Are We Losing the War in Afghanistan?

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Are We Losing the War in Afghanistan?

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www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0914afg ... s0914.html
U.S.-led coalition losing Afghanistan

Don Melvin
Cox News Service
Sept. 14, 2006 12:00 AM


LONDON - Almost five years after a U.S.-led coalition attacked Afghanistan in response to the 9/11 attacks, experts warn that the country is slipping away.

The Islamic fundamentalist Taliban are back, controlling half the country by some estimates. Fighting in the south is some of the fiercest that Western troops have faced in 50 years.

On Wednesday, NATO announced that suicide bombings have killed 173 people in the country this year amid an escalation of violence that has seen at least 40 militants slain and an aid worker gunned down.

Beyond that, opium production has soared almost 60 percent this year, according to the U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime. And extreme poverty is driving people back into the arms of the Taliban, according to a European think tank.

In short, many international experts think that the war on terror is on the verge of being lost in Afghanistan while the U.S. forces grapple with continuing problems in Iraq.

"The U.S. has lost control in Afghanistan and has in many ways undercut the new democracy in Afghanistan," said Emmanuel Reinert, executive director of the Senlis Council, a policy research group with offices in London, Paris, Brussels and Afghanistan.

"I think we can call that a failure, and one with dire consequences which should concern us all. The U.S. policies in Afghanistan have re-created the safe haven for terrorism that the 2001 invasion aimed to destroy."

This is a startling reversal from the early heady days. The initial victory came quickly after U.S.-led offensive began on Oct. 7, 2001. Kabul, the capital, fell on Nov. 13. A few days later, most of the country was under the control of the coalition and its Afghan partners, the Northern Alliance.

But things have begun to go very wrong. Violence has flared, particularly in the southern provinces of Kandahar, Helmand, Uruzgan and Zabul. In June, an American-led force of 11,000 troops launched the biggest offensive against Taliban insurgents in Afghanistan since 2001, in a push named Operation Mountain Thrust.

The result has been fighting that American and British officers have described as ferocious. An analysis of coalition casualty figures from May 1 to Aug. 12 by the U.K.-based Royal Statistical Society showed that an average of five coalition soldiers were killed by the Taliban every week, twice as many as during the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

Afghanistan, a mountainous country of 31 million people that is slightly smaller than Texas, has long been a graveyard for foreign troops. Most recently, in 1989, the Soviet Union pulled out after nine years of trying to control the country ended in failure.

On Aug. 1 of this year, 8,000 NATO forces took military control in the south from the U.S.-led coalition. But the situation has not stabilized. NATO commanders are calling for up to 2,500 more troops to augment the 18,500 already there, along with greater air support.

U.S. Gen. James Jones, NATO's supreme allied commander, said the alliance's 26 nations had failed to deliver fully on commitments to staff and equip its force in the country. He said much of the international strategy for Afghanistan's reconstruction was on "life support," the Financial Times newspaper reported.

Foreign ministers from the alliance's 26 member nations will meet in New York next week to discuss NATO's operation in Afghanistan. But so far, the London-based Times newspaper reported, citing unnamed sources, most NATO countries have balked at the thought of sending more troops. Only tiny Latvia is reported to have responded positively, promising to increase its troop presence in Afghanistan from 36 to 56.

Just as violence has increased, opium cultivation has also reached record levels. The U.N. Office on Drugs and Crimes reported this month that about 408,000 acres are now being used to grow opium, up 59 percent this year alone. In 2001, during the last year of Taliban rule, the figure was less than 20,000 acres

The Taliban cracked down on opium cultivation then, but now may be thriving on it. Revenue from the harvest is expected to be over $3 billion this year, said Antonio Maria Costa, the head of the Office on Drugs and Crime.

Reinert, of the Senlis Council, believes that efforts to eradicate opium cultivation are part of the reason the U.S.-led coalition has lost the battle for the hearts and minds of the Afghan population.

Farmers whose crops have been forcibly eradicated often have no other means of feeding their families, he said.

"There is a really huge humanitarian crisis in southern Afghanistan," he said. "I have never seen that in Afghanistan before. It's like Darfur. That's like 15 minutes away from the Canadian camp in Kandahar."

While the coalition eradication effort fuels anger, Reinert said, the Taliban, using "social-service tactics," respond to the needs of the poor, compensating farmers whose opium has been eradicated by the coalition.

www.mlive.com/newsflash/international/i ... ernational
NATO chief: More troops for Afghanistan
9/15/2006, 10:46 p.m. ET
By PAUL AMES
The Associated Press

BRUSSELS, Belgium (AP) — NATO's top commander renewed an appeal Friday for allies to urgently provide up to 2,500 troops for the battle with Taliban insurgents in southern Afghanistan, but officials said it likely would take two weeks before governments reply.

Gen. James L. Jones told a closed meeting of ambassadors from the 26 NATO allies that Poland's welcome offer of 900 troops in February had not diminished the immediate need for more troops, planes and helicopters, according to officials at NATO headquarters.

Diplomats said they expected the call for more troops to feature at a meeting of allied foreign ministers Thursday in New York, but said decisions likely will have to wait until defense ministers gather Sept. 28-29 in Slovenia.

They said governments needed time to assess what forces they could make available, to test political support for deployment and to find funding for such a mission.

Officials spoke on condition of anonymity because the meeting was closed.

Canada announced Friday that it was sending tanks and about 200 more soldiers to Afghanistan, bringing its total commitment to 2,500 troops.

