Re-reading series in anticipation of Deathly Hallows

Post by **Cameraman Jenn** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:15 pm

That was a rather biased description of the debate wasn't it? But hey, Guns has to defend his own pov.

Post by **dlbpharmd** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:08 pm

Sorry to disappoint but I don't really have an opinion on the love triangle thing.....I do think that Snape and Dumbledore had an agreement and Snape will turn out to be a good guy though (murder of Dumbledore notwithstanding.)

YouTube · Post by **Menolly** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:27 pm

<--- the one hold out in thinking Dumbledore will return via his Phoenix patronus somehow...

Post by **Seafoam Understone** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 3:10 pm

Menolly wrote:<--- the one hold out in thinking Dumbledore will return via his Phoenix patronus somehow...

Not the only one ... I think Dumbledore will return likewise due to the fact that Voldemort was afraid of one wizard (according to Harry) and that was Albus.
His funeral gave clues and his love of Fawlks and "The Order Of The Phoenix" and so forth... too many coincidences to be left hanging.

YouTube · Post by **Menolly** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 3:31 pm

Seafoam Understone wrote:
Menolly wrote:<--- the one hold out in thinking Dumbledore will return via his Phoenix patronus somehow...
Not the only one ... I think Dumbledore will return likewise due to the fact that Voldemort was afraid of one wizard (according to Harry) and that was Albus.
His funeral gave clues and his love of Fawlks and "The Order Of The Phoenix" and so forth... too many coincidences to be left hanging.

Yay!!

Post by **A Gunslinger** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 3:52 am

Cameraman Jenn wrote:Guns has this CRAZY theory that Snape was in love with Lily Potter and that he sold out the Potters to Voldemort so that James and Harry would be killed leaving Lily as a free agent. He also thinks that Lily's death is what turned Snape against Voldemort, the fact that Voldy betrayed Snape by killing Lily after all. He thinks this because of the following reasons:

1) JK Rowling said in an interview that Snape has loved and known love in return.

2) Snape's hatred of Harry is because he looks like James with Lily's eyes and that's painful to him.

3) Snape had to have a serious reason to trade sides.

My argument is that Snape was purely hateful to Lily during the only exchange we ever get to see, the one when Harry steps into Snape's memories in the pensieve. Also, I can't see Lily cheating on James with Snape and JKR said that Snape has loved and known love in return, that would mean Lily and he had an affair. Finally, according to Dumbledore, Snape switched sides BEFORE Lily and James were killed.

You have my theory down except for one very lasrge detail, my lovely dear, Jenn... in my theory...the love was totally unrequited...yes, Snape had known love... but only one-sided. He LOVED Lily, but he thought that if Harry and James were out of the way, Lily would grow to love HIM.

This is why he sold them out. In horror, he watched while his love was killed by Voldemort. This is why Snape betrays the DL. Snape vowed his allegience to Dumbledore soon after.

Call me goonie, but you will only have 42 days in which to do so, my dear! Heh!

Thanks to Menolly for sending me the note telling me to get myself over here to defend Severus!!!

YouTube · Post by **Menolly** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:59 am

A Gunslinger wrote:Thanks to Menolly for sending me the note telling me to get myself over here to defend Severus!!!

:::blushing:::

As I also said in that PM, we've missed seeing you here in this forum, Guns!!!

Post by **A Gunslinger** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:08 am

Menolly wrote:
A Gunslinger wrote:Thanks to Menolly for sending me the note telling me to get myself over here to defend Severus!!!
:::blushing:::

As I also said in that PM, we've missed seeing you here in this forum, Guns!!!

Thanks hon! i have been really busy lately...my brother and all. Work...family.... eep. i miss you guys.

YouTube · Post by **Menolly** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:13 am

{{{Guns and brother}}}

I hope this time y'all have together is joyful and full of experiences that make lasting good memories.

Post by **Cameraman Jenn** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:38 am

Guns, we have missed you ferociously! We totally understand your priorities though. I still think you missed the point of what Jo said, she said he has loved AND known love in return. Unrequited love doesn't fit that statement.... sheesh. Tell your wife that when I am justified that the Lily and Snape love theory is silliness, that she had better understand when I make you go through the spanking tunnel of humiliation at the next watcher fest. I hope there are alot of watchers.....if you are wrong.... and only a few watchers if I am wrong!

Post by **sindatur** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:51 pm

Did JKR specify that it was Romantic love? I believe that Ms. Prince (Snape's mother) did indeed love him.

If it's romantic love, and someone we would have a shot at guessing it would be a Black (Narcissa's affection him, and Sirius's hatred. Could the Maruaders hatred of Snape all be related to him being a slimy Slytherin?). Old Lady Black did seem to have more an affection towards Half-Blood Severus than her own Pure Blood son Sirius. Either that, or maybe he and Bellatrix had a thing, and the vehemence against him in HBP from Bellatrix was more due to a bad breakup (Maybe his crush on Lily? Do we know enough about Bellatrix and Snape's history to know there wasn't enough time for an torrid affair) than her affection for the Dark Lord?

Post by **Cameraman Jenn** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:55 pm

My guess for romantic love was Narcissa based on how solicitious he was to her and how he favors Malfoy and was even willing to make the Unbreakable Vow for her. I think I also stated originally that my best guess was Snape's mother. Narcissa was my second guess and Tonks is my third guess.

Post by **sindatur** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:25 pm

Cameraman Jenn wrote:My guess for romantic love was Narcissa based on how solicitious he was to her and how he favors Malfoy and was even willing to make the Unbreakable Vow for her. I think I also stated originally that my best guess was Snape's mother. Narcissa was my second guess and Tonks is my third guess.

