Runes Part 2, Chapter 7 - Aid & Betrayal

[Zarathustra]

I'm almost there! One more chapter! Woo-hoo!

About the purposes of urviles: why is it so mysterious that the urviles would help Linden? They’ve got a lot invested in the Staff—at least as much as Linden. They made Vain! Linden wouldn’t have been able to remake the Staff if it were not for them. Obviously, they recognize the importance of the Staff. While they might have hidden purposes beyond this, the fact that it occurs to no one is troubling. Donaldson wants us to accept a mystery by hoping that we’ve forgotten Vain’s origins. Weak.

But this mystery is perpetuated by one other source: Linden and company don’t understand their language, so they can’t ask them. But Esmer does. So why not have him translate? Easy.

Did anyone else think about those black “snakes” you used to get in fireworks packages? You light them up, and they start spewing out these ¼ inch curling black tubes. Cool. I wonder if that was Donaldson’s inspiration.

I for one, love SRD's way of desribing how elusive detecting magic/wearthpower/disturbances is (from Linden's POV) The fact that this power/magic whatever you wish to call it is not like a lightswitch (turning off and on at will) or like an RPG wizard casting spells, but for Linden, 10 years a dormant novice, has to search... and not in a conscious manner, but alow herself to just 'drift' and 'feel' (a manner of description always fatastically described in the writings of Patricia McKillip).
Well she eventually 'tunes' herself to see/feel/scense what the others do.

Yes, I like that, too. It also applies to Linden’s control of the ring, which in turn mirrors Covenant’s experiences with it in the 1st Chronicles. But notice the difference between her control of other magic, and her control of the Staff. She doesn’t even have to be touching the Staff to wield it. Perhaps this contrast is the main reason Donaldson made her control over the ring so much less certain this time around (a contrast which many have noted doesn’t seem to fit with the 2nd Chronicles).

Esmer is supposed to be frustrating. Just like the overuse of “formication.” It’s his nature. I didn’t have a problem with him as a character. In fact, I felt like I was starting to “get” him. The conflicting need to aid and betray is interesting and convoluted. I like that. What I didn’t like was his explanation for being able to show up in the past, and yet he couldn’t simply go get the Staff himself.

I like how Linden’s intuition or inspiration repeatedly comes to their rescue. She’s a true protagonist, the one moving the plot forward, taking action. She’s a good character, THOOLAH! From taking them back in time, to recognizing the significance of the urvile delay, to calling for Liand to bring Anele, to locating and using the Staff. She’s the woman!

Danlo brings up an interesting issue about lore vs. Law. If lore is incondign or even antithetical to Law, then how the Hell did the urviles participate in creating the new Staff? Vain was a creature of lore, not Law. So how does lore + earthpower (Findail) = Law??? Something doesn’t add up.

Wayfriend, I like the idea that this might be a younger Esmer. Maybe his ability to transcend time simply means that his thoughts or memories transcend time, so that his younger self and older self share the same knowledge of Linden and what’s at stake here. That would certainly explain why he couldn’t simply retrieve the Staff for her. That neatly solves that little paradox. After all, the Elohim regard space in a similar manner. They are “always at the center.” Perhaps time is like this for them to. They are “always at now,” no matter which now you’re talking about. No time travel is necessary for them.

I don’t necessarily think Esmer effaces wild magic. Making it invisible or ineffective isn’t the same as negating it—just like hiding the Staff with this illusion doesn’t negate the Staff. I think it is something Linden could get past if she concentrated harder, or weren’t so conflicted herself. It’s like Esmer magnifies her own conflicts, makes explicit her own paradox. But as Covenant has shown, paradox is possible to transcend.

[wayfriend]

About the purposes of urviles: why is it so mysterious that the urviles would help Linden? They’ve got a lot invested in the Staff—at least as much as Linden. They made Vain!

Once they gave Vain to Covenant, they didn't offer any help; they seemed to feel their contribution was over. So their connection to the Staff doesn't seem a sufficient reason.

They were once evil; then they were rather neutral; now they are not only helpful but willing to commit great sacrifices. Something in them has changed again. The question of why they are helping Linden find the Staff is only part of the larger question, why are they helping Linden, or anyone, at all?

Danlo brings up an interesting issue about lore vs. Law. If lore is incondign or even antithetical to Law, then how the Hell did the urviles participate in creating the new Staff? Vain was a creature of lore, not Law. So how does lore + earthpower (Findail) = Law??? Something doesn’t add up.