Last week, Jones said the reinforcements were needed to pursue the Taliban before the onset of winter enabled them to take refuge in the hills.

Allies have been reluctant to commit forces, as they already are stretched by other international missions and are worried about the risk of high casualties from the tough Taliban resistance.

Although key allies such as Spain, Italy and Turkey have said they would not send combat troops, NATO commanders said they were confident of eventually getting the reinforcements. The delay, however, meant they had less time to be effective before the snows set in.

NATO has about 20,000 troops in Afghanistan. Most are engaged in peacekeeping and reconstruction efforts in the north and west, but since July about 8,000 troops — mostly from Britain, Canada, the Netherlands and the United States — have pushed into the Taliban's southern heartland.

They have been surprised by the ferocity of Taliban resistance and have sustained more than 30 deaths. NATO has said, however, that enemy casualties run into hundreds, and Jones told the ambassadors that an ongoing campaign to push the Taliban out of two key districts west of Kandahar was going well.

NATO Secretary Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said the possibility of speeding up the Polish deployment was being negotiated. Diplomats said funding from other allies could help facilitate an earlier deployment, and perhaps encourage other financially strapped eastern European nations to participate.

Canada's Defense Department said the reinforcements it was sending include an infantry company, a squadron of about 15 Leopard tanks, some military engineers to bolster Canada's provincial reconstruction team and a special anti-mortar unit.

The Canadian infantry will help protect the provincial reconstruction team while the tanks will provide some heavy-hitting combat support.

Danish Defense Minister Soeren Gade said his country may send special forces to support a separate U.S.-led counterterrorism operation in eastern Afghanistan. Denmark already has about 300 soldiers in southern Afghanistan with the NATO force.

Norwegian Deputy Defense Minister Espen Barth Eide also said his country's government is discussing whether to send more troops. He said no troops would be sent immediately. Norway's three-party coalition government is split on the issue.

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/a ... 01103.html
Tensions Overshadow Gains in Afghanistan
Civil Conflict Could Reignite as Stability Remains Elusive

By Pamela Constable
Washington Post Foreign Service
Saturday, September 16, 2006; Page A18

KABUL, Afghanistan, Sept. 15 -- Despite scattered gains by international troops fighting Taliban insurgents in the country's south, Afghan and foreign analysts here have voiced concern that a recent peace initiative is backfiring and that lapsed Afghan militias could be drawn into the conflict unless it is quickly quelled and replaced by aid and protection.

NATO and U.S. military officials here said this week that an intensive two-week operation against Taliban fighters in Kandahar province had been a tactical success, killing more than 500 insurgents and forcing others to retreat. Afghan and foreign forces also retook a district in neighboring Helmand province that had been seized twice by the Taliban.

But these pockets of progress on the battlefield are part of a larger, murkier political map. As other Afghan militias begin defensively rearming, ethnic tensions have risen, raising the specter of the kind of civil conflict that devastated the country in the early 1990s.

A call for additional troops by NATO's senior commander has so far drawn only one positive response, Poland's offer of 1,000 personnel. Military officials here say pro-government forces need to win key areas soon and to begin delivering aid and security if they are to halt the slide in public support.

"We can't just keep fighting endless battles without having something to offer the next day," a senior Western military official said. "We have killed a lot of Taliban, but they are not running out of foot soldiers, and for every one we kill, we create new families that hate us."

On Sept. 5, Pakistan's president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, announced a peace pact with domestic Taliban forces operating in the tribal areas of Pakistan along the Afghan border. The next day, he traveled here to promote the agreement and to try to ease tensions with Afghan President Hamid Karzai, saying the two leaders should work together to fight the Taliban and terrorism.

Under the peace deal, Taliban groups in Pakistan pledged not to cross the border to attack in Afghanistan. But since Sept. 5, assaults on Afghan and foreign forces near the Pakistani frontier have continued.

Musharraf, meanwhile, infuriated Afghan officials by making comments in Europe this week that equated members of the Taliban with Pashtuns, the largest Afghan ethnic group, and suggested they were more dangerous than al-Qaeda.

"Associating the Pashtuns with the Taliban is an affront to a community who is eager to establish security and sustainable stability all over Afghanistan," the Afghan Ministry of Foreign Affairs said in a statement. The ministry expressed "profound regret over Pres. Musharraf's attempt to attribute a murderous group and the enemy of peace to one of the ethnic groups living on the both sides of the Durand line."

The Durand Line, arbitrarily drawn by the British in 1893 to separate Afghanistan from what is now Pakistan, is a perennial irritant for both countries. It divides Pashtun tribal lands and is not accepted by many Afghans.

Many Afghans say they suspect that Musharraf's deal with Taliban forces in his own country is an attempt to wash his hands of a domestic problem and push it across the border into Afghanistan. At the same time, they say, he has gratuitously insulted a neighbor that had hosted him just days before.

Musharraf has stood by his pact and denied intending to give offense. He and Karzai are scheduled to meet separately with President Bush in Washington this month. The Bush administration strongly backs both rulers and is eager to patch up their tense relations. Since the overthrow of Afghanistan's Taliban rulers in late 2001, the United States has made a major investment in troops and money in an effort to bring stable and democratic rule to the region as an antidote to Islamic extremism.


Tensions Overshadow Gains in Afghanistan
Inside Afghanistan, persistent and widening attacks by anti-government insurgents have provided ethnic militia leaders in both the north and south with an excuse to regroup and potentially rearm their forces, many of which were disbanded after 2001 under an ambitious, U.N.-sponsored program.

