Iraq

[danlo]

Well, it is the 3 Stooges' 75th year anniversary! WooBooBooop! Nuk, Nuk! Oh wise guy huh?

[Worm of Despite]

Well, looks like your sig. is straight from SRD's e-mail! Cool! Oh, and let's face it! Just like Covenant, Curly is the keystone to the Three Stooge's Arch of Time...yeah...um...

[Brinn]

Danlo,

I certainly agree that a certain measure of skepticism, especially when it comes to our elected leaders, is healthy but I'm getting lost in some of your statements. The broad issues and speculations you raise are difficult to dispute by their very nature. If you find this intellectual excercise stimulating and enjoy the debate I'll be happy to respond to some of the issues you have raised but, I must admit, that some of these issues are so broad in scope and complex that they are beyond my ability to dispute, at least without a 25 page treatise (and I've already written a couple of those on this board already )

I do suggest u go back 2 the Reagan years and the CIA in general, @ least. Reagan, Bush, Cheney and G.W. rn't saints either...Iran/Contra, CIA vs "Cubans" in Mozambique and Angola, our dealings w/Iran going back 2 the Nixon era...Turkey, Armenia, Afganistan, arming and supporting Iraq. The Iran/Iraq war...arms 4 hostages. Anti-muslim attitudes, treatment of the Palestinians, Libya, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Isreal's role and even Paskistan.

I won't dispute that our government has made some questionable decisions in the past but I don't see the relation to the current military action in Iraq. I have engaged in an exhaustive examination of the reasons behind the war and the alternatives to it and, IMHO, the forceful removal of Saddam is the least bad of several bad options (Gosh, war is such a difficult position to defend and I hope I'm not coming off as a bloodthirsty warhawk because that is certainly not my intent nor is it my nature!). I don't believe that an assassination was possible (unsuccesful attempts have been made most notably by the Mossad who have proven to be alot more effective at assassination than the US) and even if it was the political structure remains and another of Saddam's regime or inner circle would probably take his place.

[Brinn]

*Brinn finishes typing his post*

What?...Huh...The Three Stooges 75th Anniversary? What the hell am I doing typing stupid political posts when I could be paying tribute to the penultimate comedy trio of all time!

*Brinn lies on the floor on his side and begins running in a circle chanting "Moe, Larry, the cheese. Moe, Larry, the cheese!"*

[Guest]

yeah, you do come off as a warhawk.

[Brinn]

*Putting his toy guns and George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld action figures down*

Yeah but am I coming off with the right amount of Bloodthirstyness?

P.S.
You don't have to respond as a "guest" if you're a registered user. I promise I won't get angry. I'm over that! As a matter of fact I'm thinking of retiring from my post as the Watch's resident "Warhawk". I don't even like politics! Go figure....

[danlo]

I swear I'm not guest! Why Soitently! (It was a great special, btw...) Hey Warhawk! I say that in the kindest terms Brinn, u kno I'm w/u man! And I'm sorry I "used" u 2 set this dbate afire! Both of us will find this ultra-right wing horse.... very amusing!

From some group that calls itself; Warriors for Truth

Profiling ---rather--- Statistical Analysis Test
Answer the following questionairre then send it to Dick Cheney, George Bush, Hillary Clinton and Chuck Schumer
1-If you were a Radical Islamic Terrorist in the U.S. would you be most likely hiding and planning your attack from inside:
(a)- an Irish Neighborhood, (b)- a Chinese Neighborhood, (c)- a Spanish Neighborhood (d)- a Jewish Neighborhood
(e)-a Christian Neighborhood (f)- an Arab Neighborhood

2- Is it acceptable if U.S. authorities investigate INSIDE Mosques to uncover terrorist activities hidden under the quise of Religious Freedom? (Yes) (No)

3- Is it "Racial Profiling" to send investigators into specific Neighborhoods to politely question people about their background and the questionable activities of others: (Yes) (No)

4- IF you were in a neighborhood and noticed suspicious activity would you report it to local authorities (Yes) (No) (Maybe, but afraid I might be sued or targeted by the ACLU and Liberal Pinko Democrats)

5- If you were in a neighborhood and you noticed suspicious activity that eventually lead to killing innocent U.S. civilians would you consider yourself an accomplice: (Yes) ( No, My Religion says I am not allowed to pass judgement or give information on other Muslims) (No, My Religion says it's acceptable to murder innocents in a holy war)

If you live in any neighborhood and notice suspicious activity you can report it anonymously if you want. We acknowledge that a small percent of radical muslims have put a dark cloud over the majority. Speak up and voice your solidarity with the U.S.!
Your country needs you now more than ever.

