Lowering the age of consent

[dennisrwood]

i would think that as both 12 year olds are nonconsensual we are to automatically blame the boy? wow. so two children the same age, we are to assign guilt based on gender. wow.

[Avatar]

Thats exactly what they were trying to remedy when they proposed that change to the law. As Vs said though, the question has been tabled for now.

How do we prevent things like that, and still protect the children from those who would abuse them? It's the slippery slope. The problem is that no revision can deal with every possible circumstance, becuase we can't think of every possible circumstance.

The very fact that children of such ages are consesually engaing in sex was never envisaged by the people who put that law into place.

--Avatar

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Wow, definately that gender thing is a can of worms on its own. I think in ohio, rape goes by penetration (i.e. it is impossible for a woman to rape a man) now that can be argued of course, generally through physics *grin* but it becomes complicated when you get to intoxication. Any intercourse that happens when someone is intoxicated can be considered rape. At my college, us guys were warned that if we were with a girl, and we were both drunk, and we both decided to have sex, the girl could successfully accuse us of rape regardless of her willingness at the time, even if we were both intoxicated. Which made me paranoid, to say the least But back to the point.... I still definately support the idea of laws preventing consenting children from having sex with adults...
Have we discussed what the 'age of consent' means, and how to determine what that age is? i.e. when someone is responsible enough and old enough to effectively consent to something? That can get complicated. What's kidnapping, if someone who can consent to having sex at 12 can also consent to get into some random crazie's car?

[Skyweir]

I think that the context in which it was first brought up as a question here, was that it was considered in order to end the admittedly ridiculous practice of prosecuting younger children for what was plainly consensual sex. Below the age, it's considered statutory rape, regardless of whether or not it was consensual.

Unfortunately, keeping it illegal to have sex at twelve will have no real effect on the number of people doing it. People will act as they wish, usually regardless of what the law says about it. And I thin k that hat probably goes double for children, who may only have a shaky conception of why the law exists anyway.

--Avatar

The reason this law even exists is to protect children under the age of consent.

This controversial label is given to describe the lack of maturity present in children under the age of 16 - in general terms. sure there are no doubt individuals who are 15 and even 11 who possess unusually great maturity.

The questions to be asked is not just are they able to be sexually active .. the law is not so naive to think that is NOT the case .. The law acknowledges that children are quite capable of engaging in sexual activity ..

The issue is are they mature enough?? Is a 12 year old mature enough to consent to sexual intercourse??

That may sound simplistic .. but think about it and even canvas 12 year olds .. when a female becomes sexually active - it is recommended that they subject themselves to a pap smear every 12 months. Is the 12 year old you intend to have sexual intercourse mature enough to handle taking themselves of their own volition to a complete stranger (medical practitioner) and endure a pap smear?

If pregnancy ensues .. is the 12 year old you intend to have sex with mature enough to deal with a pregnancy? child birth and parenting a dependant??

Is the 12 year old boy mature enough to accept responsibility for all consequences that may result because of his sexual activity .. including conception?

This law is to protect 12 year olds

If 2 12 year olds are caught and charged with "sexual intercourse with a minor" or "unlawful sexual intercourse" .. they would both be charged! and more than likely not prosecuted .. in that instance! Because it would be purely ridiculous!! And that law does not exist for that purpose but to protect minors!!

Its not a nasty bad law that doesnt care about the rights of minors .. the intent is to protect minors from abuse.

LEGALISE SEX WITH MINORS .. BY LOWERING THE AGE OF CONSENT .. AND YOU WILL OPEN UP A WINDOW WHEREBY THIS "LIBERTY" WILL BE ABUSED .. BY THOSE WITH THE PRESUMED MATURITY TO KNOW BETTER.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

My, that was rather cryptic... but maybe justifiably so.
I just think this could be dealt with in a different way than it is now, that the law doesn't need to set a minimum legal age for two people to have sex, but rather a law that punishes those that would sexually abuse/take advantage of the young directly... but then, I'm not wholly supporting any lowering of the age of consent either. But it never stopped me.

[Skyweir]

My, that was rather cryptic... but maybe justifiably so.
I just think this could be dealt with in a different way than it is now, that the law doesn't need to set a minimum legal age for two people to have sex, but rather a law that punishes those that would sexually abuse/take advantage of the young directly... but then, I'm not wholly supporting any lowering of the age of consent either. But it never stopped me.