In the Pashtun south, where Afghan army and police forces are underpaid, poorly equipped and scattered thinly across the conflict zone, the government has authorized local police forces to form auxiliary contingents, most likely drawing on idle former militiamen. In some cases, tribal leaders have threatened to form their own defense forces.


In the north and west, dominated by the Tajik and Uzbek ethnic groups, former Islamic militia figures who fought Soviet troops in the 1980s are said to virtually control daily life in many areas. Despite a new program to disarm and pacify the region, Afghan and foreign observers said some commanders appear to be gaining further strength as the Taliban threat draws closer and villagers seek powerful patrons to protect them.

"In the north, they ask how they can be expected to disarm if the south is arming itself," said one Western diplomat, speaking on condition of anonymity. Ethnic divisions are so deep in Afghanistan, the diplomat added, that if the Karzai government were to fall, civil conflict might resume almost immediately.

"Five years ago, the Taliban were very weak and the warlords had all fled the country," said Sayed Daud, director of the Afghan Media Resource Center, a nonprofit research agency. "Now the Taliban are back and the warlords are back. They have made a lot of money, they have weapons, and the government can't touch them."

The insurgency continues to spread beyond the south. In the past week, fresh attacks have taken place as far apart as Ghazni province in the east, where Taliban and NATO forces have been battling over several villages, and Farah province in the far west, where 150 Taliban fighters stormed the provincial capital and others shot and killed an Afghan U.N. employee.

But the most urgent need, military officials and diplomats said, is to contain the southern conflict, defeat the insurgents in key districts of Kandahar and Helmand, and begin providing support to civilians there.

British and Canadian troops have fought intensely and suffered numerous casualties since NATO took over command of the southern front from the U.S.-led coalition on July 31. But military and diplomatic observers cited concern that forces from other NATO countries, operating under narrower mandates laid down by edgy governments, will not shoulder enough of the burden.

"A great deal is at stake here for NATO. It's their first operation outside Europe and an important test case," said one foreign observer. "If the fighting worsens, some members may ask whether it is worth the risk, and some may ask why they should put their soldiers in harm's way while others are sitting in easy places."

Even more is at stake for Afghans, who felt abandoned by their Western supporters after Soviet troops withdrew in 1989 and now fear the same could happen again. NATO and U.S. military officials reiterated this week that their commitment is long-term, but they also said time is running short.

"It took us four years to learn how to operate here. NATO doesn't have four years," a U.S. military official said. "It's not enough to kill Taliban. We're trying to help build a government that is weak and still fighting off the competition. That's the really hard part."

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Post by Cail »

As in Iraq, we declared victory and set up governments too quickly. This is what happens when you fight a PR war.

This is damn unfortunate.
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Post by Lord Mhoram »

It's what happens when you declare 'Mission accomplished,' and rush off to Iraq and turn your attention there instead.
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Post by Cail »

The "Mission Accomplished" speech was in reference to Iraq, not Afghanistan.
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Post by Avatar »

That's exactly what Cail is saying. Or at least, that iran shouldn't have been allowed to deplete attention.

:lol: Come on, The USSR couldn't hold the country in nine years. And they're probably even less concerned with "honest" war.

And I see NATO wants 2,500 troops for combat. 1,000 personal isn't 1,000 combat troops...

This is gonna be very messy. These guys lived (US-Supported) Guerrilla warfare against the Soviets. They're veterans.

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Post by Kil Tyme »

Mission Accomplished was done after the initial invasion into Iraq, not Afgan, and it was accomplished. It was the Iraq clean up and setup that is being messed up.

But we got the bad guy, got the citizens voting, got girls going to school as well as new schools being built, stopped the genocide of the Kurds, got a demo gov't setup, etc; it's just the rest has been a nightmare and will continue to be it seems for quite some time yet.

And no, we aren't loosing Afgan as much as the media seems to play that angle. I swear, if WWII happened with the same type of Media we have today, then the out come would have been totally different.
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Welcome to the 'Tank KT. :D

I suppose it all depends on what you think the mission was supposed to be really. :D

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Post by Phantasm »

I'm not sure about "losing" the war, but I'm certain of one thing - You'll never "win" it.

A less costly Vietnam springs to mind.

The Taliban isn't going to go away, and an invading army is never popular with the locals.
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Post by Lord Mhoram »

Cail, KT,

I'm aware that the actual 'Mission accomplished' speech was given after the ouster of Saddam. But the message from the Administration has been pretty clear: More troops are in Iraq than Afghanistan (far more have died in Iraq too, I might add); far more emphasis in Administration speeches and documents has been placed on Iraq than on Afghanistan; consequently, more coverage has been given to Iraq than to Afghanistan, and Congress spends far more time discussing and debating Iraq than the Afghanistan war.

My point is, with the Administration's, country's, and the military's direction turned largely towards Iraq, does that not have a distinct effect on the outcome of the Afghanistan war, and the larger war on terror?

I think it certainly does. Initiating another war was a bad decision with regards to the Afghanistan conflict.
and it was accomplished.
I disagree. Was the "mission" of the Iraq war simply to overthrow Saddam?
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Post by Kil Tyme »

That Mission, the one with the sign that gets so many folks panties in a bind, was to invade and over throw the regime, and yes that was done in, what, a few days; it was an historic drive, a feat never done before in history! It was damn good and damn fast.