U.S. to bomb Lebanon if homicide bombers attack civilians in the U.S. ? Will we?
Bush must make a crystal clear world wide statement about the consequences of attacking the U.S. NOW!!!

Our Commander in Chief said, "Any country that harbor terrorists will be treated as terrorists."
U.S. officials revealed that during one of many terrorist meetings in Lebanon, three groups discussed tactics and the possibility of an unprecedented level of joint activity, including a possible new round of attacks against America, Great Britain, and other targets. The March secret summit marks the first time bin Laden's group put aside rivalries to work with others terrorist organizations, officials said. It suggests a new departure which is very startling and dangerous because they have not worked together before. U.S. intelligence and law enforcement officials reported that leaders of al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden's terror network, met in a summit with leaders of two Middle Eastern militant groups, Hamas and Hezbollah, as well as a number of other groups linked to terrorism for the first time in late March.Hamas has claimed responsibility for many of the suicide bomb attacks against Israel. Lebanon-based Hezbollah led a guerrilla war against Israel's occupation of territory in southern Lebanon, and is blamed for the 1983 bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, Lebanon, that killed 241 American servicemen.
A strong offense goes along with a strong defense.
We believe the U.S. should attack...before we are attacked again. Time to strike the terrorist camps in Lebanon as a first strike of offense. Forget the threats of Oil Embargos from the Arab terrorist sympathizers. Let them come out from under their rocks. Let them take sides now and show the world if they are with us, against us or neutral. Now that they have the oil money...some are proposing radical ideas such as forced Superiority of their Religion and terrorist threats for positioning in the World.

"Let's get ready to rumble." Better now than a few years from now when Saddam and Yassar have biological and nuclear weapons. "Let's rumble now." After the sand settles, we can take back what we built in the sandy deserts and dish out the oil to any that fight against us. For our current predicament...You can thank spineless Republicans fearing and being bashed by the Liberal Media, the tree hugging oil polluting environmentalists, wacko Liberal Democrats and Organizations like the ACLU.
8 years of cutting the military and stalling on issues like national defense, stopping and slowing oil drilling in the U.S., Way Out Political Correctness and Radical Racial Profiling Laws have made the U.S. a terrorists vacation paradise. Florida recently allowed a Muslim to wear a face covering when being photographed for a Drivers License.

Is a barrel of oil worth more a child? What if it's your child or mother that is exploded into little pieces in a shopping mall?
What if it actually happens? Will it take that insane atrocity to make you wake up! Is there a specific number of children and innocent civilians that need to be murdered first, before our Government reacts? Will it have to be 57 dead children...or 100....or 3000 more dead like in the World Trade Center?

Our Commander in Chief said, "Any country that harbor terrorists will be treated as terrorists." The terrorists are acting like they believe they were just words to satisfy an angry but weak Nation. It's time to go on the offensive. We need to send them to their evil destiny now and not when it's too late for many innocent civilians...again!!!

If you are a Liberal Sicko Pinko -No Racial Profiling the Arabs - Politically Correct - No Oil Drilling in Alaska - Protect the Tit Bird -Gun Control Advocate- You won't be able to just hide under your bed from the boogey man radical muslims punks who believe in the Devil and can't wait to go to Hell. They're coming to get you!!! Even if You Don't go out!!! Poof!!! They're gonna get you... even though you fought and lied and changed the laws to protect them. Say Hello to the real upcoming terrorist

oooh, that must be me! **shudder**

[birdandbear]

Oh my God how utterly terrifying! People like this are what happened to the Jews!