It may have been cryptic I will re-read it after this .. LOL .. I am trying to make this quick!

Now may I propose that your comments too are a little like .. hedging a bet each way.

Allow me to explain: You dont think the law should dictate to persons when they are legally able to engage in sexual activity .. AND .. thus you dont think the LAW should apply a minimum age!

BUT .. you want a medium available to punish those who abuse this non-instrumental principle!

I'm afraid that is not practicable .. if you want to protect minors from being victims to sexual abuse .. then in order to assure that protection you legislate against: sexual activity in that range that is more vulnerable to abuse. Minors!

sorry .. but if protecting minors is the goal removing this legislative taboo .. is not the way to do it!

imho

[dennisrwood]

my problem is that if two 12 year olds are caught having sex, that the male would be prosecuted for sex with a minor. when they are both minors. to label a 12 year old a sexual predator when the two are the same age. sex is not just penetration. coercion can work both ways. i shudder to think that we will one day just label men as predators and not even look for facts on a case by case basis.

[Skyweir]

my problem is that if two 12 year olds are caught having sex, that the male would be prosecuted for sex with a minor. when they are both minors. to label a 12 year old a sexual predator when the two are the same age. sex is not just penetration. coercion can work both ways. i shudder to think that we will one day just label men as predators and not even look for facts on a case by case basis.

this is an inaccuracy dennis .. if 2 minors are charged with an offense realated to their having sex .. the male isnt singled out and prosecuted and the female not.

this is beyond injustice! As a police officer the law was never applied in this ridiculous manner. More than likely neither of them would be prosecuted ..

The intent of the law is to protect a vulnerable class of persons .. namely minors! the clear intent is to protect 'minors' from the sexual predator ..

The law will and does not just label men sexual predators. Women are equally liable for being charged with sexual abuse, rape etc.. Yes less are .. but it is a fact that most persons charged with rape are male.

The law regardless of our born cynicism is just ..

[ZefaLefeLaH]

The law will and does not just label men sexual predators. Women are equally liable for being charged with sexual abuse, rape etc.. Yes less are .. but it is a fact that most persons charged with rape are male.

The law regardless of our born cynicism is just ..

Hmm...

I tend to disagree with this statement, although I understand your desire to fight the injustice of "justice".

Let's say you have a black man, a white woman, a white male, and an indian woman all accused of simular rape crimes.

Without knowing any of the evidence at all, I can tell you that the men both get sentenced and do time & that the women are both given probation. More importantly, I can tell you that the black man & the indian women's sentences are harsher than the white man & white woman.

Is this right? Is this just? Of course not. Don't be naive. A woman will almost never get the same punishment as a man for the same crime. 99.9% of the time, the man does the time & the woman walks away from the crime.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

So let's say I type something like "I agree with Zeph". Does the world then end? The earths rotation ceases, and I'm flung from the earth's surface by the resulting momentum, yes?
Hehehe
Let's try it. I agree with Zeph.



Ok, still here? Still here.
Moving on. I think the racial disparity in terms of sentancing is definately there, and definately able to be shown statistically. Let's say the ages were 12 and 13, or 10 and 12... maybe the guy wouldn't be implicated in the case where they are both twelve, but if you put a year or two between them, I don't think it'd be surprising.

[ZefaLefeLaH]

I agree with Zeph.

You just won. And the prize is that I will be nice to everyone all day today no matter what I read. If I don't have something nice to say, I won't say it at all; and more importantly I won't save it for tomorrow.

Also, I quit drinking at the end of the year. That will help quite a bit. I'm not an angry drunk in real life, very quiet actually, even after a 1/5th & 4 beers; but for some reason I get really mad when I see stuff here. Alot of people would say, then don't come here when you're drunk. But I'm drunk most of the time so that's not very fair.

26 more days. 25 if you erase this one, because you WON!

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Hahahaha!
Excellent. I am victorious!

[Creator]

...

Also, I quit drinking at the end of the year. That will help quite a bit. I'm not an angry drunk in real life, very quiet actually, even after a 1/5th & 4 beers; but for some reason I get really mad when I see stuff here. Alot of people would say, then don't come here when you're drunk. But I'm drunk most of the time so that's not very fair.

I wish you well with your efforts. And victory over all the demons you struggle with.