Vain alone was not the Staff. Vain's contribution was "hard, perfect structure". Vain had been so perfectly made that he attained the stature of natural Law ... But he had no ethical imperative, no sense of purpose beyond this climax. Vain provided the "rigidity" of Law, if you will, but Law is more than rigidity.

And the ur-viles are not insensate to Law, just as they not immune to it; they just stand apart from it. Often it is the person who stands outside who is best able to see the whole. I think that the ur-viles, although they were created unLawfully, are able to understand Law to the degree necessary to create Vain.

[Zarathustra]

Hmm . . . while it's true that they gave Vain to Covenant and then withdrew their aid, that could be due to them recognizing that he had the means to finish the job himself (with Linden). Obviously, Linden needs their help this time. I don't think their previous withdrawal from Covenant means they have no interest in the Staff. That's why they made Vain. Clearly, a new Staff of Law is so important to them that they would change their interpretation of their Weird in order to help make it. Their noninvolvement after giving up Vain doesn't imply neutrality about the Staff. Creating a new Staff was their whole purpose.

Are you suggesting that they don't care about the Staff now? Clearly they do. Or are you suggesting that their caring about the Staff now is somehow different from the urge which caused them to create it? There's no evidence to support that--besides Donaldson's clear desire for us to see it as a mystery. That mystery seems contrived to me; just because the characters are puzzled isn't enough of a reason for me to be puzzled. While I agree that it is entirely possible that they have intensions we don't know about, there is nothing about their present actions which contradicts their earlier motivations. They are behaving exactly as one would expect for the creators of Vain. Without such a contradiction, I see no need to assume--without evidence--that their motivations are mysterious or at odds with the urge to create the Staff in the first place.

On the issue of lore vs. Law:

Vain had been so perfectly made that he attained the stature of natural Law.

So Law can arise through "really good" lore? I don't see how that's possible. Even perfect lore should still be distinct from Law--that's the whole point of the Demondim spawn. You yourself said they stand "outside" of Law.

But I think you are on to something with Findail. Findail's input may be the key which transformed lore into Law. I could buy that. Pehaps lore is a stale, lifeless structure without earthpower. Law isn't completely distinct from earthpower, it is structured earthpower. The structure of life, of creation.

[wayfriend]

I don't know where this lore/Law issue arrises.

The Lords studied lore, and they were guardians and servants of Law. The ur-viles had lore, but their lore was not so Law-oriented.

The Old Lords had more Lawful lore than anyone, and they expressed their lore by carving the engravings in the original Staff of Law.

Lore is knowledge/experience/skill/wisdom. It's what a person has, it's not what you do with it. Lore is not antithetical to Law; the ur-vile's lore was, because of who the ur-viles are.

What's suprising about the ur-viles is not that they used lore in the service of Law, which is only what the Lords old and new have done, but that they chose to serve Law in the first place, after millenia of being opposed to it. But even that is only repeating, millennia later, the choice that the Waynhim originally made. The Waynhim, too, were unnaturally created, but they chose to serve the Law which was alien to them rather than fight it.

Are you suggesting that they don't care about the Staff now?

No, all I am saying is that caring about the Staff is not a sufficient explanation for why they are helping Linden. We shall see: Linden has found the Staff; do the ur-viles bark a good-bye and depart?

[Zarathustra]

I don't know where this lore/Law issue arrises.

From this, Runes, p. 412:

Gruffly Esmer responsded, "The Demondim-spawn are not creatures of Law. They were not born as natural creatures, nor do they wither and perish as the Law of Life requirs. Rather they were conceived by lore, created to redeem the loathing of the Demondim for their own forms."

Donaldson sets up this dichotomy to explain why the Staff of Law has such detrimental effects upon the Waynhim. He pits lore against Law as a means of creating living beings.

He also says:

. . . the Law which gives form to mortal life has no place in them."

Vain was also created by lore, not Law. So presumably Law has no place in him, either. Yet, he is an integral ingredient in creating the new Staff. I'm just trying to understand the relationship between "integral ingredient" and "has no place in them."

I have to go--haven't read the rest of your post beyond this.

[wayfriend]

IMO, that doesn't say that lore is antithetical to Law, only that the Demondim-spawn are. Lore was merely the means to that end.

As I said, lore can be used just as easily to support and serve Law. The Lords, the gravelingas and hirebrands, etc.

