I don't agree with your first thought. I assume there's a limit to how far the Haruchai mind-speech can reach, and I don't think those that knew the tale were able to tell Thomin and the Bloodguard in his company. Though I do agree that Thomin knew the risks. A way was found to possess a Giant!! Nobody needed to know anything other than that to know how serious the situation was.
But I think you're right about the Bloodguard having deep-rooted ties with the Lords they watch over. I think they studied their Lords very closely, learning every nuance, so they would know when anything was wrong. And Thomin probably knew that Verement wasn't just playing along, or joking, or anything other than losing himself.
The Illearth War - Chapter 18 Doom's Retreat
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Fist and Faith
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Ah. I gotcha. I didn't realize that. It's been too long since I read it carefully enough to remember who got where and when. In that case, yes, they most certainly all knew about it. And I'm surprised they didn't tell everyone else. Even though it would have disheartened everybody else, I would have argued that the Giants deserved to be remembered and mourned.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
On the subject of Thomin killing Verement, I think it's worth mentioning the following, from just after Fleshharrower's army comes into view:
Am I the only one who thinks that final order might have been along the lines of 'Make sure I am not corrupted"?Lord Verement dropped his task, straightened his shoulders; he gave Thomin one final order.
obscurity.
"Only the great masters of style ever succeed in being obscure." - Oscar Wilde.
"Only the great masters of style ever succeed in being obscure." - Oscar Wilde.
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A Gunslinger
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IMHO, the Bloodguard would be able to sense or see the Illearth Stone's hold on Verement. A Bloodguard would never have acted in haste.Dromond wrote:But is it that simple? Who's to say Verement wouldn't have spent his last strength to say - "I worship - the Land - or Earthpower, who can say? Thomin took that away.Murrin wrote:Thomin's last act shows the essence of his duty to the Lord - by killing Verement before he is forced to swear allegiance to the Despiser (he would have been killed afterwards anyway), he preserves the Lord's honour.
"I use my gun whenever kindness fails"
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Along with Obscurity's"Triumphantly, Fleshharrower cried, "Now Verement - Shetra Mate! Where is your defiance now?... ...Repeat these words- 'I worship Lord Foul the Despiser. He is the one word of truth.'"
Lord Verement's lips remained clamped shut. Within the paralyzing fire, his cheek muscles bulged as he set his jaws.
"Speak it!" Fleshharrower roared. With a jerk of the stone, he tightened the corona around Verement. A gasp of agony tore the Lord's lips apart. He began to speak.
"I - worship - "
He went no further. Behind him, Thomin jumped up to carry out his last duty. With one kick, the Bloodguard broke Lord Verement's back. Instantly, the Lord fell dead. "
Lord Verement dropped his task, straightened his shoulders; he gave Thomin one final order. "
ie. Thomin carried out "his last duty", that being Verement's "final order".
I never wondered about this one when reading (& re-reading) it, I always assumed Verement's last order was "kill me" & Thomin duly carried it out.
I tend to agree with this line of thought.obscurity wrote:On the subject of Thomin killing Verement, I think it's worth mentioning the following, from just after Fleshharrower's army comes into view:
Am I the only one who thinks that final order might have been along the lines of 'Make sure I am not corrupted"?Lord Verement dropped his task, straightened his shoulders; he gave Thomin one final order.
As for the Bloodguard it's clear there is a hierarchy to their action. Priorities within their realm of influence. I've often thought on this value system when Bannor interacts with Covenant.
In LFB Covenant is given the title of Ur-Lord and accorded a seat of respect. TC is given into Bannor's care. Covenant is for all intents and purposes a LORD accorded all the privlidges and subject to protection under the vow.
Said Prothall:
"So I name you 'Ur-Lord' a sharer of all the matters of the council until you depart from us. We must trust you.
LFB ch14 "The Council of LordsYou are Ur-Lord now," murmured Mhoram. "There is no more need for you to sit there."
I believe each situation mandates it's own value system according to the Vow. Every situation is different therefore the value system for each Bloodguard changes, and by value system I mean priority of action.