[dennisrwood]

men are not labeled sexual predators? where have you been? rape is predicated on penetration in most places. we have a subculture in America that says all sex is rape. and yes, here in Texas we have had 17 year old males arrested for having sex with younger girls. most of these cases have in involved Mexicans. in their own culture a 17 year old boy can marry a 14 year old girl. just had a case prosecuted this year for it. the mother of the girl wanted to prsecute and then recanted when the girl eneded up pregnant. the couple married with her blessing, but the law still sent him to prison. he's with us and his wife and baby are at home. how many women left their babies in hot cars before we started prosecuting? susan smith was believed, i told my wife she did it minutes after seeing the story for the first time. Andrea Yates was being defended because her husband was the real criminal, we heard tell. when that woman ran over her husband near her, people were lauding her. should i go on? women have killed and raped, but our society still sees them as frail. i could give many examples. but the point is that women are still seen as victims. Karla Faye Tucker was lauded as reformed, but many men in her position got no media play. i am not some caveman. but we need to be honest. part of becoming better people is to let loose of all the old stereotypes. based on race, gender, creed, sexual orientation, religion, whatever.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

I don't want to turn this into a woman bashing session, but this is a hot subject for me. First of all, I'm male, and I've been a feminist since I realized that there was still a difference in how the sexes were treated (this took a while, since I wasn't raised that way and when my dad said something like 'that's womens work' he was telling a joke that would always elicit laughter from my mother). I've read a few great books on the subject, I recommend especially Elaine Showalter's Sexual Anarchy, and the Manifesta....
I think there are some women that don't understand that a great deal of men are ready to move forward on gender equality... I think the number of women who want to retain gender roles is about the same as the number of men.
That may seem unbelievable, but you have to take middle/rural america into consideration, and realize that they have as much a right to keep their gender subordination as some of us want to abolish it. That being said, the song "I am a Man" by Alanis Morissette is a very good song on the subject. All the girls I have ever dated have been feminists, and the first issue we generally have to deal with in those relationships is trying to convince them that they don't need to be paranoid of 'mannish' behaviour in me.
I think we do live in a rape culture, I just think it's reflected on both sides of the gender wall. You can definately say that most of the highpaying jobs are in the hands of old, white men, but you need to understand that those are OTHER old white men, a tiny tiny little fraction of the male population. Too often I see a woman who has sacrificed her feminine side to focus on her masculinity, to succeed in the capitalist world. As someone who has tended to my feminine side with great efforts, to find a balance between intuition and control (two of the symbols I use to distinguish the two sides of my personality) I feel like this is going to do a lot of harm to the western world, and push the feminine virtues of nurturing, and emotional reflection and focus, to the wayside.


Wow, I didn't realize I'd rant on that long. I'm sorry if I offended anyone, it turned into a sort of venting. Those are some opinions that are socially unacceptable in the circles I moved in, and I apologize to anyone who reads that and gets irritated. It was also my first post of the day. And it was totally off topic. Oh well,

-Jem

[Plissken]

And so, of course, I'm going to continue the off-topic rant...

I'm the kind of feminist that most feminists don't like: One that believes that if gender equality is ever going to become fact, women are going to have to take full responsiblity for themselves, their bodies, and their actions. The constant claim of victimization isn't going to cut it, if women want be seen as the heroes of their own stories.

I have argued with feminists that have argued, in the same paragraph, that men are useless beasts who couldn't tie their shoes without doing something violent, and that men have successfully created a society with the sole purpose of holding down half the population.

I have listened to rants that have simultaniously condemmed masculine agression and bemoaned the lack of acceptance of an aggressive female.

I have been called "just" a man for suggesting that equal gender responsibility for reproductive rights, economic considerations, and social parity might be a good idea.

And Jem, I also have dated mostly women who were feminists. And I'm tired.

I'm tired, to the point that "The Stepford Wives" has almost become a fetish film for me.

I'm tired of trying to understand how gender equality has gotten to the point where it doesn't mean raising women up, it just means grinding men down. I'm tired of being told that the "Uncle Ben Maxim" ("With power comes responsibility.") doesn't apply to the "oppressed" majority.

I'm tired of being cussed at for pointing out that decades of voting rights, even when coupled with a majority of voting age females, hasn't resulted in being able to keep a Presindent from appointing an FDA Department Chair who believes that prayer is an effacatious remedy for PMS, much less electing a female President.

I'm tired of the idea responsibility for "Choice" equaling a call for repression.

But mostly, I'm tired of being expected to be "seen, but not heard" whenever the wimminfolk are talking about how their voices aren't heard.