1-If you were a Radical Islamic Terrorist in the U.S. would you be most likely hiding and planning your attack from inside:
(a)- an Irish Neighborhood, (b)- a Chinese Neighborhood, (c)- a Spanish Neighborhood (d)- a Jewish Neighborhood
(e)-a Christian Neighborhood (f)- an Arab Neighborhood

2- Is it acceptable if U.S. authorities investigate INSIDE Mosques to uncover terrorist activities hidden under the quise of Religious Freedom? (Yes) (No)

3- Is it "Racial Profiling" to send investigators into specific Neighborhoods to politely question people about their background and the questionable activities of others: (Yes) (No)

4- IF you were in a neighborhood and noticed suspicious activity would you report it to local authorities (Yes) (No) (Maybe, but afraid I might be sued or targeted by the ACLU and Liberal Pinko Democrats)

5- If you were in a neighborhood and you noticed suspicious activity that eventually lead to killing innocent U.S. civilians would you consider yourself an accomplice: (Yes) ( No, My Religion says I am not allowed to pass judgement or give information on other Muslims) (No, My Religion says it's acceptable to murder innocents in a holy war)

I feel sick

[Brinn]

I hear you Treehugger (Ooops! Not you B&B, I'm referring to Danlo of course!)

I was debating a humorous response but this kind of Radical-Right rhetoric doesn't deserve a response. I detest rhetoric and pandering and unfortunately the national (and international) dialogue on current events has been degenerating to this level. That's why I like this board so much...The discussion is intelligent and insightful without the knee-jerk opposition and name-calling that is often found on the internet.

Sincerely,

The Warhawk

[danlo]

The real scary part is that this kind of stuff is all over the web. What really pisses me off is that now everybody's looking at everybody out on the streets all the time like, r u anit-war, r u pro war, r u a muslim, r u a terrorist? Everybody's getting very angry at every1 else..it's disturbing.

[The Leper Fairy]

Wow...

I went through and read some of those posts... I realized that I am a very ignorant person...

Though what I absolutely cannot stand is people who quote their parents (I'm 15) and that's all they know. I watch the news and I come to my own conclusions about things, sure sometimes they are very similar to my parents but we also disagree too. On a chairlift once I was talking to 2 guys from my school. By then end off it they were calling me Treehugger like it's a bad thing. One even said "Oh and I bet you're a DEMOCRAT too!" The best arguement they could come up with against democrats was "They want to outlaw my guns!" Good Lord...

Sometimes I hear people saying we are at war with Iraq because of Sept 11th... But wasn't it Bin Laden that did that? Not Suddam? Grrr...

I believe that this war wouldn't be as bad if we had the rest (or at least a good portion) of the world with us. By attacking Iraq all by oursleves (for the most part) we are setting ourselves apart and we begin to look like a bloodthirsty war-mongering nation. That could instill fear in other countries, and with fear comes hate.

[Worm of Despite]

So true! "Fear leads to anger . . .anger leads to hate . . .hate leads to . . .suffering" *Bows head reverently*

[Damelon]

That could instill fear in other countries, and with fear comes hate.

The hate existed before, otherwise 9/11, the USS Cole, and the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania wouldn't have happened.

[Brinn]

If your interested Leper Fairy, there are a couple of very interesting threads in the "Think Tank". One is on "pre-emptive action" and the other is a debate about the UN. There are very informative viewpoints on both sides of the issues and you might find them interesting. Certainly there is nothing wrong with having democratic views or being a "treehugger" for that matter (Please realize that I called Danlo that as a humorous response to his reference to me as "Warhawk" and I meant no offense.). The important thing is that you continue to approach the issues as you always have, with an open mind and a desire to learn. Reject the labels of "democrat" and "republican" and form your own unique opinions as they hold the same weight and value as anyone else's.

[Skyweir]

This war has been brought about through a failure of diplomacy but that failure lies not with the US.

I must stringently disagree .. this decision to war was made by the Bush administration. They may laud reasons of 'no choice' .. but there are always other choices .. Sure you may deem that Hussein's time had lapsed .. there was nor has ever been satisfactory reasons given for the haste to war ..

Pointing fingers at the French Russians and Chinese is futile imho .. they are not responsible for the Bush administrations adopted agenda from GeorgeW's inception into office .. this was always his determination .. it didnt matter a hoot .. what Iraq did or didnt do .. he was resolute in this path imho .. and is totally responsible for this war .. and ignoring international protocols in respect of launching this aggression.

And at the end of the day .. Operation Iraqi Freedom!! puhlease! and all the other propagandised bull we are getting fed with .. Bush imho .. is not doing this for the poor Iraqi poulation .. to aid them in their plight ..

He has slept well for through countless opportunities to assist these people .. what this action has done .. in the name of 'Iraqi Freedom' is raising the risk for the Iraqi people of sure and violent death .. from either side of the equation .. either way .. the risk of violent death has been heightened .. by the launching of this aggression ..

