Informal Group Read 2007

[Mortice Root]

Good summary, Soulbiter.

I think a good portion of Terisa's attraction to Eremis has to do with her own lack of self confidence. I mean, she is going back and forth as to whether or not she considers herself is real. Eremis is attractive to her, I think, because he is so sure of what he thinks and what he wants. Even though what he wants is for her to be an object, ie not a real person, he is so sure of it, that he provides an answer to her questions about herself. And it is that answer that Terisa finds so attractive.

[Cameraman Jenn]

You also have to factor in that Terisa has never had anyone act like she is HOT and Eremis is practically falling over himself to get under her skirts. That can be a very intense thing and also very heady.

[Mortice Root]

Which raises another interesting point. Are there any non-hot women in Orison? I mean, Terisa, Elega, Myste, Saddith..... I gotta find me a mirror.

[Usivius]

I've thought about the same thing many a time ...

[Cameraman Jenn]

Well, Madin was not exactly a looker and neither was Torrent.

[Mortice Root]

Maybe that's the real reason they left Orison.

[SoulBiter]

Thanks everyone. I am really enjoying these books. I must admit.. I got so caught up in the story that I have finished the first book. I am a voracious(sp?) reader once I get interested in a story.

[Cameraman Jenn]

I love that. Soulbiter, I wish you could bring that to the watch fans that never appreciated the joy and beauty and fun that is MN. I literally missed bus stops on more than one occasion by getting sucked into the story. I'm trying to drum more MN love up with this read! Thank you so much for being here for this! Seriously. I've told SRD to his face that the depth of charactors in his writing of this series are my favorite. It's one of the few series that make me actually sob. He of course, laughed and being a creature of logic and structure, smilingly tells me that while he loves his creation in MN, his favorite work so far is The Gap and that the final Chronicles will be his best catharsis. He also said that MN was the most fun he had had writing and I think it shows.

[IrrationalSanity]

One correction, SB - It was Barsonage, the Mediator, who swore Terisa (and everyone else) to silence - though it was indeed Eremis who suggested secrecy (subtrifuge and deception seem to come naturally to him, don't they? )

Also, in this chapter we are shown the Congery's Augury, which prompted both the summoning of the Champion, and Gereden's involvement in the process. The fact that augurys show "pieces of what will come" stuns Terisa, and gets her to wondering if maybe her sight of the same scene in different times was as much proof of her non-existence as she originally thought.

Just as she is starting to make some minor sense of things, she notices a piece that shows the three riders she saw in her dream back in New York! Of course, she doesn't get a chance to fully consider what this means when she is interrupted by (on one hand) Master Quillon asking if she sees anything interesting, and Master Eremis (on the other) trying to "help" her interpretation.

I'm starting to question his motivations at this point, but one thing is clear in this chapter - the conflict between Eremis and Gereden.

[Usivius]

Seriously. I've told SRD to his face that the depth of charactors in his writing of this series are my favorite. It's one of the few series that make me actually sob. He of course, laughed and being a creature of logic and structure, smilingly tells me that while he loves his creation in MN, his favorite work so far is The Gap and that the final Chronicles will be his best catharsis. He also said that MN was the most fun he had had writing and I think it shows.

very cool.
And I agree with you, Jenn.

[Mortice Root]

He also said that MN was the most fun he had had writing and I think it shows.

Agreed. MN is the only time I would consider his writing "fun" (except maybe "conqueror worm" which is fun in a really twisted sort of way). It's good to hear that he enjoyed himself while writing it.

[IrrationalSanity]

I also like MN alot, though it is interesting that I suggested it to one of my collegues who liked TCTC, and she couldn't make it all the way (I think she stopped partway into book 2). She felt it was too much like a romance for her tastes. Oh well, to each their own...

[shadowbinding shoe]

I talked with Jenn and we (and hopefully others) are gonna forge on with this reread. Hope you'll drop in.

So, since I'm reading the books from the beginning again I'll add my own comments on the beginning chapters before posting my review of the next chapter.

Chapter One: Calling

Terisa has an unusual dream. Unusual because normally she doesn't dream at all. She doesn't start having vivid dreams even later. What does this say about her? That she's not a very imaginative girl I think. She is too ground in reality (and usually its depressing sides at this point.) But at the same time she feels unreal to herself. She is a passive reflection of her surrounding. This could tie in well with the talents she develops later in the books.

The change occurs when she hears the sound of horns. What do they signify? Here's a description of them:

They carried the command of the hunt and the appeal of music, two different sounds that formed a chord in her heart, blending together so that she wanted to leap up in side herself and shout an answer. And while she heard them, everything around her changed.