Things got hairy after that unfortunately, but That Mission, that Invasion of a ruthless dictators country and killing his cut-throat sons and other SOBs that were conducing genocide on the Kurds, that country that all western countries intelligence said had WMD and that Clinton, Kerry and the rest of the ilk from both sides said had WMD and that that regime was a threat to the US, that regime that was raping women while the fathers and sons watched, cutting their thoats when it was over, that regime that put men into thrashers feat-first to enjoy the screaming, that regime that have had 100s of mass graves dug to thrown in their murdered citizens and with more mass graves being found, the regime that ad nausem was a black, black, black pit of a place on the planet, that Mission to rid the world of that un-human and soulless evil was indeed accomplished at that time on that day when the President was speaking with that bannor above his head.

But ya know, this whole Mission Accomplished thing is over blown. For most in the military, at that time and at that place, with the Commander and Cheif coming, it was a queue to say Good Work Guys!, We Kicked Butt!, we went in and over threw the bad guys, it's Miller Time! Then the freaking media kept harping on that sign with the Presidnt under it, the media and the critics pointing at it each time a bomb goes off and kills our guys, and they say See!?!?! What the heck was that sign all about?!?! To them, to the uninitiated, to the critics, it looks like Bush was saying then that he thought the whole job was done and it was time go home. Of course it wasn't. It was just a sign to say well done military, and it was a well done operation.

But as I said above, they haven't done as good as they could have since then. To paraphrase some senator in Outlaw Josie Wales, they won the war, but they need to do better winning the peace.

Honestly, though, the insurgents have had help with the media, for any sign of vacillation gives the enemy hope and the strength and nerve to continue their murder.
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Post by Lord Mhoram »

Kil Tyme,

As I understood it, Saddam's ouster was only part of the overall mission, which admittedly has not been clear thanks to extremely poor communication on the part of the Administration. The overall mission was to a) oust Saddam (done in record time, as you say) b) establish a Middle Eastern democracy and ally (not even close to being accomplished) c) make America safer (absolute bs; you know WMD, and all that) and the Middle East safer as well (this has completely failed) and lastly d) link this Iraq conflict with the overall war on terror. (In my opinion "d" was the largest failure; the Iraq war has strengthened terrorism and insurgency more than the Democrats, despite what Vice-President Cheney may say.)

In other words, only one part of the Iraq mission was accomplished when Bush gave that ridiculous speech.
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The speech was certainly a PR failure. And the supposed goal of the invasion changed so often nobody could keep it straight anymore. As for the ruthless dictators country, well, sure. A lot of terrible things were no doubt happening. That's pretty clear (although some of that sounded a little like "They eat christian babies" you know?).

Of course that's not a believable reason for the US to go to war either unfortunately. I wish it was. I really really do.

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Post by Lord Mhoram »

Avatar,

I have a growing suspicion that the Administration wasn't entirely sure of its justification either! Hence I listed the multiple reasons they gave. None are sufficient to show to me that we should be in Iraq in the first place. Not like it matters, since Vice-President Cheney, Secretary Rumsfeld, and their cabal were intent on invasion either way.

Afghanistan, on the other hand, is a reasonably justifiably war, and is being handled fairly poorly. Worse than I imagined.

Interesting point, not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet, is that there is a clear correlation between the $3 billion crop of opium in Afghanistan this year, and the heightened Taliban resistance. They are being funded heavily by the drug lords in the country.
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Post by finn »

Kil Tyme wrote:Mission Accomplished was done after the initial invasion into Iraq, not Afgan, and it was accomplished. It was the Iraq clean up and setup that is being messed up.

But we got the bad guy, got the citizens voting, got girls going to school as well as new schools being built, stopped the genocide of the Kurds, got a demo gov't setup, etc; it's just the rest has been a nightmare and will continue to be it seems for quite some time yet.

And no, we aren't loosing Afgan as much as the media seems to play that angle. I swear, if WWII happened with the same type of Media we have today, then the out come would have been totally different.
What you got was a massive death toll that's starting to make Saddam's regime look good by comparison. Girls may be free to go to school, but will they make it home?...Ask yourself would you feel safe living there?

Oh and its not a "mission" it was illegal under international law, its a "crime".
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War illegal? Point to that law please. I want to see that International law. I want to see where the US and any country in the whole freaking world signed such a law that outlaws WAR! The UN? Please. What planet are you on? They have to ask each other if it's ok to wipe their ass even if no one cares. Some will even take a sniff of the TP just for show. Look at the vacillation in commiting troops in the Israel/Lebanon crisis. France, what a bunch of ... But there is nada about war except to make sure there are rules. Rules. Rules! In War! Rules for those who follow the Geneva Convention pack of rules. Don't hurt our prisoners and we won't hurt yours. A Gentlemens Book of Rules for a civilized age. But War against Terrorists? Ha! Good luck finding those rules. They don't exist, except for what the media pretends exists.

Do the Terrorists abide by rules? Show me their rule damn book! Did they sign a freaking piece of paper before they tried to blow up WTC in '93, or flew airplanes into WTC in 01, or blew up two Embassys n 03, or plowed into the USS Cole, or blew up the Lebanon embassy, or killed 100s in Baha, killed innocents in Spain, Italy, UK, Iraq, Turkey, Israel, Philipines, Singapore, Netherlands, Russia, etc. The list goes on! This terrorist **** has been going on since before Jimmy Carter blew his chance for honorable mention in the hall of ballsy presidents for standing by the Shaw of Iran when the * hit the fan that began the current mess. Now he's a joke blasting the US from foreign soil! Even the Nobel he won was found to be just due to anal politics of the left toons on the committee. What a maroon. But I Digress...

