Is Snape Evil?

[sindatur]

Does HBP tell us that Ms. Prince (Snape's mother) died (or if she's not dead, what happened to her?). If he truly loved his mom, she was the only person who loved him, and Voldemort was responsible in some way for her demise...

[aliantha]

Okay, weighing in. I just re-read HBP last weekend (and I tell you what, re-reading Rowling goes a whole lot faster than re-reading either SRD or Erickson -- but I digress).

I don't remember anything in HBP that talks about the fate of Snape's parents, specifically his mom. But I acknowledge that I might have missed it.

What the re-read *did* leave me with is the impression that Snape is, in reality, Voldy's guy. I felt this way the first time through, too, just based on how he *behaves* with Narcissa and Bellatrix. He seems much more relaxed and forthcoming with them than he ever is at Hogwarts. (Batty tried to explain this by saying that at Hogwarts, he's got to behave like a teacher. Okay, but he doesn't have to be a git.)

Why hasn't Snape killed Harry? Simple -- because Voldy wants to kill Harry himself. I haven't seen a whole lot of Mafia movies, but I *do* know that if the Big Boss wants to off somebody himself, you don't take it upon yourself to do it for him -- no matter how many chances you get.

Here is the other thing that makes me think Snape is a bad guy. What has JK's m.o. been throughout the series? Harry has a gut feeling about something or someone, and everybody tells him he's wrong; he persists, and everybody either laughs at him or ostracizes him; and in the end, it turns out he's right. Harry has pegged Snape as a villain from Day One, and I think, once again, he's right. Dumbledore's a tough old guy with an Achilles heel: he feels compelled to think the best of everyone, even alleged former Death Eaters. (And btw, I'm still not convinced that he's gone for good -- I'm mindful of the fact that his patronus is a phoenix.) That whole "Dumbledore trusts him and that ought to be good enough for anybody" isn't good enough for *me*....

Guns, your point about the Felix Felicis is a good one, but not quite fatal to my argument. It might be that Dumbledore's death was necessary somehow to the Order's eventual victory -- or, more likely, to Harry's eventual victory. I need to think about it a little more.

I do agree that Snape had a crush on Lily, and that probably fueled his hatred of James, and by extension, Harry. The bit about Snape seeing Lily's eyes in James's body, every time he looks at Harry, just rings true to me.

Anyway, we'll all find out in a little over a week. (Batty is working the book release party at her old bookstore. MagickMaker will be on vacation with her grandmother then -- she is *so* ticked, as she missed the last one, too, because she was playing volleyball in Australia. She's hoping that at least she can score a UK version of the new book while she's in Canada... And *I* am gleeful because we're buying 2 US versions and I'll have time to read one before MagickMaker gets back! Whoo hoo!)

[Cameraman Jenn]

HA Guns! Take that! Thanks Aliantha! Good post.....except I still don't buy the Lily Snape theory.

[sindatur]

Aliantha, how do you explain Dumbledore begging Snape, if not to go through with their plan of killing him? DD would never beg for his life.

Also, what about the fact that JKR's M.O. is that Ron is always wrong? Ron is at least as big a finger pointer at Snape as Harry?

[Menolly]

And Aliantha supports my phoenix patronus signifies something theory. Woo-hoo!

[A Gunslinger]

HA Guns! Take that! Thanks Aliantha! Good post.....except I still don't buy the Lily Snape theory.

meh. Aliantha's post is a good one ...but given that her ideas are mostly based on feelings rhather than plot points. The fact that he has Snape pegged as a "bad guy" has less to do with Harry's magificent insight, than it does with his intrinsic bias towards Slytherin and someone who made it known from the get-go that he dispised Harry's Father. As for Bellatrix and Narcissa...so what. That is HIS COVER for pity's sake.

