the Berlin Wall.

It's a legacy that still makes the former East German border officer uncomfortable 25 years after he defied his superiors' orders and let thousands of East Berliners pour across his checkpoint into the West.

"I didn't open the wall. The people who stood here, they did it," says the 71-year-old with a booming voice who was an East German lieutenant colonel in charge of passport control at Bornholmer Street. "Their will was so great, there was no other alternative but to open the border."

Those people had come to his crossing at Bornholmer Street after hearing Politburo member Guenther Schabowski say — mistakenly, as it turns out — at an evening news conference on Nov. 9, 1989, that East Germans would be allowed to cross into West Germany, effective immediately.

Schabowski was a member of the ruling Socialist Unity Party in East Germany who helped force East German leader Erich Honecker from power a month earlier because of mounting public pressure across the Soviet Bloc for reforms.

Jaeger recalls almost choking on his dinner when he heard Schabowski on his workplace cafeteria's TV set. He rushed to the office to get some clarification on what his border guards were supposed to do.

For East Berliners yearning to go to a part of their city that had been off-limits for 28 years, Schabowski's meaning couldn't have been clearer. He was a member of the ruling party, and what he said was law.

But for Jaeger, everything he learned as a communist who served his homeland in the army, border patrol and much-hated Ministry for State Security had been turned on its head.

The Berlin Wall was a "rampart against fascism," he recalls. "When it went up on the 13th of August, 1961, I cheered."

A Feeling Of Uncertainty

Twenty-eight years later, on Nov. 9, hours before the Berlin Wall came down, Jaeger felt confused.

He says between 10 and 20 people showed up at Bornholmer Street right after Schabowski's news conference. They kept their distance from the crossing, nervously waiting for a sign from the East German guards that it was all right to cross.

They didn't give any.

The crowd soon swelled to 10,000, with many of them shouting: "Open the gate!"

"I called Col. Ziegenhorn, who was my boss at the time, and he said: 'You are calling me because of this nonsense?' " Jaeger says, adding that Ziegenhorn told him to send the people away. Jaeger says further calls to other government officials didn't help, either.

He insists that East German border guards never had orders to shoot East Berliners illegally crossing into the West on that night or any other. But the official Center for Contemporary History in Potsdam says 136 people were killed at the Berlin Wall during its existence, including people trying to escape, border guards and bystanders.

Jaeger says lethal fire was permitted only if guards felt their lives were threatened.

During the quarter-century he worked at the Bornholmer Street crossing, his guards only fired one warning shot, Jaeger says. But on Nov. 9, he worried that if the crowd grew unruly, people would end up hurt, even if it wasn't from guns.

To ease the tension, he was ordered to let some of the rowdier people through, but to stamp their passports in a way that rendered them invalid if they tried to return home.

Their departure only fired the crowd up more, and pressure mounted on Jaeger from above and below to avert a riot. Despite orders from his higher ups not to let more people through, at 11:30 p.m.: "I ordered my guards to set aside all the controls, raise the barrier and allow all East Berliners to travel through," he says.

It's an order Jaeger says he never would have given if Schabowski hadn't given the press conference four hours earlier.

He estimates that more than 20,000 East Berliners on foot and by car crossed into the West at Bornholmer Street. Some curious West Berliners even entered the east.

People crossing hugged and kissed the border guards and handed them bottles of sparkling wine, Jaeger recalls. Several wedding parties from East Berlin moved their celebrations across the border, and a couple of brides even handed the guards their wedding bouquets.

But Jaeger says he refused to leave East Berlin.

"I was on duty," he explains with a laugh. East German officers didn't get permission from their government to cross into the West until just before Christmas, he adds. Red tape involving his travel documents delayed the trip another month.

When he finally did go, Jaeger decided it had to be across his border crossing to the West Berlin neighborhood on the other side.

"I felt like I knew that place after hearing so often about it from people who constantly crossed here," he says. "So I wanted to see for myself what the area was like."

His first impressions of West Berlin weren't very positive, however. He was surprised, for example, to see Turkish immigrants living in conditions as poor as those of East Berlin.