In the battle of Soaring Woodhelven Covenant did not want to seek cover immediately when enemy forces where nearing their position. Against Covenant's wishes Bannor -picked him up and dropped him- inside their hiding area. So preserving TC's life > TC's orders.
Later on under Gravin Threndor when TC became seperated from the lords Bannor fell -after him- at the risk of his own life, when the ur-vile pushed TC off the ledge in an attempt to secure the white gold. Ironically however after TC bats away Drool Rockworms hand, and the host of Ur-viles in the room comes to attack him, only then does Bannor choose to help defend TC. When questioned later by TC as to why the Bloodguard delayed Bannor replied:
ch 23 "Kiril Threndor"When he spoke again, his foregn Haruchai tone held a note of final honesty."I withheld my aid, awaiting proof that you are not a foe of the Lords."
So: Bloodguard doubt > preserving TC's life
In the next book, TIS, Covenant is foiled by way of which route to take in the halls of Revelstone by Bannor blocking his egress. When confronted, Bannor merely replied that the High Lord ordered it. In spite of his care TC finds himself face-to-face with Trell who is overcome by rage and proceeds to try and kill TC. Bannor jumps to the rescue.
So if you want to create a "flow chart" if you would of the mental process of the Bloodguard in this instance you could say the following. (i'm not a developer or smart enough to follow a flow chart, i'm not 'tech' but i'll try)
1 High Lord Elena mandate > all
2 If TC comes within range of Trell = divert TC Path.
3 Use force if neccesary to preserve priority 1.
4 If priority 3 is engaged then subdue TC without bodily harm > all
5 If priority 2 fails then preserve TC life > all
6 If priority 5 is engaged then attempt not to permanently damage Trell
7 If priority 5 continues in conflict with priority 6 then use of lethal force is authorised.
(Actually this looks like some half mangled BASIC program I used to make on my vic-20 but hey, i'm sure you get the idea.)
I guess my opinion is that ultimately some things are as simple as they seem, such as the likelyhood of Verement being corrupted. (When I look back at the shock and horror the bloodguard themselves had at seeing a Giant be turned, it leaves little doubt in my mind that for them the stakes had changed.), and other things, such as the Vow, remain infinitely more complex than ever.
Thanks for your time.
Covenant recognized that this was a fact. But he had not expected such an argument from the Giant.
"Foamfollower'" he muttered, climbing out of his bed, "you've been thinking again."
from: "Lord Foul's Bane"
"Foamfollower'" he muttered, climbing out of his bed, "you've been thinking again."
from: "Lord Foul's Bane"
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A Gunslinger
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One other things to note: Verin hopes (or is it his despair speaking? can we tell the difference) that his passion will give him the power to defeat Fleshharrower. In other words, he's given up on the Oath of Peace by surrendering to his passion, abandoning all restraint.
It doesn't work. But it foreshadows
It doesn't work. But it foreshadows
Spoiler
Mhoram's discovery that the Oath of Peace is the flaw that cripples the Lords in their efforts to penetrate Kevin's Lore. It's also a foreshadowing of Mhoram's battle with Satansfist. Except that Mhoram has the krill of Loric, awakened by wild magic, which enables him to prevail.
Choiceless, you were given the power of choice. I elected you for the Land but did not compel you to serve my purpose in the Land... Only thus could I preserve the integrity of my creation.
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Hoerkin
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Nice job Dromond.
I like the quote
"(Note to self: never piss off a Bloodguard)"
It is very likely Thomin realized his attack on Fleshharrower would be his final act so Lord Verement final order had to be followed first. Otherwise Thomin would have died knowing that he failed twice (at least in the mind of the Bloodguard): failing to defeat the giant-raver and not preventing Verement from being corrupted.
I like the quote
"(Note to self: never piss off a Bloodguard)"
It is very likely Thomin realized his attack on Fleshharrower would be his final act so Lord Verement final order had to be followed first. Otherwise Thomin would have died knowing that he failed twice (at least in the mind of the Bloodguard): failing to defeat the giant-raver and not preventing Verement from being corrupted.