And consider THIS. When Harry had a chance to partake of the writings and stylings of Snape (without knowing who was behind the works...eliminating Harry's poop-colored glasses),,,he had nothing but defenses and admiration for him. As the Half-Blood Prince, Snape was a figure that Harry had a sneaking resepct and outright admiration for. So, I guess we could say that if indeed Harry's judgements are so good, perhaps it only prooves that Snape himself is good given his feeling towards the HBP.

No, I have provided a vertiable MOUNTAIN of evidence (from the books, mind you) that suggests that Snape is on our side. A weak little pebble cast hither and ho to the contrary will not shake the veritable fist of defiance that is my theory.

The point I especially cast aside with impugnity, is the notion that Dumbledore could be fooled so, while a boy (whose pysche isn't exactly rock-solid) would be right...especially given the fact that we HAVE YET to hear the full story of Dumbledore's trust & we have seen that Harry's prejudices (againsty Snape in particular) have lead him astray more than once with nearly lethal results.

And IF Dumbledore comes back...it will certianly demonstrate that Snape is innocent. The arrangement was made and executed, with both knowing he'd come back.

[Menolly]

FREE Severus!!

[Seafoam Understone]

HA Guns! Take that! Thanks Aliantha! Good post.....except I still don't buy the Lily Snape theory.

meh. Aliantha's post is a good one ...but given that her ideas are mostly based on feelings rhather than plot points. The fact that he has Snape pegged as a "bad guy" has less to do with Harry's magificent insight, than it does with his intrinsic bias towards Slytherin and someone who made it known from the get-go that he dispised Harry's Father. As for Bellatrix and Narcissa...so what. That is HIS COVER for pity's sake.

While Harry's instincts may prove spot on in many occasions remember that almost from the start (book 1) he was influenced to be biased against Slytherin. Ron told him "...every witch or wizard that's gone bad has came from Slytherin..." Now if nobody told him then would he still been able to figure that out on his own... probably so, very likely so.

Question... what house was Wormtail/Pettigrew from? Gryffindor? If so then he is a prime example that the "every bad wizard is from Slytherin" isn't true. If he was from Slytherin then it's ODD, very odd that James, Lily, Sirius and Remus were friends with him... "Messurs Prongs, Padfoot, Moony and Wormtail proudly presents the Maurader's Map..."

Or maybe I missed something.

I agree with Menolly FREE SEVERUS!

[Menolly]

Actually, that's Gun's battle cry...

But it fits.

I had asked at one time if the Mauraders were actually all in Gryffindor or if they were from separate houses. The Sorting House sung about one from each house teaming up and working togther, and I figured the Mauradors could easily be grouped by house:

James - Gryffindor
Sirius - Slytherin (because of family history)
Remus - Ravenclaw
Peter - Hufflepuff

Then when that grouping didn'twork out, I figured the Sorting Hat put four who could have gone into different houses all in Gryffindor to throw them together:

Harry - Slytherin
Ron - Gryffindor (again, family history)
Hermione - Ravenclaw
Neville - Hufflepuff

I no longer remember what purpose the Sorting Hat sung about the four from different houses was offhand, but it still strikes me that this grouping may be such for a good reason.

[sindatur]

Yea, they're all from the same house. Remus was made Prefect so he could keep an eye on the other 3, prefects are by the house. Peter being from Gryffindor is an indicator that in the end he will redeem himself by doing the right thing, the hat does't neccessarily sort you by what you are today, but what it sees you becoming, this is why the natural instinct would be to put Neville in Hufflepuff (during the sorting) but he went to Gryffindor (although he has already proven he's a Gryffindor in 1st year.

[aliantha]

Aliantha, how do you explain Dumbledore begging Snape, if not to go through with their plan of killing him? DD would never beg for his life.

Are those the only two things Dumbledore could be begging for? It seems to me that in situations like this, Dumbledore often attempts to appeal to the higher good he sees in everyone. He may not be saying, "Severus, I beg you, kill me as we agreed", *or* "Severus, I beg you, don't kill me." What he may be saying is, "Severus, I beg you, don't succumb to the lure of the Dark Side -- you're a better man than that and I have faith in you." He just did the same thing with Draco -- he probably figured it was worth a try with Snape. Maybe Dumbledore's so weakened at that point that he can't get the whole speech out -- and IIRC, Severus didn't really give him a chance for a monologue. (Who was it who said Dumbledore probably knew at this point that he was dying? I think you're spot on -- and if that's the case, why would he bother begging for his life?)

