Is anyone disappointed in Runes?

Book 1 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

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Post by EssPee »

Sorry -- TL;DR is message-board shorthand for "too long, didn't read." I'm painfully aware of my own tendency toward gasbagginess :-).
dlbpharmd wrote:Since 1st Chronicles were written in the early 70s, your complaint that leprosy has been curable for "decades" doesn't really hold up. Also, I believe you have to remember that Covenant's world and "our world" aren't the same. Lastly, SRD relied heavily on his father's knowledge base in treating patients with leprosy in India, thus the use of dapsone (DDS) as monotherapy.
Your point about leprosy in the first trilogy (published in 1977, IIRC) is of course correct, and I didn't intend to critique SRD's use of the metaphor there. By the time of ROTE, however, 20 years have passed in the real world, and yet there's no indication that anyone, including our medical-doctor protagonist, is even aware that medical advances have rendered people's previous obsession with leprosy obsolete. Which, of course, helps explain why we don't have leper colonies anymore.

What brought the subject to mind was the nasty aside by the sheriff in ROTE, who still hates Covenant because he was a leper and suggests that Roger should just burn down Haven Farm. He says this to Avery, who should know with certainty that leprosy no longer poses a threat of any kind to anyone, but who doesn't even bother to note his ignorance to herself.

I have a longer argument about all this, but as you suggest, it's probably been hashed over before, and this isn't the right thread for it anyway. I'd be interested in seeing what others have written on the subject, though, so any pointers would be welcome.

I'll just note in passing that my issues here could be fanwanked away by playing with the (deliberately ambiguous) real-world timeline or assuming that Covenant's leprosy was caused by a weird, mutant, multidrug-resistant bacterial strain. I think these are cheats, but they're still plausible arguments. Still, the implications of medical progress on the leprosy metaphor are quite interesting, especially should it resurface in future installments of the last chronicles, so I'll look forward to discovering previous discussions on the subject before getting too deep into it myself.
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Post by dlbpharmd »

What brought the subject to mind was the nasty aside by the sheriff in ROTE, who still hates Covenant because he was a leper and suggests that Roger should just burn down Haven Farm. He says this to Avery, who should know with certainty that leprosy no longer poses a threat of any kind to anyone, but who doesn't even bother to note his ignorance to herself.
I do understand your points. My opinion of Lytton is that he's just an ignorant old bastard. There are still people walking around who believe that HIV can be spread by a handshake. I frequently (especially this time of year) encounter people who refuse flu shots because of fear of contracting influenza, and even though I try to convince them otherwise, they're adamant so I drop the subject (or sometimes don't even bother.) I suspect that Linden might think the same of Lytton.

What a minute - I'm an avowed member of THOOLAH,* and I'm defending Linden? Am I feverish? :faint:

*The Holy Order Of Linden Avery Haters.
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Post by emotional leper »

It's a good kind of fever. Enjoy it.

Yeah. If the Last Chronicles is taking place roughly 20 years after the first (give or take a few weeks), then it's most definately not set in the same world as us. There are several key technological innovations that would have been somewhat common in the early to late nineties that I don't remember seeing in the start of RotE.

Also, as the above avowed Linden hater has said, don't assume Lytton actually knows anything about medicine. Of course, it's quite possible that he could know a little bit more than we give him credit for. After all, we still don't know exactly how leprosy is transmitted. Someone who was as afraid of Leprosy as Lytton would consider burning down the house on Haven Farm an entirely appropriate precautionary measure. If we don't know how it's contracted, why take a chance with such a horrible disease?
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Post by EssPee »

Emotional Leper wrote:Also, as the above avowed Linden hater has said, don't assume Lytton actually knows anything about medicine. Of course, it's quite possible that he could know a little bit more than we give him credit for. After all, we still don't know exactly how leprosy is transmitted. Someone who was as afraid of Leprosy as Lytton would consider burning down the house on Haven Farm an entirely appropriate precautionary measure. If we don't know how it's contracted, why take a chance with such a horrible disease?
Oh, I wasn't putting too much credence in Lytton's medical knowledge, as he's clearly portrayed as an idiot and borderline bigot. But Avery, who tends to react to just about anything anyone says with an internal monologue, let his bloviating go unchallenged even to herself, when you might reasonably expect her to think about exactly what an ass he's being given that leprosy can't really hurt anyone anymore.

Of course, whether Avery actually knows anything about medicine is an open question :-), as is whether the "real world" in the novels truly resembles ours. Still, I wonder if SRD finds it difficult to acknowledge that medicine has outpaced what was initially a very resonant metaphor for "corruption."
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Post by emotional leper »

Leprosy is still a pretty frickin' bad disease to catch.

Hell, if some kid came down with Leprosy in a developed nation he'd probably go undiagnosed for a long, long time. It's just not something you see a lot. There are so many diseases that are much more likely than leprosy. And unless it's one of the particularly deforming of the three varieties of leprosy, you might not get diagnosed even.
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Is anyone disappointed in Runes?