Hoerkin
three bloodgaurd killed the giant at seareach, so why did 2 other bloodgaurd not stay with thomin to kill flesharrower?
But if you're all about the destination, then take a fucking flight.
We're going nowhere slowly, but we're seeing all the sights.
And we're definitely going to hell, but we'll have all the best stories to tell.
Full of the heavens and time.
We're going nowhere slowly, but we're seeing all the sights.
And we're definitely going to hell, but we'll have all the best stories to tell.
Full of the heavens and time.
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Hoerkin
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Soon after Lord Verement hears about his wife's fate (Lord Shetra), he
insists on remaining behind to defend the Word of Warning at the entrance as a delay tactic (I think it was dual purpose; (1) to briefly distract Fleshharrower giving Troy and company more distance (2) to become Comfortable Numb). It was clearly a sucide mission, and since their numbers were already reduced, no one could be spared. It was a given Thomin would not abandon him so he too would be sacrificed.
I could be wrong, but from the description, a pitch battle at that point would have been a route.. Troy is good, but not that good !!
insists on remaining behind to defend the Word of Warning at the entrance as a delay tactic (I think it was dual purpose; (1) to briefly distract Fleshharrower giving Troy and company more distance (2) to become Comfortable Numb). It was clearly a sucide mission, and since their numbers were already reduced, no one could be spared. It was a given Thomin would not abandon him so he too would be sacrificed.
I could be wrong, but from the description, a pitch battle at that point would have been a route.. Troy is good, but not that good !!
Hoerkin
yea but even in his grief i still think it was a worthless sacrifice. it must have saved the wardward what? 10 mins for verement to fight fleshharrower. and if he had not been killed they would have had more valuable Lords.
off topic i also thought Gandalf fight with the Balrog was kinda worthless especially in the film where it seems they could of out run it
<chased out by rabid Gandalf fans>
off topic i also thought Gandalf fight with the Balrog was kinda worthless especially in the film where it seems they could of out run it
<chased out by rabid Gandalf fans>
But if you're all about the destination, then take a fucking flight.
We're going nowhere slowly, but we're seeing all the sights.
And we're definitely going to hell, but we'll have all the best stories to tell.
Full of the heavens and time.
We're going nowhere slowly, but we're seeing all the sights.
And we're definitely going to hell, but we'll have all the best stories to tell.
Full of the heavens and time.
Setting off the Word of Warning blocked Doom's Retreat for a couple of days, which gave the Warward time to reach Doriendor Corishev before <i>moksha</i>'s army caught them. Necessary time, not obtainable in any other way.
(Actually, Verement was pretty suicidal, and probably intent on confronting the Giant-Raver anyway. Otherwise the Bloodguard could have scaled the cliffs and dropped a line to him, then pulled him up once he'd finished weaving the Word's power into the walls of the Retreat.)
(Actually, Verement was pretty suicidal, and probably intent on confronting the Giant-Raver anyway. Otherwise the Bloodguard could have scaled the cliffs and dropped a line to him, then pulled him up once he'd finished weaving the Word's power into the walls of the Retreat.)
Choiceless, you were given the power of choice. I elected you for the Land but did not compel you to serve my purpose in the Land... Only thus could I preserve the integrity of my creation.
Having just reread The Illearth War, I wish to get in on this discussion.
Thomas Covenant - at that time - believed the Land was an illusion, and a deadly one at that. It was not what it appeared to be: behind it's beauty and life lay death, in the form of gangrene and blindness and stench.
So, Covenant is telling Troy the same thing. The Land is not what it appears to be. The military situation in the Land is not what it appears to be. It's all illusion, and behind that illusion lies horror and death. I, Covenant, refused to be deceived by this dream, so I will survive it. You, Hile Troy, insist on believing this dream, and it will destroy you.
And it did destroy Hile Troy (whether it was a dream or not a dream.) He attempted suicide on Kevins Watch. When faced with the reality of the Lands need it drove him to attempted suicide.