New movie spoiler:

Spoiler

During the confrontation in the Ministry lobby, Dumbledore does exactly this. He calls Voldy "Tom", not to piss him off, but to try to appeal to his better nature (as if Voldy had one...).

Also, what about the fact that JKR's M.O. is that Ron is always wrong? Ron is at least as big a finger pointer at Snape as Harry?

Erm, really? Ron is always wrong? He sides with Harry all throughout OOTP. Anyway, if the overall story arc is that *Harry's* gut instinct about bad guys is always right, then it doesn't matter what Ron thinks.

When Harry had a chance to partake of the writings and stylings of Snape (without knowing who was behind the works...eliminating Harry's poop-colored glasses),,,he had nothing but defenses and admiration for him. As the Half-Blood Prince, Snape was a figure that Harry had a sneaking resepct and outright admiration for. So, I guess we could say that if indeed Harry's judgements are so good, perhaps it only prooves that Snape himself is good given his feeling towards the HBP.

Harry respected and admired the HBP *until* he used one of the HBP's spells and nearly killed Draco. He kinda felt differently about the HBP after that.... Nobody ever said Snape wasn't brilliant. But that doesn't make him a good guy. And the fact that he would copy a fatal spell into his Potions text and mark it "for my enemies" -- clearly knowing what it would do -- proves my point. Harry uses the spell, yes, but in ignorance, and is immediately sorry. Had Snape had the opportunity to use it on, say, James, I don't think he would've felt an ounce of remorse.

This thing you have, Guns, about Harry's Slytherin bias. I get the sense that you think he's being unfair. Seriously, though, I think Harry's anti-Slytherin bias stems as much from the war within himself (the Sorting Had did say he could go either way) as from his dislike of Draco and his gang.

Let's see, what else? Oh -- Pettigrew. What a miserable creature. I think he toadied up to James, Remus and Sirius, and that's why they kept him around. When things started to go south for James & Co., he toadied up to Voldy -- and Voldy, bless him, put Wormtail exactly where he belonged: in the body of a pet rat. Voldy likely put Pettigrew at Snape's place to spy on Snape and make sure he's still loyal to the Dark Mark.

Aliantha's post is a good one ...but given that her ideas are mostly based on feelings rhather than plot points.

You're right. I'm hamstrung because I can't readily search out quotes -- I've only read each of the books once (except for HBP, which I've now read twice), mainly because my kids are REAL protective of their copies. (You wouldn't believe the negotiation that went on when I asked to borrow HBP last weekend. "US or UK version?" "Honestly, I don't care, as long as it's a paperback." Dither, mumble, dither. "Okay, I *guess* you can borrow my UK version." Gee thanks, and incidentally, who paid for all of these books? )

[Menolly]

Let's see, what else? Oh -- Pettigrew. What a miserable creature. I think he toadied up to James, Remus and Sirius, and that's why they kept him around. When things started to go south for James & Co., he toadied up to Voldy -- and Voldy, bless him, put Wormtail exactly where he belonged: in the body of a pet rat. Voldy likely put Pettigrew at Snape's place to spy on Snape and make sure he's still loyal to the Dark Mark.

Actually, Pettigrew, like the other two marauders besides Lupin, is an unregistered animagus. He learned to change himself into a rat, and it was his decision to hide in the Weasley family as such after the mass murders he committed.

[Cagliostro]

And the fact that he would copy a fatal spell into his Potions text and mark it "for my enemies" -- clearly knowing what it would do -- proves my point.

It's an incredibly subtle thing, and I'm sorry to nitpick, but it just said, "for enemies." The only reason I bring it up is because by adding "my" indicates that he would use it on his enemies. While the other doesn't as much. Like I said, just a nitpick, and I'm sorry to bring it up.

