Insanity of the Left

[Vraith]

nuanced understanding.

So in this case, Omar is conflating bad policy of Israel with generalities of the entirety of Judaism.

HEE, if I were one of the odd folk I'd say "It can't be RACIST. Judaism isn't a RACE!"
But I'm not.

Yea, nuance. It was badly done, pretty rough/ugly---easily seen as stereotypical, all the other criticisms of it...

But the nuance cuts both ways...
AIPAC has, as a matter of fact, engaged in and funded seriously bad shit and people. She should be clearer, concise, targeted, and not cut in swaths/sweeps---but the current Israeli gov't/policies as driven/embodied by Bibi, and AIPAC in some actions, are nothing like pure/innocent.

AND---give her credit, everyone...she apologized flat out.
Didn't wiggle weasel and walkback. Unlike some well-known white-nationalist/white supremacist folk in congress.

[Skyweir]

Man, you righties have been sleeping on this today, so I guess I'll bring it up:

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/11/69348099 ... i-semitism

Rampant anti-semitism is a huge danger the further extreme you go. It is not just conspiracy theorists and their "the world is controlled by Jewish owned banks", it's on the Progressive (damn them for co-opting that word) side, in particular when talking about Israel. This is because the extremist lacks something very important to rational political discourse: nuanced understanding.

So in this case, Omar is conflating bad policy of Israel with generalities of the entirety of Judaism. It's essentially like saying blacks are violent because of the actions of some criminals. It's racist on both accounts.

Honestly one comment? Or were there others I missed.

I dont know ... humans are sooo sensitive these days . And there are real things TO BE concerned about. Stating its all about the Benjamins is right. If indeed she means the money Its always all about the money If she is somehow referring to Israel .. ok they are a strong lobby group, fact . If shes referring to Netenyahu .. and his Zionist government and leadership .. tongue in cheek . but still right.

She was pulled up and immediately apologised for her gaffe. End of story.

If the outrage was sparked because shes a Muslim .. which I suspect had a lot more play here .. then that explains a lot, no?

[Zarathustra]

She was pulled up and immediately apologised for her gaffe. End of story.

If the outrage was sparked because shes a Muslim .. which I suspect had a lot more play here .. then that explains a lot, no?

Saying what you mean isn't a gaffe. She only apologized because Pelosi and the other Dem leaders made her do it.

On your second point, if there was any chance that the criticism aimed at her was because she's a Muslim, don't you think the Dem leaders would have already played that card? She was scolded for her words, not her religion.

Now, with that said, I don't doubt that her being a Muslim had something to do with *her* animosity towards Israel. I don't know if you've noticed this, but many millions of Muslims don't like Jews! In fact, many want to blow them off the map.

[Gaius Octavius]

To be fair, how is she 'anti-Semitic' when she's an Arab, a Semitic people?

@Sky, Z has a point. If it was about her being Muslim, the Dems would have played that card already.

It is true, like Z said, that many Muslims don't like Jews at all. Especially Palestinian-Americans.

[Vraith]

It is true, like Z said, that many Muslims don't like Jews at all. Especially Palestinian-Americans.

You don't think the reverse is also true?
Are you sure it's Jews, and not Israel?

And it's STILL true that the basis of what she said is accurate.
AIPAC does, in fact, pay cold hard cash to support Pro-Israel politicians, and pays cold hard cash to anti-Muslim people/groups.

[[note the difference---Israel, Muslim...one is definitely worse than the other.]].

[Gaius Octavius]

Vraith, I don't really disagree with you on this, but I do think that many people (Muslims included) conflate Israel with the entirety of Judaism.

EDIT: Also one thing that bothers the shit out of me is the existence of organizations and their websites that dox people who criticize Israel. They use it primarily against academics and students to extort and silence them. It is also said that lobbyist organizations like AIPAC are powerful enough to either make a politician's career successful or keep them from getting elected. Obviously that is inexcusable, even if the lobbyists are associated with one of our closest allies.

Remember, the US prevents people who are of foreign birth from becoming President of the United States of America. We do it for a reason, which is to help prevent foreign influence which was especially a danger when we were enemies with Britain. Lobbyists have subverted this, and now the US is beholden to foreign groups with too much power and influence in our politics.

