Runes Part 2, Chapter 7 - Aid & Betrayal

[Zarathustra]

From the GI:

Nathan Eddy: Mr. Donaldson,

I’m confused about lore vs. Law as it applies to Demondim-spawn (Waynhim and ur-viles). On page 413 of Runes, you wrote, “For that reason," [Esmer] explained, "the Staff of Law is inimical to them. Though Waynhim serve the Land, and have always done so, their service stands outside the bounds of Law. Their lore is in itself a violation of Law. The fact of their service does not alter their nature.”

If the lore of Waynhim is a violation of Law, then the ur-viles shouldn't be an exception, even when they are working to serve Law, as the Waynhim do. So the lore which they used to create Vain should be a violation of Law, too. I'm still a little confused how the addition of Findail and wild magic can transform a *violation* of Law into the *Staff* of Law.

If “the fact of their service does not alter their nature,” then what altered the nature of the ur-vile’s lore?


Gee, I've always assumed that Vain was indeed a violation of Law. But asking me how he could be transformed into something completely different is rather like asking me how magic "works". In books like mine, that kind of question leads in circles.

But consider that chemistry is rife with similar transformations. The human body can hardly survive without chemicals which are inherently toxic (homocysteine leaps to mind)--until interactions with other chemicals transform them into beneficial substances.

Or consider the profound artificiality of written storytelling: an artificiality so extreme that it can be (and in fact has been) considered a violation of Law. Yet somehow arbitrary black squiggles on paper are transformed by the reader's intelligence and imagination into something as organic as thought itself.

And if that isn't enough, remember that the One Tree (and/or the Worm of the World's End) played a part in Vain's transformation.

The ur-viles and Waynhim certainly exist as violations of Law; but that doesn't render them incapable of understanding and serving Law--as the Waynhim have demonstrated since the beginning of "The Chronicles".

(05/22/2007)

So I was right that Vain is a violation of Law (pat-pat), but I was wrong to try and think about this logically because it is fantasy magic, and such questions necessarily lead to circular answers.

Ok, I'd be fine with that if he didn't then go on to try and answer it with an analogy to chemistry (science, not magic).

The analogy to reading I don't get at all--unless he's trying to say, "this is a work of fiction, get over it." I don't see anything artificial about written story telling. That's like saying symbolic language and meaning itself is a violation of Law. Or that consciousness is a violation of Law. Conscious thought itself is dependent upon symbolic meaning. Is conscious thought artificial? I don't get the connection.

The thing about the One Tree is the most satisfying explanation here. (But then it contradicts his assertion that he can't explain the magic.) This reasoning seems like a "logical" explanation to me--at least within the framework of the story.

The last paragraph is just a restatement of the points I made in my question. Yes, I understand that Demondim spawn can serve Law and yet stand outside it. What I didn't understand was how Vain--which Donaldson admits was a violation of Law--can turn into the very tool and articulation of Law. The embodiment of Law. Surely this transformation is orders of magnitude greater than a mere "serving" Law.

At the very least, Donaldson has just admitted that the distance between "artificial" and "Law" isn't as distant as the divide seems to imply. It can be traversed on the most important, basic level of his symbology. Now I just need to work out the implications of this admission.

If Vain had been, in himself, a violation of Law, Linden would have seen it, of that I am sure. So IMO we should take it as a given that he wasn't, and work backwards from there.

So since this is wrong, we can't take it as a given. We can move forward with a new given. What does that mean about Linden's percipience? What does it imply about the Staff? What does it imply about healing the Sunbane?

[danlo]

Maybe Vain having a certain amount of 'purity' confused Linden's percipience.

I think I can see what SRD's saying in regards to writting-but I think it depends on who's version of 'law' we're looking at. Reliqious fanatics saying that Fantasy and magic are evil. Fiction as unreal...propaganda, Farenheit 451, etc...(telling 'stories' is lying-the truth is the law [however subjective the truth might be)...

[wayfriend]

• Gee, I've always assumed that Vain was indeed a violation of Law. ... The ur-viles and Waynhim certainly exist as violations of Law; but that doesn't render them incapable of understanding and serving Law

This is rather complicated, isn't it? On first glance, this is sort of self-contradictory.