The only thing that makes me question Narcissa as his love, is Lucius and he having such a good relationship. If Narcissa was his only love, would he be able to ahve such a good relationship with Lucius?

Tonks is only about 5-7 years out of Hogwarts when we first meet her, seems kinda young for them to have had something in the past? Sure Lupin's with her now, but, that happened after we first met her, not in the past.

Post by **stormrider** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:06 am

sindatur wrote:
The only thing that makes me question Narcissa as his love, is Lucius and he having such a good relationship. If Narcissa was his only love, would he be able to ahve such a good relationship with Lucius?

Yeah, I can't believe that Snape would be able to be Lucius's friend if he had feelings for Narcissa. He's such a petty person -- he holds grudges for 20 years. If he loved her, I don't think he'd have the grace to accept his friends' marriage and move on.

Post by **Seafoam Understone** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:20 am

stormrider wrote:
sindatur wrote:
The only thing that makes me question Narcissa as his love, is Lucius and he having such a good relationship. If Narcissa was his only love, would he be able to ahve such a good relationship with Lucius?
Yeah, I can't believe that Snape would be able to be Lucius's friend if he had feelings for Narcissa. He's such a petty person -- he holds grudges for 20 years. If he loved her, I don't think he'd have the grace to accept his friends' marriage and move on.

Why not? ... I have.

Post by **stormrider** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:26 am

Then you've got a much better perspective on life than I could ever imagine Snape having. Probably better than most people, actually.

Post by **A Gunslinger** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:03 pm

We'll ALL know in 8 days people! Again, as I have stated elsewhere the Snape loved Lily theory is one that evolved with me in attempt to connect and explain two very important things. 1) Why Dumbledore trusts Snape so very implicitly and 2) Why Snape renounced LV to begin with.

If Snape loved Lily and she were killed by LV due in part to Snape's own action/inaction, then I could see why both things exist. Snape goes to Dumbledore, confesses what he has done and why (for the love of Lily) and then joins up with Dumbledore.

The fact is that I understand it is a bit of a reach, but at the same time, given JKR's propensity toward redemption and Dumbledore's belief in love as (a redemptive) power...it cannot be denied out of hand.

Actually the idea of Snape loving Lily is probably more predictable that JKR would ever write. Maybe we'll find out theat they were STILL involved...that Lily was something of a tart!

Post by **sindatur** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:10 pm

<A chill runs up Sindatur's back as he tries to purge the thought of Lily running her fingers through that greasy hair>

Ya know, if it wasn't for the fact that both Lily/James and Neville's parents have thrice defied Voldemort, I could almost buy that Lily and James knew of Snapes affection for Lily and used it to get Snape to turn on Voldemort (although I don't think I could ever buy she was attracted to him or even went so far as flirting to encourage it)

Post by **Seafoam Understone** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:34 pm

sindatur wrote:<A chill runs up Sindatur's back as he tries to purge the thought of Lily running her fingers through that greasy hair>

Ya know, if it wasn't for the fact that both Lily/James and Neville's parents have thrice defied Voldemort, I could almost buy that Lily and James knew of Snapes affection for Lily and used it to get Snape to turn on Voldemort (although I don't think I could ever buy she was attracted to him or even went so far as flirting to encourage it)

A couple of people can still love and fall in love without the overtones of flirtation, dating and romance and all of that. Just being in proximity to one another on a daily basis and perhaps working together (study groups) and sharing ideas, laughs, and whatever can be the start of a love affair.

But as we all know it takes two people to have a romance.
It could be that Snapes developed a crush on Lily during their first year at Hogwarts (speculation is all), she's vibrant, pretty and isn't repulsed by him when they meet or have to sit together in class or whatever. Year two, Lily is friendly and is happy to see him again (as a FRIEND) but Snapes still in puppy-love-crush mode is heartened by this and so forth. Lily just sees him as a nice boy, kinda sweet in his own way but isn't attracted to him.

Ya'll get the idea. By the time Snapes and Lily and James and so forth all were in their 4th or 5th years Snapes was probably deeply in love with Lily and though he knew she chose James Potter he still holds that love in his heart... in hopes that someday... maybe...

Well ya'll get the idea.
Some guys will go to the ends of the earth for the woman who has their hearts. Some guys who are the lonely, nerds, unattractive and so forth will be happy just having that unrequited love and leave it at that.
The fact that James (Sirius, Remus) had chosen Snapes as (their) token whipping boy and probably Lily did not a lot to stop them except when they were going too far, like the scene/memory Harry witnessed from Snape's pensieve. Or she only "toned them down" whenever she was around. Sorta-kinda like keeping James on a short leash when Snapes and the others were together or in the same proximity.
Snapes probably had deep resentments against James and probably hoped that Voldemort would just kill James and leave Lily for him. But that wasn't the case. Lily most likely fought back against Voldemort and he elected to kill her anyway. Snapes realized that Voldemort didn't intend to keep any promises that he made. Ergo making Snapes the catalyst in the war to come, being a "triple spy" as it were.
Dumbledore knew all of this and used it to his advantage and knew Snapes was a good person deep down inside and took care of him.

Just my own theory of it all.

Post by **sindatur** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:07 pm

Seafoam, while Lily certainly treated him with a certain amount of respect (and maybe because she knew he was a Half Blood in a Pure Blood world), I don't believe anyone could ever see Snape as sweet. remember, when Snape arrived at Hogwarts he knew more curses then a (7th?) year and he was sorted into Slytherin, I see no room in that combination for anyone to think he was sweet, LOL.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Re-reading series in anticipation of Deathly Hallows