[Avatar]

Vraith, I don't really disagree with you on this, but I do think that many people (Muslims included) conflate Israel with the entirety of Judaism.

Probably true.

Problem is, very often so does almost everybody else, including Israel. And that's why, if somebody criticises Israel's policies for example, they're accused of anti-Semiticism.

--A

[Skyweir]

Indeed.. and I think there is a justifiable distinction between Jewishness and Netanyahus pro Zionist government Israel.

There are Jews who do not support Israeli actions in the Gaza Strip and actually support Palestine.

The distinction is valuable imv.

[sgt.null]

People have a right to take her task.
Many of her faith support a new Holocaust
Against those of Jewish faith. She should be
Run out of Congress.

[Savor Dam]

Not sure I'd go so far as to run her out of Congress. Her statement was not acceptable, and she made a proper apology. Whether this was compelled by her leadership or not, it was a more legitimate display of contrition than one normally sees from political figures.

Bring on the accusations of "whataboutism", but run Ilhan Omar out of Congress only after doing so to Steve King.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Indeed.. and I think there is a justifiable distinction between Jewishness and Netanyahus pro Zionist government Israel.

Exactly. The entirety of a group of people is not equal to the government of those people.

Ms. Omar does not have the temperament to be a long-term Member of Congress--she will be able to hold her tongue for only so long before another anti-Jew/anti-Israel statement gets blurted out. After being censured or reprimanded a few times, usually with a public apology, and she will lose her re-election bid--the Democratic Powers That Be will back some other candidate for that seat.

[Vraith]

Exactly. The entirety of a group of people is not equal to the government of those people.

Ms. Omar does not have the temperament to be a long-term Member of Congress--

she will be able to hold her tongue for only so long before another anti-Jew/anti-Israel statement gets blurted out.

After being censured or reprimanded a few times, usually with a public apology, and she will lose her re-election bid--the Democratic Powers That Be will back some other candidate for that seat.

On the first: precisely. MOST [likely all] of us here agree on that regardless of other disagreements.

On the second and third: you can't possibly know that, so it must be an opinion---but what have you seen/what do you know that grounds it?
[[[whataboutist insert---have you seen some of the shit that was thrown at her for no fucking reason before any of this??? No one cared about any of that]]].

On the last: is that an official prediction? Just cuz I've made some predictions other places around here about things in the next couple years. I'm planning to make a tracker of all the predictions I see by everyone, how they turn out.

[[If they DO throw her out for similar bad things, will anyone decide "Hey, the Dem party actually IS less asshat than the Rep party? like that would happen ]]

[Zarathustra]

Why do people just assume that Omar's comments were true, that AIPAC pays legislators to be pro-Israel? I suspect that this will be yet another in a long list of claims for which we'll never see any supporting evidence, just declarations that we must assume are true without evidence.

However:

. . .

But Omar's tweets Sunday also display common misconceptions about how the American Israel Public Affairs Committee operates.

"It's all about the Benjamins," Omar tweeted, explaining why the Republican House leader, Rep. Kevin McCarthy of California, was calling for action against her for a 7-year-old tweet with anti-Semitic overtones for which she had apologized multiple times. Asked to clarify who was paying the "Benjamins," or cash, Omar replied "AIPAC!"

That's a falsehood - AIPAC does not pay candidates or politicians. But there's more. Here's a look at how AIPAC operates.

Does AIPAC fund campaigns?

It does not, and cannot under the law. The "PAC" in AIPAC stands for public affairs committee, not political action committee. But it could more robustly insert itself into the political process if it wanted.

As a 501(c)(4) under the tax code, AIPAC is classified as a "social welfare" nonprofit as opposed to a 501(c)(3), a charitable nonprofit. That primarily means that donations to AIPAC are not tax deductible, but it also would allow AIPAC considerably more leeway under the law to "intervene" in elections, according to the IRS, than a 501(c)(3) - as long as such "interventions" do not comprise a majority of its activity.
. . .

[Vraith]

Why do people just assume that Omar's comments were true, that AIPAC pays legislators to be pro-Israel? I suspect that this will be yet another in a long list of claims for which we'll never see any supporting evidence, just declarations that we must assume are true without evidence.

However:

. . .

But Omar's tweets Sunday also display common misconceptions about how the American Israel Public Affairs Committee operates.