100,000s killed under Saddam, all his own citizens. Gas, firing squads, a known and working WMD program (and if you think he was over that desire, then you are nieve beyond your own saftey). You find that ok? Not worth war? Really? Are you serious?

Why did we fight WWII? Japan attacked us, Germany didn't. Why did we war with Germany and the other Axis powers? Why didn't we let Hitler just go on with his desire to take over the rest of Europe? He wasn't bothering us, just Japan attacked us, after all. Our beef was with Japan, wasn't it?

Oh, you say, I got you! Saddam didn't attack us! He was peaceful with us, in fact, we gave him money and weapons! Ya, ironic. Well, if you had foreknowledge of Japan attacking us in the future, would you have done anything or just wait until they attacked? But Saddam would never have attacked the US!?! BS. Not directly, but he would have attacked, did attack, his neighbors. Supplied the terrorist with weapons. Do you realize that all the nations in that part of the world were, either covertly or in open, supporting Saddams defeat? Do you know why? Cause he was the most unstabbling figure in that part of the world.

Now you will say, what about those killed since the Iraq war? 10,000+ in Iraq. Yes, alot. Too many. Do you blame the US and the collation? If you have a soul you better not blame the US. You have to blame the terrorists. The civilian casualties are a large part of that number, yes. That is dreadfull. I have no argument against that; maybe some one else does (and dont take that one sentence and spin it like the media would). But let me ask you an ethical question: 1000's now or millions later? How many US and Western killed before you get your hair in a dander and get your stones hardened enough to say enough is enough in the war on terror? Would the city I live in be enough? Would NY? Would the Pope being killed, as these nuts are calling for, be enough for you to say, hey, wait a sec, why are these twisted muslims wanting to killl me? I didn't do anything? I was on their side. This is a war to the bitter end, friend. These are hard times and they aren't going away any time soon, no matter who is in the damned white house.

Now Saddam is gone, but due to the lack of foresight of Bush and his ilk, this sad story is not over. They didn't do things right, and that is an understatement. I'm not happy with Bush as much as you, but for different reasons.

At least I thank him for taking out Saddam and for recognizing the threat against our civilization that continues and will continue for generations to come unless we all recognize that threat and honestly do something about it instead of pointing fingers and blame our own western civilizaion.
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Post by dennisrwood »

well japan was allied with Germany and Italy.

and Saddam can't have been the most unstable part of the region, because the admin is telling us Iran is the most unstable part of that region.

of course some here may be against the war in Iraq, just as George W Bush used to be against nation building...
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Post by finn »

Kil Tyme wrote:War illegal? Point to that law please. I want to see that International law. I want to see where the US and any country in the whole freaking world signed such a law that outlaws WAR! The UN? Please. What planet are you on? They have to ask each other if it's ok to wipe their ass even if no one cares. Some will even take a sniff of the TP just for show. Look at the vacillation in commiting troops in the Israel/Lebanon crisis. France, what a bunch of ... But there is nada about war except to make sure there are rules.


The UN is pretty much all we have and its toothless because it has members who can veto anything they like. It gets continually screwed by the Security Council who then make cases for UN support when and only when, it suits them; the US wanted sanctions on Iraq, it wanted weapons inspectors and it castigated anyone not supporting those UN resolutions until the UN would not agree to go to invade Iraq, then it did not want to abide by the UN and in invading Iraq, did so ILLEGALLY under international law, a law which the US as a founding member of the UN, is a signatory to.

If you want to see it, you'll find that openly available on web sites or via a visit to the UN headquaters in New York, which contrary to some opinions is not in La-La land but in the US, which at least for the time being is on this planet. As for its recent effectiveness, it was the US delaying any ceasefire in the Isreali/Hizbollah dispute, the French were trying to stop the stalling tactics and it was the French that had most of the auxilliary medical personnel and moblie facilities helping the civilian population.
Kil Tyme wrote:Rules. Rules! In War! Rules for those who follow the Geneva Convention pack of rules. Don't hurt our prisoners and we won't hurt yours. A Gentlemens Book of Rules for a civilized age. But War against Terrorists? Ha! Good luck finding those rules. They don't exist, except for what the media pretends exists.


Well, there's another thread about the US violations of the Geneva Convention. But terrorists? There was no terrorist threat from Iraq and my comments were directed at your assertions of how much better life is now in downtown Bagdad.
Kil Tyme wrote: Do the Terrorists abide by rules? Show me their rule damn book! Did they sign a freaking piece of paper before they tried to blow up WTC in '93, or flew airplanes into WTC in 01, or blew up two Embassys n 03, or plowed into the USS Cole, or blew up the Lebanon embassy, or killed 100s in Baha, killed innocents in Spain, Italy, UK, Iraq, Turkey, Israel, Philipines, Singapore, Netherlands, Russia, etc. The list goes on! This terrorist **** has been going on since before Jimmy Carter blew his chance for honorable mention in the hall of ballsy presidents for standing by the Shaw of Iran when the * hit the fan that began the current mess. Now he's a joke blasting the US from foreign soil! Even the Nobel he won was found to be just due to anal politics of the left toons on the committee. What a maroon. But I Digress....
Are you saying that Jimmy Carter is a colour? Or maybe you meant a Moron?