Post by SleeplessOne »

I have a new appreciation for ROTE now after reading FR.
amen to that ...

I wasn't one of those that disliked Runes in the first place, but FR was a dog's breakfast by comparison -
Spoiler
too much revisionism, too many vulgar displays of power (to pinch a line from the Exorcist), too much concern with misdirection and mystery rather than focusing on a genuinely involving story ...
here's some specific reasons why I enjoyed ROTE more than FR;

* The opening ‘real world’ sequence in ROTE was great, really kicked the final chrons off to a dramatic start; I'd argue it was some of the best writing in the final chrons to this point ..

Lord Foul !!

The chapter ‘Against Time’

* The hints given to the history of the Demondim/Viles in ROTE were left typically vague but were littered with suggestive and stirring words which rang a bell in my imagination (lofty; austere) were far more interesting than
Spoiler
the actual revelation of the Demondim in FR
and were in keeping with SRD’s style when it came to writing about the Lands past –
Spoiler
actually visiting the past was somewhat of an anti-climax
Esmer’s mysterious storm among the peaks was the better than any display of power in FR;
Spoiler
e.g Linden’s blitzkrieg with the SoL, Rog and Jeremiah/Croyel teleporting, Roger's blazing hand
Spoiler
The cliffhanger worked better the first time around
[/spoiler]
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Post by dlbpharmd »

* The opening ‘real world’ sequence in ROTE was great, really kicked the final chrons off to a dramatic start; I'd argue it was some of the best writing in the final chrons to this point ..
I agree.
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Post by ninjaboy »

It was a good opening sequence.. I do wonder how the book will end in the 'real world'.. With everyone being shot up real bad an' all..
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Post by Condign »

I thought the opening sequence was a real firecracker. At first I thought, come on, let's get to the land, but it just got better and better...
Well done on that SRD, you really got back with a bang.
Having said this, I'm a paid-up member of THOOLAH.
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Welcome to THOOLAH!
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Better the second time

Post by zmulls »

Sounds like a lot of people had the same experience I did, ROTE was better the second time around.

I really hated it the first time, but reread it to get ready for FR. It made more "sense" the second time around.

I think the main reaction to the book the first time was "hey, this is the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, not Linden Avery....when's TC going to finally show up?" And we waited and waited and waited (lots of teasers, "Find me"...) and D'oh! There in the very last paragraph....grrrrr....

There was a whole new set of myths and new interpretations of old myths to sort out. There was a lot of listening to characters stand up and drone on and on for weeks as if they were giants about the whys and wherefores of ancient stories that would become important much, much later.

The second time through I knew TC wasn't going to show up on the next page, and I took the time to get to "know" the individuals Linden was picking up on her way to Revelstone. And it's a great big setup book.

Also, we're all waiting to see what has happened to all the races and places from books past (and we took care of Kevin's Watch pretty quickly). At the end of ROTE, there are still some key groups that have been unaddressed.

I'm dreading seeing volume IV come out in six year, and having to read through ROTE, FR and Vol. III over again in rapid succession...
(Reading the four Gap books in preparation for the last one was an exercise in masochism...)
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Post by wayfriend »

Welcome, Mr. Mulls. I hope you take the time to introduce yourself over in The Summonsing.
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Post by ellll »

My greetings,

I came here for this issue; to say that in the total reading of Runes, I have been astounded by the depth and mystery...Every time...

No other volume by SRD, including Fatal has moved me so deeply. Call me a fool if you wish, but I am here to defend the most mysterious and complete fantasy volume ever written, even as it brings tears and formication to my entire being right now, from just the thoughts...

Yours Truly, ellll
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Post by dlbpharmd »

Welcome to the Watch! I take it you liked Runes? ;)
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Post by ellll »

Thanks for your kind welcome.

In fact, I really just wanted to be able to relate to others who have interest in the Chronicles series. I read Lord Fouls Bane in the Ballentine edition and completed that set..and went on as the others became available...all book club, Ballentine editions..so I have all hardcover.

My interest through many readings is not only for the complete story in any set...but even more for the writing that at times is like fire in your sight. Many find the writing of SRD to be a bit disjunct, and perhaps it is. Certainly great teachers have said so...However at his best, NONE has surpassed, and perhaps two or three matched...and that is also attested by other authors and teachers of English.

In this, I found Runes to surpass all other volumes..including his latest. The language, in particular during action, is expanded and beautiful, even if hard at times to read..I am an old man, yet find I must read again..to recall the flowering of language I found that first time...back in the late 1970's..

My Regards, John (commonly called ellll)
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Post by ellll »

O.K. Time to say more, but likely to suffer the slings and arrows...

Simplicity and good reading are not this book...That is pretty wll accepted by many auth. However..for specific points of interest, Runes is all surpassing.