Don't misunderstand - I don't actually WANT a Stepford Wife. I don't hate women. I just wish that there were more of them, and I don't consider a female who cries "But you're not being FAIR!" every time a flaw in logic is pointed out to be a woman. Neither do I consider someone who counters the idea of personal resposibility with a diatribe on how things "should" be to be an adult.

I love women. It's the whining little girls I'm weary of.

[CovenantJr]

I'm tired of trying to understand how gender equality has gotten to the point where it doesn't mean raising women up, it just means grinding men down.

Well said.

I love women. It's the whining little girls I'm weary of.

And again.

[ChoChiyo]

JemCheeta and Plissken...both well said. I suppose I could be labeled a feminist--I believe both sexes should be treated fairly under the law and that, male or female, a person should be responsible for their actions. I plan to support and campaign and vote for Hillary when she runs.

In my opinion, she rocks.

But regarding feminism, my primary belief is that if we all just treated each other fairly, age, gender, race, sexual preference, etc., regardless, we'd all be much happier.

Working in alternative education, I live in a Happy Land where we all treat each other well. The tall science teacher (male) came in to lift my heavy box for me, and the (male) special ed teacher came in to ask me to fix a rip in the math teacher's pants (also male) while he hung out in the bathroom waiting for it to be done. Were those gender stereo types? Perhaps--but it was also necessity. I couldn't lift that box. I suppose the math teacher could have sewed the rip if I gave him the tools, but I could do it quicker and better than he could because I am an experienced seamstress.

It is just people helping each other as they are able.

I know the whole world won't ever be that way, but wouldn't it be nice if it could?

By the way, the male math teacher is one of the best cooks I've ever known.

I don't really label myself as a feminist...I just try to be a good, responsible, upright person. I don't think either gender has the upper hand in morality or power or whatever characteristic is under discussion. It's the individual.

Edit: Sorry if this is a little rambling and confused...I have a fever....bleah.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

I always feel odd about expressing these opinions because they're generally of primarily personal value, and personal vindication. They don't really serve any good except a personal one. It would be a good sentiment to express to a significant other who seemed to be weighing down on you with anti-male sentiment, but not do a lot of good for women or men as a whole, because our case is a minority one.... but I did want to put up the alanis morisette song I liked, then abandon this line of conversation


I am a man as a man I've been told
Bacon is brought to the house in this mold
Born of your bellies I yearn for the cord
Years I have groveled repentance ignored

And I have been blamed
And I have repented
I'm working my way toward our union mended

I am man who has grown from a son
Been crucified by enraged women
I am son who was raised by such men
I'm often reminded of the fools I'm among

And I have been shamed
And I have relented
I'm working my way toward our union mended
And I have been shamed
And I have repented
I'm working my way toward our union mended

we don't fare well with endless reprimands
we don't do well with a life served as a sentence
this won't work well if you're hell bent on your offence
I am a man who understands your resistance

I am a man who still does what he can
to dispel our archaic reputation
I am a man who has heard all he can
cuz I don't fare well with endless punishment

Cuz I have been blamed and I have repented
I'm working my way toward our union mended
And we have been blamed and we have repented
I'm working my way toward our union mended

[Plissken]

Good song, Jem, but I disagree with the idea that this issue is best left on the personal level. I can't help but feel that much of recent politics is due to disinfranchised men taking a misguided "stand" on the wrong issues, due to the fact that they've been made to feel that everything they feel is either irrelevant or evil.

Think about it:

Gay Rights are being blocked, largely because gay men are the visceral extention of what women want men to be (from a straight guy perspective), and because, from that perspective, gay sex is a lil' icky.

Abortion Rights are being attacked - think it has anything to do with guys wanting a say in reproductive issues? I will contend that, if men were allowed to determine what they want to do with their lives on a "personal" level, they'd have less interest in interfering with women's lives on a legislative one.

Finally, let's face it: We elected a stuttering, insecure, war-mongering cowboy-wannabe to the highest office in the land, despite the demonstrated corruption and incompetence of his administration. After decades of being told that men are all stuttering, insecure, war-mongering, corrupt, incompetent cowboy-wannabe's, I think there might be some tranferrence at work.

The pendulum is swinging back again. If men and women tried working together, instead of against each other, maybe we could stop it in the middle instead of letting it go all the way back to the 50's before we get another shot at it.