I think Hile Troy knew, inwardly, that agreeing to the Forestals price would kill him. It didn't matter to him anymore: he would have paid that price if Wildwood had announced it outright. Instead, he became a Forestal.
Ironic, that he finally became a being with a profound insight into the Land, and a true champion of the Land ... but it cost Hile Troy everything. The Covenant of that time might have said that Hile Troy loved and embraced the dream ... and the dream embraced him back in it's fatal claws, and made him over into a servitor being in eternal slavery to itself.
I think Lord Verement did not give in to hate at the end. At the end, he kept his Oath of Peace, despite his words of embracing hate.
The death of his wife did not cause him to stop being who he was.
Had he allowed his hate to truly control him, he would have obtained power as Trell and Mhoram later did. This would not have saved him from Fleshharrower, but the fight would have lasted longer.
Verement would have lasted longer, but he could not have won against a Raver in a battle of hate. He especially could not have won against one carrying a fragment of the Illearth Stone.
If Thorim had not acted immediately, I think Verement would have held out against the torture of the Stone longer than his words indicated. But in the end Fleshharrowers torture would have succeeded. Perhaps Fleshharrower would have broken Verements mind totally, and reduced him to a mindless puppet.
So Thorim did the right thing. He did it while he still could, while he still lived. He saved Verement from continued torture and possible enslavement to Fleshharrower.
Thorim had no chance against Fleshharrower. His initial attack was defeated, and his subsequent attack was defeated. I would say Thorim did all he could, in that situation.
The Bloodguard are not emotionless. They just act without apparent emotion. Actually, the Haruchai appear to be about the most emotional people around. They're more emotional than even the ur-viles. They're as emotional as they are capable.
And occasionally, as with Tull and then Thorim, that emotion shows itself.
In the case of Korik, his emotional reaction to the disaster at Coercri helped lead to the breaking of the Vow ... with a little help from the shard of the Illearth Stone.
Thomas Covenant - at that time - believed the Land was an illusion, and a deadly one at that. It was not what it appeared to be: behind it's beauty and life lay death, in the form of gangrene and blindness and stench.
So, Covenant is telling Troy the same thing. The Land is not what it appears to be. The military situation in the Land is not what it appears to be. It's all illusion, and behind that illusion lies horror and death. I, Covenant, refused to be deceived by this dream, so I will survive it. You, Hile Troy, insist on believing this dream, and it will destroy you.
And it did destroy Hile Troy (whether it was a dream or not a dream.) He attempted suicide on Kevins Watch. When faced with the reality of the Lands need it drove him to attempted suicide.
I think Hile Troy knew, inwardly, that agreeing to the Forestals price would kill him. It didn't matter to him anymore: he would have paid that price if Wildwood had announced it outright. Instead, he became a Forestal.
Ironic, that he finally became a being with a profound insight into the Land, and a true champion of the Land ... but it cost Hile Troy everything. The Covenant of that time might have said that Hile Troy loved and embraced the dream ... and the dream embraced him back in it's fatal claws, and made him over into a servitor being in eternal slavery to itself.
I think Lord Verement did not give in to hate at the end. At the end, he kept his Oath of Peace, despite his words of embracing hate.
The death of his wife did not cause him to stop being who he was.
Had he allowed his hate to truly control him, he would have obtained power as Trell and Mhoram later did. This would not have saved him from Fleshharrower, but the fight would have lasted longer.
Verement would have lasted longer, but he could not have won against a Raver in a battle of hate. He especially could not have won against one carrying a fragment of the Illearth Stone.
If Thorim had not acted immediately, I think Verement would have held out against the torture of the Stone longer than his words indicated. But in the end Fleshharrowers torture would have succeeded. Perhaps Fleshharrower would have broken Verements mind totally, and reduced him to a mindless puppet.
So Thorim did the right thing. He did it while he still could, while he still lived. He saved Verement from continued torture and possible enslavement to Fleshharrower.
Thorim had no chance against Fleshharrower. His initial attack was defeated, and his subsequent attack was defeated. I would say Thorim did all he could, in that situation.