For if the ur-viles can understand and serve law (which I have maintained herein), then it follows almost absolutely that their works need not be violations of law. So I don't understand why Vain needs to be, or is, a violation of Law.

I can only reconcile this in my own mind by considering that Vain is a violation in his creation (being an expression of Law-violating lore), but is not a violation in his function (which is in service of Law).

(If that doesn't make sense, consider the following analogy: you can make money doing illegal things; such "ill-gotten gains" are illegal in the sense of how they were obtained, but the purpose of the money - buying a nice car and some new clothes - is not.)

If Vain had been, in himself, a violation of Law, Linden would have seen it, of that I am sure. So IMO we should take it as a given that he wasn't, and work backwards from there.

So since this is wrong, we can't take it as a given.

You're welcome to that assumption if you like it. But I'm not making it. Vain's purpose is lawful, and that's why Linden perceived him as she did.

[danlo]

So Vain is a paradox? Is everything that Donaldson writes... Almost everything about Vain was purpose, wasn't it?

I can only reconcile this in my own mind by considering that Vain is a violation in his creation (being an expression of Law-violating lore), but is not a violation in his function (which is in service of Law).

I've always looked at it that way.

[Relayer]

I can only reconcile this in my own mind by considering that Vain is a violation in his creation (being an expression of Law-violating lore), but is not a violation in his function (which is in service of Law).

I've always looked at it that way.

So do I. In fact, I look at the urviles and waynhim this way too. Their creation and existence is a violation, but their actions are not.

The chemistry analogy is a good one to me.

And if that isn't enough, remember that the One Tree (and/or the Worm of the World's End) played a part in Vain's transformation.

What I find interesting here is that he brings the Worm into the equation. AFAIK, we've always discussed it as something related to the Tree... what would it mean if some essence of the Worm was also included in the Staff?!? This could be an important tidbit.

[Zarathustra]

The chemistry analogy is a good one to me.

It is a good analogy--or it would be if SRD hadn't been so adamant about the distinction between science and magic in the past. He has always said that magic doesn't work like technology, that it is more organic and an expression of the characters, rather than an expression of the discrete mechanisms comprising the technology.

And if that isn't enough, remember that the One Tree (and/or the Worm of the World's End) played a part in Vain's transformation.

What I find interesting here is that he brings the Worm into the equation. AFAIK, we've always discussed it as something related to the Tree... what would it mean if some essence of the Worm was also included in the Staff?!? This could be an important tidbit.

I agree that this might be an important tidbit. At least I hope it is, rather than SRD just grasping at straws for an explanation of an apparent contradiction. The "multiple explanation" thing always give me this impression. But that technique could just be . . . misdirection.

What I think is important about this is that it touches upon the deepest aspects of his symbology. It's as if the transformation of Vain's violation-of-Law into the Staff of Law required input from the most transcendental aspect of his created world: the Worm of the World's End. If Danlo is right--that this is paradox rather than outright contradiction--then it's a paradox on a level approaching the white gold itself.

You're welcome to that assumption if you like it. But I'm not making it. Vain's purpose is lawful, and that's why Linden perceived him as she did.

The only part I was saying was wrong was the beginning of the sentence:

If Vain had been, in himself, a violation of Law, . . .

You still could be right about Linden's percipience. Maybe Vain didn't set off any Healthsense alarms in the same way that Waynhim don't set off any alarms. Violation of Law isn't the same thing as disease, corruption, or evil. It seems that Donaldson merely means "artificial" when he says "violation of Law." So technology would be violation of law, but it isn't necessarily evil. Demondim-spawn are artifacts, rather than naturally evolved beings. And this is distinct from the acid beings (what are they called?) or even the Ravers, which are perverted beings rather than artifacts.

[danlo]

what would it mean if some essence of the Worm was also included in the Staff?!?

I've always looked at it this way too-sheer compressed starpower! Kinda goes with my old theory that the Elohim were "the children of the Rainbow" who were trapped in the Arch of Time.

[wayfriend]

And if that isn't enough, remember that the One Tree (and/or the Worm of the World's End) played a part in Vain's transformation.

What I find interesting here is that he brings the Worm into the equation. AFAIK, we've always discussed it as something related to the Tree... what would it mean if some essence of the Worm was also included in the Staff?!? This could be an important tidbit.