"It's all about the Benjamins," Omar tweeted, explaining why the Republican House leader, Rep. Kevin McCarthy of California, was calling for action against her for a 7-year-old tweet with anti-Semitic overtones for which she had apologized multiple times. Asked to clarify who was paying the "Benjamins," or cash, Omar replied "AIPAC!"

That's a falsehood - AIPAC does not pay candidates or politicians. But there's more. Here's a look at how AIPAC operates.

Does AIPAC fund campaigns?

It does not, and cannot under the law. The "PAC" in AIPAC stands for public affairs committee, not political action committee. But it could more robustly insert itself into the political process if it wanted.

As a 501(c)(4) under the tax code, AIPAC is classified as a "social welfare" nonprofit as opposed to a 501(c)(3), a charitable nonprofit. That primarily means that donations to AIPAC are not tax deductible, but it also would allow AIPAC considerably more leeway under the law to "intervene" in elections, according to the IRS, than a 501(c)(3) - as long as such "interventions" do not comprise a majority of its activity.
. . .

Now you're just playing...apparently not reading your own article of how it does things, nor tracked down other shit it does/who it spends on.

Little thing: if she criticizes AIPAC, it literally CAN't be anti-semitic, by her accusers own definition, because AIPAC isn't Semitic/Pro-semitic/Pro-Judaic...it's simply Pro-Israel.
On the deeper issue: fucking follow the Benjamins/donors, man. AIPAC takes mone from and gives money to bigots and anti-Islamic conspiracy people---even has them speak at their events.
And SHE isn't a murdering fucking bastard sponsoring terror...that would be our friend in Saudi Arabia.
She's an AMERICAN, elected to represent her DISTRICT.
And when, if ever, are you going to denounce the fuckers [at least 3 of them Rep. congressfolk, and 2 your friends at Fox] slinging all kinds of bigotted/anti-Islam shit at her, long before this tempest?

[Zarathustra]

Mr Reliable, the only thing you're reliable at is ignoring and/or changing the subject when you've been proven wrong.

You said:

And it's STILL true that the basis of what she said is accurate.

She said:

AIPAC pays politicians to be pro-Israel.

I just provided evidence that they don't. Now, if you don't concede that I've won this point, then provide your evidence that they do.

It really is that simple!

Little thing: if she criticizes AIPAC, it literally CAN't be anti-semitic, by her accusers own definition, because AIPAC isn't Semitic/Pro-semitic/Pro-Judaic...it's simply Pro-Israel.
On the deeper issue: fucking follow the Benjamins/donors, man. AIPAC takes mone from and gives money to bigots and anti-Islamic conspiracy people---even has them speak at their events.
And SHE isn't a murdering fucking bastard sponsoring terror...that would be our friend in Saudi Arabia.
She's an AMERICAN, elected to represent her DISTRICT.
And when, if ever, are you going to denounce the fuckers [at least 3 of them Rep. congressfolk, and 2 your friends at Fox] slinging all kinds of bigotted/anti-Islam shit at her, long before this tempest?

Hey, fucker-user*, none of that has anything to do with the point I made, which you ignored.

* [A term I've coined to describe one's language in a post, not a pejorative. So I'm not calling names, I'm describing verbiage. Literally: a person who uses "fucker" to an excessive degree, or "fucking," or "fuck me running," which apparently is okay to invite others to fuck you in a rude and implausible manner (but not sheep). Yes, one of our Mods implored me to fornicate with him while traveling at a brisk pace, and none of the Common Decency Brigade said a word! Weird.]

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Ms. Omar does not have the temperament to be a long-term Member of Congress--

On the second and third: you can't possibly know that, so it must be an opinion---but what have you seen/what do you know that grounds it?

Bar]sed on the things she had said since becoming elected, in addition to the little publicity stunt she pulled when she was sworn in--her and that traditional dress she wore. No one except her friends cared about her dress.

What has she really done that makes her a worthwhile, valuable Member of Congress? All she is at this time is a big mouth with easy access to the media.

[Orlion]

Now you're just playing...apparently not reading your own article of how it does things, nor tracked down other shit it does/who it spends on.