The 'appeal of music' is a recognition of beauty in the world and the 'command of the hunt' is a calling to answer it. Each alone is meaningless but when they are together they fill in the empty places in Terisa's heart.

I really like the descriptions of transformation each time she hears the sound of the horns. Is she delusional in these moments, seeing so much good in the bleak world? But there's so much beauty in her new perception that we have to cherish them even if they are delusional.

Why does Terisa work in the ineffectual Mission? Maybe she wants to 'do good' but is that the driving force in her choice? I think there's an egocentric motivation for her here as well. Reverend Thatcher is a man who's supposed to help the needy in society that fell between the cracks. He turns NO-ONE down. Would he be able to draw her out of her apathetic shell of unreality? She sits with him each day in the soup kitchen (like the homeless people they help) and stares at him seeking a sign that he notices her existence. It never happens as far as she can tell and therefore he is 'weak', because he fails her as she believes he fail the rest of the homeless that depend on him.

Terisa goes on to type copies of Reverend Thatcher's letter with the same mistakes over and over again. A letter she sees as ineffectual in the first place. How telling about her. She despises her mother and yet plods on in the same despised track as her. She's too passive to try and change anything and her mother is her role-model for how she should be. And what a disgusting memory she has of her mother: "Go to your room, child," she would say in a voice as empty as her heart. "Your father and I have guests."

Finally, did anyone notice the description of Geraden's translation to Terisa's apartments? Unlike all the other translations later this one is not instantaneous:

Without warning she saw a man in the mirror.
He wasn't reflected in the mirror: he was in the mirror. He was behind her startled image - and moving forward as if he were floundering through a torrent.
... his expression was foolish with surprise and hope.
He was looking straight at her.
For an instant his mouth stretched soundlessly as if he were trying to shout through the glass. Then his arms flailed. He looked like he was loosing his balance; but his movements expressed an authority which had nothing to do with falling.
...
The mirror in front of her made no noise as it shattered.

What happened here exactly? Did he translate himself to within Terisa's mirror and only then got out to her world by breaking the mirror he was trapped in?

[Cameraman Jenn]

I like your chapter assessment although I must confess I thought you would pick up where we left off. As soon as I get more settled I'll jump in the fray again.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Well I'm not going to rehash the whole chapters here. Just add some general impressions and points I hadn't seen mentioned before. Sorry if my post on the first chapter was so long. As you said yourself there's just a lot to say about it. I'll reach the new chapter sometime next week.

I haven't been able to resist the lure of the book so I already gulped the next chapter...

Chapter Two: The Sound of Horns

I haven't got much to say about this chapter (except that I liked it of course.)

For Terisa the sound of horns is embodied by Geraden. You can tell she's drawn to Geraden on an emotional level. She likes him but isn't sure why. Her logic tries to reassert itself in her but Geraden gives it a run for its money and it has to flee with its tail between its legs.

I wonder if his 'strongest feelings' here ('are you happy? necessary? loved?) are the regular inexplicable insights or just reading Terisa's expressions / behavior?

Were you as nervous when he says "I'm not supposed to be here at all. I'm looking for someone-" before he goes on to complete his sentence ("-completely different.")? It sounded like he was saying she's not someone. That she was right all along and she was no-one. She must have been walking on daggers when she heard him say that.

In the end Terisa takes a leap into the unknown I'll read the next chapter tomorrow.

[Mortice Root]

Hi shadowbinding shoe, and welcome to the watch!

And thanks for resuscitating this thread. You've made some great points already. Glad to have you aboard.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Thanks Mortice Root.

Chapter Three: Translation

Terisa takes Geraden and they fall into Mordant. I hadn't remembered that the translations are not instantaneous. Terisa has time to: "She studied the sudden darkness intimately despite the fact that it was so brief that she could hardly have noticed it." So there's an in-between place you go to during the translations. Or am I wrong?

The Imagers of the Congery has as their sigil of office yellow satin chasubles. Does this mean they should remind us of a priest-class? They certainly hold a monopoly on the supernatural business in Mordant's world.

How do these chasubles look like? The way it's described it can't be too long. It is wrapped around their necks. Like a scarf. Terisa can see that one of the Imagers has a jerkin beneath his chasuble. So it must be shorter than a jerkin but has long tail that Master Eremis can play with.

Here we meet for the first time Master Eremis, Barsonage, Gilbur and a pipsqueak of Master Quillon. They want their champion but they're too chauvinistic to believe Terisa is anything of the sort despite Geraden's loud protests.