Sure something positive may come out of it .. lets hope so .. better to hope for a positive outcome .. than otherwise .. its all we can do now ..

but I cant help wondering .. at what cost?? Well casualties of war are an inevitability .. and indeed they are .. thats a given .. so yay for war!! I dont think so .. there has got to be a better option .. you'd think?

So thats not an optimum result or optimum cost .. but how much more unacceptable if it is my father or my son or my brother .. is that a cost I am prepared to pay? I dont know .. maybe? And the millions of tax dollars to exhaust the US arms stockpile .. and then the future millions invested in the reconstructed what was destructed .. I dont know .. I have to think a bit more on this ..

but I do know .. if it was my father lost .. nothing could be worth for me that loss .. an Iraqi woman who loses her son or baby? Will she think .. that was an acceptable sacrifice for supposed 'freedom'? Suicide lunatics aside .. just the ordinary person in the street who loves their children as much as we love our loved ones ... *shrugs* I dont know ..

I see a process that had been in operation .. in which there was no reported breach on Iraq's part .. Suspected non-compliance - is not proven non-compliance .. no matter what the Bush administration would have us accept .. we either act within the law or throw it away .. we cant claim right if we dont abide by the principles that establish 'right'.

Yes we have seen Iraq under UN resolutions for nigh on a decade and a half .. but UN involvement was suspended for the vast majority of that time .. I think it is unjust to claim this sense of urgency now after a relatively short time of the return of UN inspection process .. Blix and el Barade both were surprised and visibly disappointed at their missions premature interruption!

I dont believe Iraq is in any way competent to pose any visceral threat to the US .. not then or now .. and not sufficient to justify resorting to IMMEDIATE aggression..

The war on Iraq was never imminent .. it was inevitable! It was a predetermined resolve by George W .. a resolve that was formed long before he got to the oval office..

I see the media reports of al-sahaf the information minister .. who is pathetically optimistic .. clearly in the face of utter doom .. either he just oblivious to reality .. or is an amazing actor ..

then I see the even more pathetic scene of resistance fighters riding on clapped out trucks .. wearing their civillian clothing .. no body armour - and holding and waving about what seem to be archaic assault rifles, spetsnaz and pistols .. shouting and yelling in the back of the trucks!!

going out to meet an armed company of the US military in tanks and armed with high power armaments .. I feel like weeping .. there is no doubt of the outcome ..

al-sahif .. is a funny character .. quite possibly a monster in his own right .. but I watch him whenever I can .. because of his resolve and unbelievable manner .. he calls Bush & co's .. 'rascals' and a 'thugs' .. you'd think he'd realise how unoffensive his insults are .. I have become accustomed to him .. and I know .. he is going to be on the decidedly unfriendly end of a bullet ..

the US I dont expect will hand over the uper echelons of the regime to war crimes trial .. I think they'll be executed there and then ..

Even though these may be monsters .. and I dont know much about al-sahaf (sp?) .. he is more than likely deserving of a cold exacting execution .. but I prefer he given due process .. not a vigilante execution ..

again if we ignore 'right' .. we turn our backs on justification .. we turn our backs on our humanity .. and open a door to an uncertain future ..

[Brinn]

Good evening All,

For any of you that care, I will be posting my next response in the "Watch's Majority" thread. The three threads on Preemption, the UN, and the Watch's Majority are beginning to hit the same points and for that reason I will confine my comments to the "Majority" thread because it appears to have the best participation from others.

I'll see you there Sky!

[Dag son of Dag]

Don`t take it for granted that it actually IS a chemical weapons facility.

And also, doesn`t the US have a lot of nerve gas and such, and don`t they research a lot into it? Not to speak of the nuclear weapons..
Maybe we should invade `em.

[Skyweir]

lols rofl lmao!! oh good gravy that was a good one

[[Syl]]

Does it? Research, research, research.

Here's a jumping off point: army base outside of Tooele, Utah.

[Worm of Despite]

Well, it looks like all of our support for the troops worked. We overthrew Saddam. I was overjoyed when I saw the footage of American soldiers draping Old Glory over the Saddam statue. The Iraqis really seemed to love it. It's so great that they're not poor or oppressed anymore. Good job, everyone!