Whatever, he was given a Nobel by the Nobel Foundation, an independant body generally taken to be both international and unaligned, ie it has nothing to do with US politics, in fact 95% of the planet doesn't except of course when its being invaded either corporately, militarily or culturally.

Of course terrorist are not signatories...that's what makes them terrorists and not an opposing army!

Didn't a American loony do the biz in '93?
Kil Tyme wrote: 100,000s killed under Saddam, all his own citizens. Gas, firing squads, a known and working WMD program (and if you think he was over that desire, then you are nieve beyond your own saftey). You find that ok? Not worth war? Really? Are you serious?
Very serious, there was not a single WMD found, there was no credible work done on Nukes and the toxic agents, Sarin and VX have a limited shelf life. I doubt he'd have had much chance of getting more as the US would have refused to sell it to him this time, unless of course he wanted to have a go at the Iranians again.

Whilst I do not condone the gassing of the Kurds (which was c.7000 people dead and c. 10,000 injured), their political stance was similar to that of the Basque Seperatists (also called terrorists). Saddam's other use of Gas was against the Iranians in the Iraq/Iran War, sponsored by Ronny Reagan, where the US provided the gas and the means of delivery.
Kil Tyme wrote: Why did we fight WWII? Japan attacked us, Germany didn't. Why did we war with Germany and the other Axis powers? Why didn't we let Hitler just go on with his desire to take over the rest of Europe? He wasn't bothering us, just Japan attacked us, after all. Our beef was with Japan, wasn't it?


Until America was attacked it did not go to war! England alone stood up to Hitler's Germany and stood firm for two years before the Japanese brought the US into the war, remember that then look at who stood up first to say we're with you, the same day...September 11th, not two years later.
Kil Tyme wrote: Oh, you say, I got you! Saddam didn't attack us! He was peaceful with us, in fact, we gave him money and weapons! Ya, ironic. Well, if you had foreknowledge of Japan attacking us in the future, would you have done anything or just wait until they attacked? But Saddam would never have attacked the US!?! BS. Not directly, but he would have attacked, did attack, his neighbors. Supplied the terrorist with weapons. Do you realize that all the nations in that part of the world were, either covertly or in open, supporting Saddams defeat? Do you know why? Cause he was the most unstabbling figure in that part of the world.


Until North Korea or Iran, then who? Nigeria, Zimbabwe........

You have no foreknowledge of anything, if you did you'd not have invaded Iraq, killed 100,00 and be in the middle of a shit-storm! There was no way Saddam could attack the US....UN sactions imposed at the behest of the US had all but brought the country to its knees already....you want to talk of war crimes? How many died of hunger in Iraq as a result of those sanctions?

Kil Tyme wrote: Now you will say, what about those killed since the Iraq war? 10,000+ in Iraq. Yes, alot. Too many. Do you blame the US and the collation? If you have a soul you better not blame the US. You have to blame the terrorists.
It's 100,000, ten times as many...and I do blame the US and the weakness of Blair and Howard for allowing this to happen. Afghanistan was a legitimate target on the war on terror, Iraq was not. Even some on the right are now coming to this conclusion, its documented that Iraq was a target in the neoconservative manifesto as a target for securing mineral interests for the US before 9/11.
Kil Tyme wrote: The civilian casualties are a large part of that number, yes. That is dreadfull. I have no argument against that; maybe some one else does (and dont take that one sentence and spin it like the media would). But let me ask you an ethical question: 1000's now or millions later? How many US and Western killed before you get your hair in a dander and get your stones hardened enough to say enough is enough in the war on terror? Would the city I live in be enough? Would NY? Would the Pope being killed, as these nuts are calling for, be enough for you to say, hey, wait a sec, why are these twisted muslims wanting to killl me? I didn't do anything? I was on their side. This is a war to the bitter end, friend. These are hard times and they aren't going away any time soon, no matter who is in the damned white house.
That's true enough, so fight the terrorists, Iraq was not a clear and present danger and now the US is committed to such an extent that its losing the initiative in Afghanistan ....where the terrorist are, remember?

Its supposed to be a War ON Terror not a War OF Terror.

Kil Tyme wrote: Now Saddam is gone, but due to the lack of foresight of Bush and his ilk, this sad story is not over. They didn't do things right, and that is an understatement. I'm not happy with Bush as much as you, but for different reasons.


No argument.
Kil Tyme wrote: At least I thank him for taking out Saddam and for recognizing the threat against our civilization that continues and will continue for generations to come unless we all recognize that threat and honestly do something about it instead of pointing fingers and blame our own western civilizaion.
Look, he's an evil bastard, but then so are a lot of the worlds leaders. There are always Milsovic's, Idi Amins, Mugabe's...if any of them slip and fall off a cliff the world will be better, but going to war to remove one and destroy a country doing so does the way the coallition has done in Iraq does not leave the world a better place, it leaves it with a lot less people.

Saddam has been a convenient bogey-man, demonised by the US for years after he had lost any effective ability to mount a credible threat to the US. Iraq was bankrupt, had no money, and sold its oil to get food and basic medicines, which it did not get anywhere near enough of resulting in 100's of thousands of deaths, mainly children, the weak and the elderly. We hear of PR war, this was economic war, the US had the lead hand in those innocent deaths...sanctions killed more people that Saddam did.