Master Eremis sounds the voice of reason here but looking back at his suggestion I'm left scratching my head. They have just witnessed something they can't understand and Eremis suggests they mull it over. How is that going to help? Even Master Barsonage says it would be an exercise in futility. They can't understand it and no amount of mulling would help them out. What they should do is learn more about their new candidate champion. What they should do is study Geraden's mirror. What they should do is study Geraden while he tries to make another mirror. Or ask him (and Master Gilbur) what he did when he created this mirror. Thinking about it is totally useless. In fact Eremis did intend to take Terisa with him and have a talk with her. Maybe he was going to do these things when he had her to himself. But would he explore anything more than her body?

[SoulBiter]

I finished them all and will add some as I go. I also got my daughter to start reading these and she devoured them. I couldnt get her to read the Covenant books but she loved Mordants Need.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Chapter Four: The Old Dodderer

Geraden is told by everyone to shut up, poor chap and we get to meet King Joyce and Adept Havelock.

Geraden says:

"Adept Havelock," breathed Geraden. "Some of the Masters call him 'The King's Dastard'."

das·tard (dstrd)
n.
A sneaking, malicious coward.

Surprising what new nuggets can be sifted from the books after so many rereads. He's not the king's bastard, he's his dastard. The Masters don't like their king and his Adept is the despicable traitorous Imager that helped him.

And now to important matters aka The World of Hop-Boardry or Checkerhood.

Hop-Board in Mordant's Need is the measuring stick for strategists and rulers.

Adept Havelock, King Joyce tells us, always beats him in this game. How does he do that? We get a nice demonstration in this very chapter:

At first he plays with the king.

Then, when Joyce's back is turned on him, he starts rearranging Joyce's pieces (and that's cheating in case you missed) and takes them by the heap load with his own pieces.

Finally he flings all the pieces off the board (and flings the board itself off too while he's at it.)

After he calms down a little he retrieves the board and studies the now empty board intently.

The parallels to the kingdom's history under Havelock's guidance are astounding. I guess I won't go into details here in case I might spoil it to anyone who hasn't finished the books but I leave it to you to work out the details yourself.

Terisa comes from a world where the game is called Checkers instead of Hop-Board. Meaning that in her (our) world everything works with checks and balances while in Joyce's world everybody is hopping over everybody else? Scientific law versus magical Imagedom?

Terisa knows how to play the game well but is not interested in it for its own sake. She is interested in friends. Not interested in gaining power or dabbling in politics. The ideal attitude for a person?

After Havelock made a mess of the game pieces and the king finished hurting Geraden apparently for no real reason Joyce gets down on the floor and starts picking the checkers. Better late than never I guess.



Other interesting things:

- Terisa compares the commands to keep her in the dark to her father's despotism when he took her only friend from her without a word of explanation.

- King's Joyce's smile. How does he manage it? It contains the innocence of a child. Terisa thinks:

Irrationally she felt that her entire life would have been different if she had seen anyone smile like that before

Spoiler

A foreshadowing for Nyle who did receive King Joyce's smiles?

- When King Joyce denies Terisa's right to knowledge he uses the allusion of an Alend ambassador come to visit him. Such an ambassador is not to be invited into the secret places of Orison or the king's heart.

- Joyce says that Imagery is not an old art. It only existed for a few hundred years and became a force to be reckoned with less than a hundred years before.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Chapter Five: Wardrobes Full of Clothes

What an opening scene! The previous chapter's imagery of the throne room was good. This is even better. Terrisa the dumb, Havelock the blind (stares at a blank board) and Joyce the deaf (ignores everybody in order to collect hi checkers from the floor.) You quail thinking about where Terisa is at this moment.

When Terisa meets with Angus and Ribuld again we get an interesting comparison with Thomas Covenant on the dream theme. While T.C. repeatedly said he doesn't believe in the reality of the Land and tries to ignore his responsibility to it he never thinks everything is going to vanish the next moment. It may not be 'the real world' but he takes for granted its inner consistency. Terisa on the other hand REALLY believes in the unreality of the situation. For all she knows Geraden, king Joyce and Adept Havelock have evaporated while her back was turned to her. The discovery that the sun has set (proving the passing of time) gives her a shock of relief. Because she doesn't believe in herself, all her beliefs are much more flimsy and insubstantial.

Terisa reverting to the status of a little girl pawing through her mother's clothing and cosmetics was cute.

Closets are really important places in Terisa's life. On the one hand they're the (unexplored) portal to reaching womanhood and on the other hand they're the dark punishment place where her father locked her up. Her father made the road to womanhood too scary for her. All she has before Geraden appears in her life are the lifeless clothes her father chose for her.

Here Terisa dares once more to try attractive clothes given to her by Saddith / Myste / Joyce. And here once more the darkness of the closet opens up through the agency of Havelock to devour her.