[sindatur]

And the fact that he would copy a fatal spell into his Potions text and mark it "for my enemies" -- clearly knowing what it would do -- proves my point.

It's an incredibly subtle thing, and I'm sorry to nitpick, but it just said, "for enemies." The only reason I bring it up is because by adding "my" indicates that he would use it on his enemies. While the other doesn't as much. Like I said, just a nitpick, and I'm sorry to bring it up.

So, for those who don't think Snape is evil (just an arrogant prick) anyone think that book ended up in Harry's hands deliberately to help advance his education and his weapons for the big fight?

[A Gunslinger]

Are those the only two things Dumbledore could be begging for? It seems to me that in situations like this, Dumbledore often attempts to appeal to the higher good he sees in everyone. He may not be saying, "Severus, I beg you, kill me as we agreed", *or* "Severus, I beg you, don't kill me." What he may be saying is, "Severus, I beg you, don't succumb to the lure of the Dark Side -- you're a better man than that and I have faith in you." He just did the same thing with Draco -- he probably figured it was worth a try with Snape. Maybe Dumbledore's so weakened at that point that he can't get the whole speech out -- and IIRC, Severus didn't really give him a chance for a monologue. (Who was it who said Dumbledore probably knew at this point that he was dying? I think you're spot on -- and if that's the case, why would he bother begging for his life?)

Except for the conversation that Hagrid heard in the forest where Snape and D are discussing what in retrospect seems to be the agreement to kill him...or appear to kill him.

This thing you have, Guns, about Harry's Slytherin bias. I get the sense that you think he's being unfair. Seriously, though, I think Harry's anti-Slytherin bias stems as much from the war within himself (the Sorting Had did say he could go either way) as from his dislike of Draco and his gang.

Really, the thing I have is not aboutthe bias itself...but the brilliant way JKR insinuates the bias upon the reader. We rarely see things outside of Harry's implied ot outright context(s). When we do, I submit that Harry's characterization of things (Snape's featured twisting in hatred before he issues the AC to D) should be carefully considered so as to eliminate his own lack of objectivity. As a reader it is very hard to do, of course. Such is the brilliance of JKR...but if tried,one can see that Snape is likely not Evil...just a jerk.

[Auleliel]

I'm with Guns. Free Severus!!!

I also think that Draco might not be entirely evil either.

[Seafoam Understone]

I'm with Guns. Free Severus!!!

I also think that Draco might not be entirely evil either.

Time and time again Draco has shown himself to be a coward hiding under the facade of a rich and powerful bully. Why else would he have two hulking goons like Crabbe and Goyle always at his side. So he'd feel safe because he isn't supremely confident in himself as he makes himself out to be. Which is why he balked at the idea of killing Dumbledore when it actually came down to doing it and thus Snapes adhering to the Unbreakable Vow covers the kid's ass and does the deed himself.
Hermionie was right... he's just a foul little cockaroach!

Snapes on the other hand...

[stormrider]

I also think that Draco might not be entirely evil either.

JKR has said in interviews that Malfoy wouldn't have killed Dumbledore if Snape hadn't come along and done it for him. Harry even feels a little pity for Draco at the end of HBP. I think there's a good chance he'll redeem himself.

[sindatur]

I also think that Draco might not be entirely evil either.

JKR has said in interviews that Malfoy wouldn't have killed Dumbledore if Snape hadn't come along and done it for him. Harry even feels a little pity for Draco at the end of HBP. I think there's a good chance he'll redeem himself.

Well JKR did say that Alfonso Cauron added something into PoA, that wasn't in the book, but, was very eery due to something that happens later on. Tossing the dead ferret(s) to Buckbeak wasn't in the PoA book, so is Malfoy the Bouncing Ferret gonna die in that redemption?

[stormrider]

so is Malfoy the Bouncing Ferret gonna die in that redemption?

Could be. I always loved the ferret thing.