Now where are we on the war on terror? Well we've lost ground in Afghanistan (where the terrorists are), because we are totally bogged down in a second Vietnam in Iraq (where the terrorists are not) but creating new terrorists which then results in the need for a war on terror.
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Brinn
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Post by Brinn »

Finn wrote:Oh and its not a "mission" it was illegal under international law, its a "crime".
Can you cite me the case where this was determined, as it takes more than just opinion to make it true. The Hague Convention certainly provides the US the right to resume hostilities from 1991 provided that the terms of the ceasefire were not met.

Thus the only legal argument is whether an additional UN resolution was required. Some say no, and I think their case is stronger. Others say yes. In truth, the only body that could make a determination, the Security Council, did not render a decision.

The case for legality is as follows:

UNSCR 687 affirms the terms set forth in UNSCR 686 and all previous resolutions:
UNSCR 687 wrote:
RESOLUTION 687 (1991)
Adopted by the Security Council at its 2981st meeting,
on 3 April 1991

The Security Council,

Recalling its resolutions 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990, 661 (1990) of 6 August 1990, 662 (1990) of 9 August 1990, 664 (1990) of 18 August 1990, 665 (1990) of 25 August 1990, 666 (1990) of 13 September 1990, 667 (1990) of 16 September 1990, 669 (1990) of 24 September 1990, 670 (1990) of 25 September 1990, 674 (1990) of 29 October 1990, 677 (1990) of 28 November 1990, 678 (1990) of 29 November 1990 and 686 (1991) of 2 March 1991,

Welcoming the restoration to Kuwait of its sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity and the return of its legitimate Government,

Affirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of Kuwait and Iraq, and noting the intention expressed by the Member States cooperating with Kuwait under paragraph 2 of resolution 678 (1990) to bring their military presence in Iraq to an end as soon as possible consistent with paragraph 8 of resolution 686 (1991),

Reaffirming the need to be assured of Iraq's peaceful intentions in the light of its unlawful invasion and occupation of Kuwait,

Taking note of the letter sent by the Minister for Foreign Affairs of Iraq on 27 February 1991 and those sent pursuant to resolution 686 (1991),

Noting that Iraq and Kuwait, as independent sovereign States, signed at Baghdad on 4 October 1963 "Agreed Minutes Between the State of Kuwait and the Republic of Iraq Regarding the Restoration of Friendly Relations, Recognition and Related Matters", thereby recognizing formally the boundary between Iraq and Kuwait and the allocation of islands, which were registered with the United Nations in accordance with Article 102 of the Charter of the United Nations and in which Iraq recognized the independence and complete sovereignty of the State of Kuwait within its borders as specified and accepted in the letter of the Prime Minister of Iraq dated 21 July 1932, and as accepted by the Ruler of Kuwait in his letter dated 10 August 1932,

Conscious of the need for demarcation of the said boundary,

Conscious also of the statements by Iraq threatening to use weapons in violation of its obligations under the Geneva Protocol for the Prohibition of the Use in War of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or Other Gases, and of Bacteriological Methods of Warfare, signed at Geneva on 17 June 1925, and of its prior use of chemical weapons and affirming that grave consequences would follow any further use by Iraq of such weapons,

Recalling that Iraq has subscribed to the Declaration adopted by all States participating in the Conference of States Parties to the 1925 Geneva Protocol and Other Interested States, held in Paris from 7 to 11 January 1989, establishing the objective of universal elimination of chemical and biological weapons,

Recalling also that Iraq has signed the Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production and Stockpiling of Bacteriological (Biological) and Toxin Weapons and on Their Destruction, of 10 April 1972,

Noting the importance of Iraq ratifying this Convention,

Noting moreover the importance of all States adhering to this Convention and encouraging its forthcoming Review Conference to reinforce the authority, efficiency and universal scope of the convention,

Stressing the importance of an early conclusion by the Conference on Disarmament of its work on a Convention on the Universal Prohibition of Chemical Weapons and of universal adherence thereto,

Aware of the use by Iraq of ballistic missiles in unprovoked attacks and therefore of the need to take specific measures in regard to such missiles located in Iraq,

Concerned by the reports in the hands of Member States that Iraq has attempted to acquire materials for a nuclear-weapons programme contrary to its obligations under the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons of 1 July 1968,

Recalling the objective of the establishment of a nuclear-weapons-free zone in the region of the Middle East,

Conscious of the threat that all weapons of mass destruction pose to peace and security in the area and of the need to work towards the establishment in the Middle East of a zone free of such weapons,

Conscious also of the objective of achieving balanced and comprehensive control of armaments in the region,

Conscious further of the importance of achieving the objectives noted above using all available means, including a dialogue among the States of the region,

Noting that resolution 686 (1991) marked the lifting of the measures imposed by resolution 661 (1990) in so far as they applied to Kuwait,

Noting that despite the progress being made in fulfilling the obligations of resolution 686 (1991), many Kuwaiti and third country nationals are still not accounted for and property remains unreturned,

Recalling the International Convention against the Taking of Hostages, opened for signature at New York on 18 December 1979, which categorizes all acts of taking hostages as manifestations of international terrorism,

Deploring threats made by Iraq during the recent conflict to make use of terrorism against targets outside Iraq and the taking of hostages by Iraq,

Taking note with grave concern of the reports of the Secretary-General of 20 March 1991 and 28 March 1991, and conscious of the necessity to meet urgently the humanitarian needs in Kuwait and Iraq,