[Relayer]

Clearly, a new Staff of Law is so important to them that they would change their interpretation of their Weird in order to help make it. Their noninvolvement after giving up Vain doesn't imply neutrality about the Staff. Creating a new Staff was their whole purpose.

I'd say it's the other way around... they re-interpreted their Weird and thus saw that the way to be of greatest service was to create a new Staff. But I'd bet they understand that the Staff is still just a tool. Their purpose is likely much larger than that... they care about what can be done with the Staff if used properly - healing the Land, finding compensation for all the harm they have wrought, perhaps healing their racial self-loathing.

In addition, I wouldn't say they were neutral or noninvolved at all; they were simply offscreen. I don't think we ever see ur-viles in the 2nd Chrons (well, we do see the warped ones, but no normal ones?) but we hear that they attacked the Waynhim in revenge because they thought the Waynhim had told Covenant of Vain's purpose, which they felt would have ruined that purpose.

I also agree that it appears to be plain as to their intentions now. They desire to serve Linden, who is at once the ring-wielder, Staff-maker, Sunbane-ender, etc. We were told earlier that they escaped from Foul by entering a caesure and choosing to come to a time when they would be needed (ie the time when Linden returned). Much of the potential mystery simply comes from the fact that we met ur-viles as servants of Foul, and hence we don't completely trust them now. As would a Haruchai. Linden's conflict is that almost everything she knows about ur-viles is hearsay - from Stave, from Covenant. The only experience she's had of them is that they created Vain. And they certainly appear to be nothing but helpful now.

However... when is anything in a Donaldson novel plain?

[Zarathustra]

No, all I am saying is that caring about the Staff is not a sufficient explanation for why they are helping Linden. We shall see: Linden has found the Staff; do the ur-viles bark a good-bye and depart?

Good point. Like I said, I wouldn't be surprised if they have intensions which aren't yet clear--intensions beyond retrieving the Staff. However, you say that with the advantage of knowing what's coming up. So while you may be right, Linden can't know that yet.

I suppose my complaint is just how Donaldson wrote it. I agree that--until we knew Linden wanted to retrieve the Staff and until we knew that the urviles shared that goal--it was a little mysterious why they were helping (although their earlier help with Vain "rewrote" the rules of urviles never helping). But as soon as it was plain that this is why they were helping her, I don't see why there's still suspicion beyond the communication issue and the fact that they used to work for Foul (an expectation which, as I've said, has been "rewritten"). To me, it seems natural that they would accept the urvile's help without all this suspicion--especially when they've been given no evidence to be suspicious, and their behavior doesn't contradict their apparent good intensions from the 2nd Chrons.

But really, my complaint is similar to the "Why does Linden need the Staff?" complaint. It's a criticism of which information Donaldson chooses to give us at which times, and the characters' reponse to that information being believable or not. So perhaps we should end this debate here, rather than open up a similar can of worms.

Relayer, you make good points. Her knowledge is based largely on hearsay. But one could say that about her knowledge of the Ramen, too. Yet, she trusts them without question, even though they appear with the urviles, whom she doesn't trust.

[Relayer]

Relayer, you make good points. Her knowledge is based largely on hearsay. But one could say that about her knowledge of the Ramen, too. Yet, she trusts them without question, even though they appear with the urviles, whom she doesn't trust.

You're right, and I don't think she'd ever heard of Ramen before the encounter with the kresh. AFAIR, they were never mentioned by TC in the 2nd chrons (?) The fact that Stave knows them and recognizes their Landservice certainly helps Linden to trust the Ramen, but for the most part she does trust them implicitly. Although she does notice a few times that they're hiding something.

But, really I think you're on to something here: that SRD can play off the fact that we would naturally suspect ur-viles, while naturally trusting Ramen and Ranyhyn (and Haruchai - and notice how that has played out ). He may be aware of this, and (through Linden) can get his readers to react certain ways, or it may be like you say, it's a matter of how he dispenses his information. Or it may be another case that it's so obvious to him that he doesn't think about it. I'm not sure how I feel about the whole issue, just being curious.

[wayfriend]

... or it may be that, since the readers know it, he recognizes that it's not worth spending ten unentertaining pages proving that Linden knows it.

[danlo]

point: Wayfriend

[Zarathustra]

... or it may be that, since the readers know it, he recognizes that it's not worth spending ten unentertaining pages proving that Linden knows it.

Well, as long as you're willing to keep going (along with Danlo keeping "score"), I'll keep going.