The Bloodguard are not emotionless. They just act without apparent emotion. Actually, the Haruchai appear to be about the most emotional people around. They're more emotional than even the ur-viles. They're as emotional as they are capable.
And occasionally, as with Tull and then Thorim, that emotion shows itself.
In the case of Korik, his emotional reaction to the disaster at Coercri helped lead to the breaking of the Vow ... with a little help from the shard of the Illearth Stone.
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Krazy Kat
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This chapter really got me. Did anyone notice the big blunder Flesharrower made. It's so mindblowing!
Also, it's amazing how the point of view changes here, as if to reinforce the stunning crack in Lord Foul's plans. S.Donaldson had kept a tight grip on the point of view of the book, which is explained in the introduction to Gilden Fire. We only get to view the events through either Thomas Covenant or Troy. But there are two POV places I noticed that shift briefly. One is when Lord Mhoram opens his door to find Covenant stood there, and the other is when Fleshharrower sees the Warward marching towards Garroting Deep. And this is where he has made his fatal mistake! I can almost imagine the son of Wavenhair Haleall struggling for a few desperate moments as he views the weird and beautiful Southern Wastes.
Also, it's amazing how the point of view changes here, as if to reinforce the stunning crack in Lord Foul's plans. S.Donaldson had kept a tight grip on the point of view of the book, which is explained in the introduction to Gilden Fire. We only get to view the events through either Thomas Covenant or Troy. But there are two POV places I noticed that shift briefly. One is when Lord Mhoram opens his door to find Covenant stood there, and the other is when Fleshharrower sees the Warward marching towards Garroting Deep. And this is where he has made his fatal mistake! I can almost imagine the son of Wavenhair Haleall struggling for a few desperate moments as he views the weird and beautiful Southern Wastes.
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thewormoftheworld'send
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So why does this concern over POV apply only to TIW and not to TPTP?Krazy Kat wrote:This chapter really got me. Did anyone notice the big blunder Flesharrower made. It's so mindblowing!
Also, it's amazing how the point of view changes here, as if to reinforce the stunning crack in Lord Foul's plans. S.Donaldson had kept a tight grip on the point of view of the book, which is explained in the introduction to Gilden Fire. We only get to view the events through either Thomas Covenant or Troy. But there are two POV places I noticed that shift briefly. One is when Lord Mhoram opens his door to find Covenant stood there, and the other is when Fleshharrower sees the Warward marching towards Garroting Deep. And this is where he has made his fatal mistake! I can almost imagine the son of Wavenhair Haleall struggling for a few desperate moments as he views the weird and beautiful Southern Wastes.
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Krazy Kat
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Hi wotwe, the reason for posting here is because this thread is concerned with the chapter Doom's Retreat. I also think the POV is significant to understanding how Verement uses the Earthpower magic. Is a 'word of warning' part of the first ward, or the second?
If you take a look at some of the postings above(especially the one by the unknown guest), you'll see there's lots more to discover.
Also, I just wanted to blow away some of the cobwebs in this forum.
If you take a look at some of the postings above(especially the one by the unknown guest), you'll see there's lots more to discover.
Also, I just wanted to blow away some of the cobwebs in this forum.
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Krazy Kat
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I totally agree. What a great story!
I hadn't read the Illearth War for many years. There were moments when the words were becoming magnified on the page. Does this make sense...?
On the topic of POV, it hadn't occured to me at the time I was reading it that once Hile Troy loses his sight Lord Mhoram becomes the viewpoint character.
Assuming you know the deliberate mistake that was made in the Doom's Retreat chapter, do you know what the consequences are? I don't, so could use a pointer, or a hint or two.
I hadn't read the Illearth War for many years. There were moments when the words were becoming magnified on the page. Does this make sense...?
On the topic of POV, it hadn't occured to me at the time I was reading it that once Hile Troy loses his sight Lord Mhoram becomes the viewpoint character.
Assuming you know the deliberate mistake that was made in the Doom's Retreat chapter, do you know what the consequences are? I don't, so could use a pointer, or a hint or two.