The "impossible" conversation with Anele during the attack of the Kresh will serve to illustrate some of the mystery, and the general issue of complexity and surprise, like the mystery of the ur-viles, the areas if magic...There are MANY areas like these two.

And we face the need to understand "who" Anele "is" and what makes him the "hope"and we will wait yet beyond the latest volume for that answer...(or have you figured it out??)...You simply must read carefully and thoughtfully; this is no book for the timid...

Several readings will be required for most to establish any complete relation to what is going on. Those readings seem to me to also require what I do..as already said above... I do Donaldson as if I were reading a text on ethics.., From the first look at the first page of text...a determination to establish a relation, however hard...It is for me rewarding...There was a mention earlier of SRD's "writerly" method..Perhaps that is the thing that captivates me...and some few others.

NOT easy by any measure, and I DO see the author as a wandering sage..BUT, complete with the disorganization and confusion..and even anger and sorrow, bringing mistakes and difficulty in presentation...turns in direction, material of such weight it is like a mountian...and also like a bad joke....all in one.

Even so, in places where SRD hits his stride...and there are many..a magic occurs, and I have never read the equal of it in popular literature. :roll: (I know, I just must not have read much...(I Have))...

And for those who have not yet gone on...(surely few at this location..) Then you WILL be bored..and attacked..and decimated..all in the same book...and wonder why the hell you read it.....yet why you have to wait two more years to read more...

John (ellll) :roll:
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Post by Steve Hurtloam »

I just re-read ROTE and have begun FR.

I see where the disappointed people are coming from, but there's one thing I didn't see in the posts above (sorry, I didn't read all of them) - I love reading new SRD material about The Land. The Land is probably my favorite character in the novels. Hell, it was hard to root for TC at times back in the day. And I remember reading those series' when they were new. Every page of ROTE just brought back great memories of being young and enjoying those first 6 novels.

Sure ROTE's a "set up" book... but now we have time-travel SRD style! Linden acts a lot like TC used to, she's tough and don't take no guff.

I just wanted to say I loved the book, it was great to be back in The Land, and love spotting all the "pieces" of the puzzle in ROTE that will culminate into something unforgettable.
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Post by ellll »

Yes...and that is the question...,

All the pieces in Runes (or ROTE) that will take us somewhere new..and old..It is the reason I appreciate this volume so much...It is a mystery who will be the hero, and hints abound...as we are faced with the likelihood Anele and Liand will be the real questions for us...I am reminded of a shorter and different puzzle, equally as well done, and for me, equally thrilling, ...Vagrant Story...but I cannot digress to that love as well..., Not here!

My kind of stuff...I am no wit or intellect...and this is meat for real pros..I probably have missed much with no realization...and I have read carefully twice, after a normal reading before that...!!

Starting on my forth reading and study next week...after tying up some mysteries for me in the first three books...there are ties that truly amaze when you think about it...and it takes a number of readings to understand many of them...Don't even think of putting the Second Chronicles in the mix...you do begin losing your good senses if you think too much....That is still too close for me, and will need some real study when we tie it together 8O ...

After all...We ARE the White Gold...John (ellll) :roll:
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Post by Blackhawk »

Cameraman Jenn wrote:Wow, I was totally moved by the urviles becoming good guys! I thought that was awesome. They totally kicked some butt to get the Staff back and that totally ruled. And what about the Ramen completely going against hundreds of years of ingrained belief by actually obeying the Ranhyn and riding for the first time ever. What about Stave's sacrifice? Wasn't that moving? Granted, alot of ROTE is laying groundwork for events to come but there was still alot of action in it.

CJ
I have to agree with you on that.. I Liked runes also, SRD has alot of good chapters left in him, I hope.. when Stave took a beating to stand by Linden, and the Ramen Riding... and the Urviles allegiance to the staff..i think they always served the staff because it said so in LFB the only thing that made them not follow the staff was when The Illearth stone enslaved them.and then again after the staff was destroyed. but anytime there is a staff of law and they are not being corrupted they seem to follow the staff of Law.
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Post by Evans Caamora »

I was surprised when I discovered that SRD has put together a third and last chronicles of TC, but it didn't stop me from buying the book and reading it. It had been a number of years...(like 20)...since I'd read the first and second chronicles so I was hesitant to even begin reading it. I'd slogged through 10 pages of the "What has gone before" prologue and thought to myself that I'd never understand the deeper meaning and significance of anything in this new 'last' series, but I was pleasantly surprised and relieved once I started reading it. I really don't understand the criticism of folks who say that he should have stopped after WGW. If SRD wants to continue this series it's his prerogative. I do think that he didn't 'hit his stride' until about half way through Runes....or maybe it was just me trying to get acquainted with The Land again. Either way, I think it's a success gauged upon the fact that as soon as I finished Runes, I immediately went out an purchased FR. So, no...I'm not disappointed in Runes...not in the least.
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