But he also knew from West Germans who came across his border crossing that western goods were better than eastern ones and more readily available. Bananas, for example, were available in West Berlin during the cold winter months, but not in East Berlin, he says.

The West German government gave 100 marks (about $60) to East Germans who came to visit. Jaeger says he bought an air pump for his car tires and gave the rest of the money to his wife and daughter.

Reunification of East and West Germany in 1990 led to the dissolution of the East German border authority, and Jaeger found himself unemployed at age 47. He tried his hand at a number of businesses, including selling newspapers, but he says the ventures never took off.

So he retired to a small town outside Berlin and spends his time giving interviews and traveling with his wife, Marga. He says they love to travel to countries they couldn't go to before 1989, including Turkey for their 50th wedding anniversary.

Jaeger says he has no regrets about what he did on the night of Nov. 9, 1989, nor was he punished by his East German superiors for doing it. He adds that he is looking forward to the 25th anniversary activities this weekend.

The highlight, he says, will be a meeting with one of his heroes — Mikhail Gorbachev. The former Soviet leader has invited Jaeger to his Berlin hotel on Saturday.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

We are less free now than we were then. What a shame.
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Post by Avatar »

In some ways, sure. In others we are "more" "free." It's a state of mind. ;)

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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

If I go to San Antonio, Federal authorities are not obligated to respect any of my Constitutional rights or freedoms because I am within the 100-mile/161-km "Constitution-free zone" next to the border, a special provision under the umbrella of the Patriot Act and DHS.
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But all around the world same-sex couples are allowed to get married.

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Post by Cail »

Avatar wrote:But all around the world same-sex couples are allowed to get married.
Big fucking deal.

I think having the right to be free of random searches and sezures is a bit more important.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by Avatar »

It is to them. And you're never free of random searches and seizures. Anywhere and no matter what the law is. You aren't now, and you certainly weren't in 1989.

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Post by Cail »

Avatar wrote:It is to them. And you're never free of random searches and seizures. Anywhere and no matter what the law is. You aren't now, and you certainly weren't in 1989.
Horseshit Av, you haven't been paying attention.

It's a gift to idiots when the married couple can have their assets seized, their cars searched, and their spouses held without charge indefinitely. SSM is a great thing, but it pales in comparison to the rights we've lost in the last 14 years.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by Avatar »

My point is that you never really had them. I'm pretty sure you also argue that rights don't really exist. Which means that it was at the whim of the government that they didn't do those things (and they did do them even then, if less frequently).

Before these rights that were taken away from you, the government did all those things too, if it needed (or wanted) to. Now it's doing it again.

I suppose in theory you have less rights (or less recourse) in a legal sense, but in a practical sense, the government has the guns and does whatever it wants. You can't really stop it, and never really have been able to. *shrug*

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Post by Cail »

Apparently you haven't read anything in here over the course of the last 10 years.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by Avatar »

The law only protects you to the extent that the government allows it. As such, (and as I'm pretty sure you have argued yourself (or at least agreed with) ) any rights and freedoms we have are arbitrary.

If they're arbitrary, they can (and have) been rescinded at any time as it suits whoever is in charge.

That is what hasn't changed. Which particular ones they happen to feel like upholding at any given moment is almost irrelevant.

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Post by Cail »

Av, go have your theoretical argument somewhere else. The shit that's happening now wasn't happening in 1989.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by SerScot »

Well, crap. I just realized this is a Necro thread. Mrs. Clinton was Secretary of State when the post I previously quoted was made.
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Post by Avatar »

Cail wrote:Av, go have your theoretical argument somewhere else. The shit that's happening now wasn't happening in 1989.
Whatever Cail.

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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Realistically, yes--any rights and freedoms we have exist only by the whim of the government and all its guns, regardless of what some dusty old piece of paper says. We are supposed to be operating under the rules set down in the dusty piece of paper, though, so when the government is not operating by those rules then our system has broken down and we are operating under something which is pretending to be the country we are supposed to be. There isn't anything that can be done about that which doesn't involve bringing more guns to the table than they will bring, though, and that isn't likely to happen any time soon.

In the meantime, though, I will still complain loudly about it and hope that someone listens.
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