Bearing in mind its objective of restoring international peace and security in the area as set out in recent resolutions of the Security Council,

Conscious of the need to take the following measures acting under Chapter VII of the Charter,

1. Affirms all thirteen resolutions noted above, except as expressly changed below to achieve the goals of this resolution, including a formal cease-fire.
UNSCR 686 affirms the previous twelve resolutions (as it was one resolution prior to 686) and provides the following eight objectives for the establishment of a cease fire:
UNSCR 686 wrote:
1. Affirms that all twelve resolutions noted above continue to have full force and effect;

2. Demands that Iraq implement its acceptance of all twelve resolutions noted above and in particular that Iraq:

(a) Rescind immediately its actions purporting to annex Kuwait;

(b) Accept in principle its liability for any loss, damage, or injury arising in regard to Kuwait and third States, and their nationals and corporations, as a result of the invasion and illegal occupation of Kuwait by Iraq;

(c) Under international law immediately release under the auspices of the International Committee of the Red Cross, Red Cross Societies, or Red Crescent Societies, all Kuwaiti and third country nationals detained by Iraq and return the remains of any deceased Kuwaiti and third country nationals so detained; and

(d) Immediately begin to return all Kuwaiti property seized by Iraq, to be completed in the shortest possible period;

3. Further demands that Iraq:

(a) Cease hostile or provocative actions by its forces against all Member States including missile attacks and flights of combat aircraft;


(b) Designate military commanders to meet with counterparts from the forces of Kuwait and the Member States cooperating with Kuwait pursuant to resolution 678 (1990) to arrange for the military aspects of a cessation of hostilities at the earliest possible time;

(c) Arrange for immediate access to and release of all prisoners of war under the auspices of the International Committee of the Red Cross and return the remains of any deceased personnel of the forces of Kuwait and the Member States cooperating with Kuwait pursuant to resolution 678 (1990); and

(d) Provide all information and assistance in identifying Iraqi mines, booby traps and other explosives as well as any chemical and biological weapons and material in Kuwait, in areas of Iraq where forces of Member States cooperating with Kuwait pursuant to resolution 678 (1990) are present temporarily, and in adjacent waters;

4. Recognizes that during the period required for Iraq to comply with paragraphs 2 and 3 above, the provisions of paragraph 2 of resolution 678 (1990) remain valid;

5. Welcomes the decision of Kuwait and the Member States cooperating with Kuwait pursuant to resolution 678 (1990) to provide access and to commence immediately the release of Iraqi prisoners of war as required by the terms of the Third Geneva Convention of 1949, under the auspices of the International Committee of the Red Cross;

6. Requests all Member States, as well as the United Nations, the specialized agencies and other international organizations in the United Nations system, to take all appropriate action to cooperate with the Government and people of Kuwait in the reconstruction of their country;

7. Decides that Iraq shall notify the Secretary-General and the Security Council when it has taken the actions set out above;

8. Decides that in order to secure the rapid establishment of a definitive end to the hostilities, the Security Council remains actively seized of the matter.

Thus, actions described in the following story were clearly a breach of UNSCR 686 which invalidates the terms of the cease-fire.

Iraq fires AAA at Northern Watch Aircraft
1 May 2002

UNITED STATES EUROPEAN COMMAND -- Iraqi forces attacked Operation Northern Watch (ONW) coalition aircraft today. Iraqi forces fired anti-aircraft artillery (AAA) from sites in the vicinity of Saddam Dam around 3:20 p.m. local time while ONW aircraft conducted routine enforcement of the Northern No-Fly Zone.

Coalition aircraft responded to the Iraqi attacks by dropping precision guided ordnance on elements of the Iraqi integrated air defense system.

All coalition aircraft departed the area safely.

Coalition aircraft have been enforcing the Northern No-Fly Zone for more than 10 years. Since Dec. 28, 1998, Saddam Hussein has opted to challenge this enforcement by firing at coalition aircraft with surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) and anti-aircraft artillery and by targeting them with radar. Operation Northern Watch aircraft respond in self-defense to these threats, while continuing to enforce the No-fly Zone.


UNSCR 686 clearly states that Iraq will cease all hostile actions against coalition members. Firing on coalition aircraft is clearly a hostile action. If you do not abide by the terms of the ceasefire than you have invited a resumption of hostilities. IMHO, the legality of the action is extremely clear and could very easily be justified by prior precedent.
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. John Stuart Mill
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Cail
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Post by Cail »

Lord Mhoram wrote:Interesting point, not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet, is that there is a clear correlation between the $3 billion crop of opium in Afghanistan this year, and the heightened Taliban resistance. They are being funded heavily by the drug lords in the country.
Got a link? Prior to our invasion, the Taliban had nearly crushed opium production, so your statement flies in the face of history.
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Post by Lord Mhoram »

In an interview late last week, Charles acknowledged that the cultivation levels apparently exceed even the previous record of about 160,000 acres of opium poppy, reached in 2000. The Taliban was aggressively promoting the crop at the time to finance military operations but banned it later that year, citing religious reasons.
link

So they have banned it in the past, but this year's 50% increase and the rising level of resistance leads me to agree with this guy...
"Drug money is absolutely supporting terrorist groups," said Alexandre Schmidt, deputy head of the U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime in Afghanistan. And regardless of their allegiance, Schmidt said, most suspects are released within 48 hours because of intervention by higher authorities.
link
I'm just guessing it's no coincidence.
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