Little thing: if she criticizes AIPAC, it literally CAN't be anti-semitic, by her accusers own definition, because AIPAC isn't Semitic/Pro-semitic/Pro-Judaic...it's simply Pro-Israel.
On the deeper issue: fucking follow the Benjamins/donors, man. AIPAC takes mone from and gives money to bigots and anti-Islamic conspiracy people---even has them speak at their events.
And SHE isn't a murdering fucking bastard sponsoring terror...that would be our friend in Saudi Arabia
She's an AMERICAN, elected to represent her DISTRICT.
And when, if ever, are you going to denounce the fuckers [at least 3 of them Rep. congressfolk, and 2 your friends at Fox] slinging all kinds of bigotted/anti-Islam shit at her, long before this tempest?

Careful Vraith, the issue is exactly because AIPAC was depicted as a shadowy Jewish organization that bribes politicians. THAT was what made her statements problematic/anti-Semitic. Not that she criticized Israel (in this case, this was not the focus) or that AIPAC wielded too much power on how politicians view Israel (it's influence is declining as alternative lobbying groups have formed and Trump pretty much bypasses needing AIPAC's approval by going straight to Nethanyhu. )

She was pretty much responding to people subtweeting about why Republicans were threatening action against her for anti-Israel stance and she was repeating that tired old line about "follow the money". When asked to clarify "who's paying politicans to be pro-Israel" she responded (erroneously, because they don't fund candidates) AIPAC. She borderline said/potentially dog whistled that a Jewish lobby was bribing politicians. That's as bigoted as saying blacks are lazy. It's a racist trope.

I don't care about "well, at least she's not a murderer!" I want her to learn from her mistakes, which she hopefully does. We all pick up bigoted sayings in our environment and may repeat them without knowing how harmful they are. So when she tweeted this and I saw Jewish and Palestinian journalists commentate on how it was not an ok thing to say, I ought to actually listen to that. Because those who suffer from racial stereotypes are more sensitive to them and can recognize them better than I and Palestinians know that having anti-semitic folk on your side is not doing them favors.

Also, David Duke defended Omar with much the same line of "gee, how is criticizing Israel anti-Semitic". I don't care if broken clocks are right twice a day, I certainly don't want to say something that would cause THAT person to agree with me.

An article from a Jewish journalist who also accepted Omar's apology and explains pretty well what the issues are:

https://forward.com/opinion/419112/ilha ... tic-again/

[Vraith]

Hey, fucker-user*,

and none of the Common Decency Brigade said a word!

on the first...I'm cool with that.

on the second...not what that issue was about.

Careful Vraith, the issue is exactly because AIPAC was depicted as a shadowy Jewish organization that bribes politicians. THAT was what made her statements problematic/anti-Semitic.

I didn't see it as describing "shadowy Jewish"--AIPAC is pretty public and well-known for that.
And I don't think "All about the Benjamin's" plays on an anti-Semitic trope at all. I mean...I can see how it can be stretched to be that. But you kinda have to torture it. Really, it plays on the trope that politicians will vote your way if you've got cash. There are plenty of nasty anti-Semitic tropes out there already. Do we really need to create new ones? [[though mine isn't really the dominant interest here, and it's not aimed at me, so....

But it's not really relevant that AIPAC doesn't directly give to politicians. It's relevant what they DO spend money on, who they give it to, and its purposes. Not all of it is bad. But they are not innocent or even close.

Still---she apologized. And she's apparently very willing to accept and take into account the views/sensitivities of those she offended.

[Skyweir]

Absolutely V .. to my mind that is the sole take away.

Its reasoned and rational take on ... Its all about the Benjamins.

She maybe should have expressed it way better .. and has publicly apologised.

People today and likely the media shares a large part of the blame for sensationalising peoples fuck ups. The black face dude, this woman, the MAGA hat kids .. all storms in a tea cup .. that CAN be personally criticised.. but there are way more important actual shit to be concerned about imv

[SoulBiter]

Absolutely V .. to my mind that is the sole take away.

Its reasoned and rational take on ... Its all about the Benjamins.

She maybe should have expressed it way better .. and has publicly apologised.

People today and likely the media shares a large part of the blame for sensationalising peoples fuck ups. The black face dude, this woman, the MAGA hat kids .. all storms in a tea cup .. that CAN be personally criticised.. but there are way more important actual shit to be concerned about imv

Her colors are clear. We will hear more of this from her as time moves forward