Good point!

Donaldson said earlier in the GI that Vain carried away with him some essense from the One Tree.

I think of the "transformation" of Vain's forearm as the catalyst which makes his later changes possible. After all, how can you possibly have a Staff of Law that doesn't come from the One Tree? Vain carries the true victory of the Quest for the One Tree with him when Covenant, Linden, etc. flee the sinking Isle.

(09/06/2004)

But, now that you mention it, Vain's arm was transformed by a glowing star of some sort that defended the One Tree. But was it the One Tree's doing, or did the Worm create that defense?

Findail (who lies) said: "He has encountered the Worm of the World's End! Its aura defends the One Tree! "

How does the Worm's defense transform Vain so that he carries an essence of the One Tree?

This obliquely relates to something I mentioned in the Two Cosmologies thread.

Spoiler

That the One Tree and the Arch of Time must be close to each other since the One Tree is the only time the Creator dared to reach through the Arch of Time.

[Relayer]

The chemistry analogy is a good one to me.

It is a good analogy--or it would be if SRD hadn't been so adamant about the distinction between science and magic in the past. He has always said that magic doesn't work like technology, that it is more organic and an expression of the characters, rather than an expression of the discrete mechanisms comprising the technology.

Agreed. I just think he was using an analogy that was easy to understand.

The "multiple explanation" thing always give me this impression. But that technique could just be . . . misdirection.

Nicely said w/ your best "Church-Lady" voice

After all, how can you possibly have a Staff of Law that doesn't come from the One Tree?

You know, on reading that again, why is this true? Who's to say someone couldn't make the Staff in some other way? The One Tree (which is also directly related to and protected by the Worm) is therefore truly the essence of Law in the world. And the Worm is analogous to the Arch, of which the wild magic is the keystone...

SRD's head must hurt trying to hold this all together

[danlo]

If the crust of the world is sitting on said sleeping Worm-that's all the dang Law you need! Maybe the tree is it's antennae?

[wayfriend]

I think the clue that ties the One Tree to the Worm is here:

"In sorrow and humility, the Creator saw what he had done. So that the plight of the Earth would not be utterly without hope, he sought to help his creation in indirect ways. He guided the Lord-Fatherer to the fashioning of the Staff of Law, a weapon against Despite. But the very Law of the Earth's creation permits nothing more."

So the Staff of Law was created with the Creator's guidance. Out of a branch of the One Tree. You have to wonder, how did the Creator reach through the Arch to provide this guidance? My only thought is, the Creator is somehow close to, or connect to, the One Tree; the One Tree was the means (the way, the door) by which the Creator had access to Berek. So maybe the 'essence' of the One Tree and the Creator's influence are the same thing, or come to Berek in the same package, together.

Which would tie in nicely with Vain's transformation; what he carried away was something of the Creator's influence. That would, indeed, be necessary to create a new Staff of Law.

Oh, implications!

All you need to tie it all together is to see how the Arch of Time plays a part in what happened on the Isle of the One Tree. To do that, you need to see a relationship between the Arch and the Worm.

[SoulBiter]

You still could be right about Linden's percipience. Maybe Vain didn't set off any Healthsense alarms in the same way that Waynhim don't set off any alarms. Violation of Law isn't the same thing as disease, corruption, or evil. It seems that Donaldson merely means "artificial" when he says "violation of Law."

Could it be that being outside the law (or that the law doesnt apply to him)is in itself a violation of law?Remember that when Covenant asked Linden to look at Vain and tell him what she sees she said something to the effect of "its like he's not even there"

[Zarathustra]

Soulbiter, I don't remember what she said. Could you post a quote?

[SoulBiter]

I dont have my books so I hunted through dissections until I found it. It wasnt that she couldnt see him. Instead she compares him to the ring (which is also outside the law). Lots of power but inanimate power.

”I’ve tried. But I don’t understand. He isn’t alive. He’s got so much power, and it’s imperative. But it’s – it’s inanimate. Like your ring. He could be anything.”

[Zarathustra]

Interesting. (We need a Spock smiley, holding his chin, eyebrow raised.)

[iQuestor]

you mean, fascinating.....