Readers know what, exactly? That urviles shouldn't be trusted? Nope, that "certainty" was rewritten with the 2nd Chronicles. Are you still operating under 1st Chronicles assumptions? That's odd. Please explain why it's reasonable to treat the urviles as if the 2nd Chronicles didn't happen. The urviles helping Foul hasn't been an issue for 20 years (of our time--not to mention theirs).

And Donaldson has spent much more than 10 pages being unentertaining during this book, yet he still has inconsistencies. Just becuase the average reader is willing to look beyond those inconsistencies (or doesn't notice them) and accept the interpretation of the text as Donaldson wants it to be interpreted doesn't mean that Donaldson has actually given justification for that interpretation sufficient for more careful or critical readers. (We can both play the game of what "readers" know. This artificial, imaginary consensus you've concocted to support your interpretation--pretending that the multitudes agree with you--won't fly. I'm a reader, too. I count my opinion more than your imaginary consensus.)

If you're asking me to assume that Donaldson thinks we're all idiots and that we assume things that aren't justified by the text, well, I'm not going down that path with you. Justifying your argument based on "what readers know" is an appeal to common sense, not an appeal to critical thinking--or the text.

At the end of the 2nd Chronicles, it is clear that the urviles helped save the Land. If that is not a reason to give them benefit of the doubt, then what the heck is your criteria for suspending distrust? Why AREN'T people who help save the Land from Sunbane given a little more respect? Instead of suspicion, Linden should be thanking them for their previous help, and their continued help. She wouldn't have been able to remake the Staff then, or to retrieve it now, without them. And how does she repay this twofold help? With suspicion.

Her suspicion (and yours) must be based on more than their black skin and strange speech. If we're going to judge them on their actions, then we must admit that they've given NO REASONto suspect them. They've done NOTHING but help Linden, and she still dishonors their help by suspecting it. I think that's nothing short of stereotyping. But it's useful to create "mystery," to those willing to blindly follow Donaldson down this unconvincing road.

point: Wayfriend

And Danlo, while you're sitting on the sidelines--content merely to keep "score,"--maybe you could rouse yourself enough to give justification for your position besides merely a blanket, unconditonal support for Wayfriend's points? I'd like to hear what you think, not merely that you give Wayfriend points.

Relayer, thanks your thoughtful participation.

[Zarathustra]

More on lore vs. Law. Runes, p. 413:

"For that reason," [Esmer] explained, "the Staff of Law is inimical ["injurious or harmful in effect; adverse"] to them. Though Waynhim serve the Land, and have always done so, their service stands outside the bounds of Law. Their lore is in itself a violation of Law. The fact of their service does not alter their nature."

So if the lore of Waynhim is a violation of Law, then the urviles (whom all "readers" know are bad ) shouldn't be an exception, even when they are working to serve Law, as the Waynhim do. The above clearly shows that even when working with Law and for Law, their lore is still a violation of it (otherwise, they wouldn't have been hurt by the Staff). So the lore which they used to create Vain should be a violation of Law, too. I'm still a little confused how the addition of Findail can transform a violation of Law into the Staff of Law.

Standing outside of Law, as Wayfriend suggests, doesn't seem to do the trick, because as the above shows, "standing outside of Law" is the very thing which makes it a violation of Law.

The fact of their service does not alter their nature. The Waynhim might be worthy of trust (along with urviles who reinterpret their Weird to behave like Waynhim), but they can't change the fact that their lore is a violation of Law.

Ah crap, I'll just ask Donaldson.

[wayfriend]

Their lore is a violation of law; what they make with it (such as their service to the land) need not be. As I said earlier, lore is something a person has, a skill; it's not something that is made with that skill.

(If the ends does not justify the means, then the means does not disqualify the ends either.)

If Vain had been, in himself, a violation of Law, Linden would have seen it, of that I am sure. So IMO we should take it as a given that he wasn't, and work backwards from there.

[Zarathustra]

Wayfriend, good points. I'm sure Donaldson will say something along those lines when he answers me in the GI. I especially liked:

the means does not disqualify the ends

I say I like it, because I believe it. I don't think means disqualify the ends. Yet, I'm forced to go back to the text: "Good cannot be accomlished by evil means." [Runes, p. 445.] While you may be right, this doesn't mean that Donaldson hasn't contradicted himself.

[Edit: oh my god, I just realized what this means!! If Donaldson hasn't contradicted himself, then the only conclusion left is that he is setting us up for the revelation that there's something wrong with the Staff of Law (due to Vain), and that the healing of the Sunbane didn't really go as planned (Kevin's Dirt, anyone?). So, the ur-viles can't be trusted! You were right about that! And this applies to Vain, as well. The Staff is flawed. But it is flawed in a way that Linden can't perceive . . . and perhaps it produced a "smog" that masks percipience . . . how convenient!

Wasn't Linden's inability to penetrate Vain's purpose an issue in the 2nd Chronicles? Her percipience can obviously be thwarted, just like everyone else's--otherwise, Kevin's Dirt would be a nonissue.]

[wayfriend]

Well, I think that Linden thinks that good cannot result from evil means... but my bet is that she learns she is wrong. After all, if evil can arise from good (and that's almost everything that happens in the First Chronicles in a nutshell) then the converse must also be true.

Also, the lore of the ur-viles is unnatural and in violation of the Law --- that's not necessarilly the same as evil. So there's some wiggle room for the ur-viles doing good things. As I said, the Waynhim are in the same pickle barrel, but they serve the Land well, and you'd have to call that good.

[Zarathustra]

Well, I think that Linden thinks that good cannot result from evil means... but my bet is that she learns she is wrong.

But she is contradicting it with her actions. She violated Time in order to retrieve the Staff. She has created and traveled through caesures. Obviously, she has no problem using “evil” means herself (at least this time around--which seems to be the conflict of this entire book). So what’s the point of Donaldson giving us this “warning” if she’s not going to heed it? Unless we’re to assume that Donaldson’s message here is that everything will be hunky-dorey from Linden violating Law, then I don’t see how you can dismiss this repeated warning. Surely he takes it seriously, and he’s repeating it to build up to a crisis.

The original statement of “Good cannot be accomlished through evil means,” was provided by the Waynhim as a reason to refuse giving the Staff to Linden. (Runes, p. 409.) Then it was repeated on page 445 when she was pondering whether to use the Staff against the Demondim in the incorrect time. So both instances were warnings against violating Law and time (again, something SRD takes seriously).

It’s interesting to note that right after the first use of this sentence on 409, the text immediately following states: “At any other time, that argument would have stopped Linden. She recognized its validity. But she could not heed it now. She had already taken risks which she could not undo. She could only hope to justify them with her actions.”

So, she recognizes that the argument is valid. It’s something she previously would have heeded. She doesn’t change her mind about its validity, she’s merely following the momentum of her actions. It’s too late now. And she doesn’t heed that warning later, either, when she decides to fight the Demondim. There’s a pattern developing here.

So these are clues to Linden’s character, more than anything. She’s willing to take risks which everyone—including herself—recognizes as inherently evil. Violations of Law. Now if Donaldson’s main point is that it’s okay to violate Law sometimes, or that Linden’s actions aren’t doomed to have bad repercussions, then this has no narrative tension whatsoever. If we’re not to take it seriously, then there’s no reason to suppose that tragic events will unfold from Linden’s actions (which would be strange for a Donaldson book--not to mention a series in which he's foreshadowed very tragic things happening).

In a way, Linden is just like Esmer. Every time she tries to help, she’s also hurting. Whether it’s trying to heal Anele with the hurtloam, healing Stave against his wishes, violating time to retrieve the Staff, or giving Joan back her ring . . . she’s hurting in the name of healing.

Granted, I don’t know what to conclude from this. Maybe Donaldson’s point is that harm and healing go hand in hand (like chemotherapy). But it just doesn’t feel right, doesn’t feel like Donaldson. It’s too similar to the argument Bush used: “let’s free the people of Iraq by starting a war.” But then again, that’s how the slaves were freed. So perhaps he’s willing to accept it (when it coincides with his political ideology, that is ).

[wayfriend]

Don't you think this compares strongly to Linden's attitudes towards possession? Throughout the second chronicles, she struggled with the good/evil of possession. It's evil because it takes away a person's choices/It's her power and she can do good and effective things with it. It wasn't until the final two chapters that she reached a conclusion.

[Zarathustra]

Good point. And what was her conclusion?

[wayfriend]

In my opinion, her conclusion was to accept both. In the end, she refused to possess Covenant even though it meant giving the ring to Foul, but then she used her abilities to heal the Land of the Sunbane. I guess she discovered that it's what you do that matters, and why you do it; the power itself is not good or evil.