Ramen flawed memory, and Mahrtiir

[Borillar]

Apologies if this has already been addressed, but I couldn't find it after doing a quick search.

The Ramen in Runes revere Covenant, and although they acknowledge that the Ranyhyn fear him, they talk of how this fear is mixed with respect and how ultimately he saved them, and how he never rode them. But they seem to have forgotten how he made them promise to save him if he needed him, a promise that shackled them to the Land (as Piettien points out) and which was done out of Covenant's self-preservation. Now obviously he didn't realize that his promise would cause them such misery, but nonetheless it seems like an odd thing to have been forgotten over the years, doesn't it?

And while I'm on the subject of the Ramen, what do people make of Mahrtiir's apparent lust for violence? It reminded me of Piettien in a way.

[Corwin]

I think that the Ramen understood that it was the Ranyhyn's \Choice to stay and obey covenant, and in that, they are unable to place direct blame upon covenant.

[Relayer]

I've posted in the Runes dissections some thoughts about Mahrtiir. There certainly seems to be something about him... not only his lust for violence. Many Ramen seem to share that when it comes to Fangthane. Or the Haruchai

But he is not content to just be another Ramen, he wants to strike blows that will be remembered forever. This could be ego, or a hidden evil, or it could be an evolution of his people into taking more responsibility for the big picture, that the way to serve the Ranyhyn has become more than just tending them directly.

He also seems to know more about power than would be expected from a Ramen. There's something about the questions he asks Linden about caesures, and about the Word of Warning at the Waynhim cave...

[wayfriend]

I, too, have noticed that the Ramen don't seem to recall that Covenant almost made the Ranyhyn extinct, and have commented on that in the dissection.

I would have to agree that, if there is an explanation, it would have to be that the Ramen don't have opinions on the Ranyhyn's choices. Or that, by defeating Fangthane in the end, it justified everything Covenant did.

[Relayer]

The Ramen also seem to have forgotten that they are not incorruptible... two Ramen were taken over by Ravers in TPTP. Doesn't that make them just like Korik? Or do they differentiate between "possession by Raver" and "compelled by the Illearth Stone"?

if there is an explanation, it would have to be that the Ramen don't have opinions on the Ranyhyn's choices.

That would make sense towards the Haruchai too. Even though the Ranyhyn freely chose it, the Ramen accepted Bloodguard "riding Ranyhyn into death" only because they were fighting Fangthane. They felt it offended the honor of the Ranyhyn that Haruchai whom they served had become servants of corruption, and the sacrifice was no longer worthy. They can't let go of their hatred because they somehow expect Haruchai to be perfect; that if anyone was ever corrupted, the whole race is to blame forever. Based on that, they should hate every race except the Ranyhyn... yet they trust ur-viles? Go figure.

[wayfriend]

Darn, you're right! If they hate the Bloodguard, they would hate Covenant, too.

But they didn't despise the Lords. Hmm...

[dlbpharmd]

The Ramen also seem to have forgotten that they are not incorruptible... two Ramen were taken over by Ravers in TPTP. Doesn't that make them just like Korik? Or do they differentiate between "possession by Raver" and "compelled by the Illearth Stone"?

Didn't Elena help in their possession (with the SoL?)

[Relayer]

Good point about the Lords.

I don't remember what Elena's involvement was... but by the "Ramen code" as displayed by their attitude towards the Haruchai, they should hate everyone. Maybe SRD has a specific reason, for example he's leading us up to a plot point where it's important that the Ramen have to deal with their contradictions.

[aliantha]

Good point about the Lords.

I don't remember what Elena's involvement was... but by the "Ramen code" as displayed by their attitude towards the Haruchai, they should hate everyone. Maybe SRD has a specific reason, for example he's leading us up to a plot point where it's important that the Ramen have to deal with their contradictions.

That makes sense. He's already been pretty hard on the Haruchai. Maybe it's the Ramen's turn....

[Aleksandr]

Re: The Ramen also seem to have forgotten that they are not incorruptible... two Ramen were taken over by Ravers in TPTP.


True, but did the Ramen find out about that? The Cords died, as did Foamfollower and Triock, and TC went his way. Bannor might have caught up with them afterward and told the whole story but we don't know that.

[Borillar]

The Ramen who were possessed by Ravers weren't in the process of doing something as arrogant as trying to challenge Lord Foul to physical combat, though. The Ramen have always seemed to me to accept the strictures of their mortality, but their unquestioning belief of the perfection of the Ranyhyn appears to be the source of their downfall.

[MsMary]

I think that the Ramen understood that it was the Ranyhyn's \Choice to stay and obey covenant, and in that, they are unable to place direct blame upon covenant.

This doesn't make sense to me. Even though the Ramen understood that it was the Ranyhyn's choice, that didn't stop them from blaming Covenant for forcing the Ranyhyn to make that choice in the First Chronicles.

[dlbpharmd]

I think that the Ramen understood that it was the Ranyhyn's \Choice to stay and obey covenant, and in that, they are unable to place direct blame upon covenant.

This doesn't make sense to me. Even though the Ramen understood that it was the Ranyhyn's choice, that didn't stop them from blaming Covenant for forcing the Ranyhyn to make that choice in the First Chronicles.

Agreed, the Ramen were definitely pissed at Covenant that the Ranyhyn were still in the Land suffering through Foul's winter.

[wayfriend]

I was thinking about this during my lunchtime walk around the office park yesterday.

I think there are a couple of clues. First, the Ramen in ROTE use the term "Bloodguard" as an epithet: I think we might conclude that, whatever it is that the Ramen have against the Haruchai, it stems from the Bloodguard days. Second, during LFB, the Ramen and the Bloodguard exhibit a tension between them as between rivals, but not outright disrespect.

So, whatever is "the issue", I think it happened sometime during the Illearth War period - it was after LFB, but while the Haruchai were still Bloodguard.

We know that The Ramen had always secretly hated the Bloodguard because so many Ranyhyn had died while bearing the Bloodguard in battle. [TPTP]

But I think the hatred became open hatred when the Bloodguard ended their Vow. The Ramen must see this as nothing less than betrayal. The Ramen do not judge their own service, they could not conceive of ending their service to the Ranyhyn just because their service is imperfect. They aren't as demanding as the Haruchai are, they are more forgiving of their own flaws. The mere fact that they let ex-Bloodguard serve the Ranyhyn in TPTP shows that they believe service justifies itself, it doesn't have to be earned.

[kevinswatch]

I think the answer to all of these questions is: the Ramen are silly.-jay

[aliantha]

I think the answer to all of these questions is: the Ramen are silly.-jay

Yeah. And that Mahrtiir guy creeps me out.

[ParanoiA]

Actually, I thought the deal covenant made with the Ranyhyn was unbeknownst to anyone else. I don't remember the exact wording, and it's been years since I've read it, but I'm thinking it was between him and the Ranyhyn and no one else really knew about it.

Also, in Runes, I remember Stave mentioned the Ranyhyn visiting Lena, and later Elena for a horserite - I don't remember the Ramen talking about this. Are they even aware of that part of the deal?

And I have to admit, I'm quite surprised about the reaction to Mahrtiir. Just seemed like another battle hungry character, wide eyed and impressed by The Chosen, to me.

[dlbpharmd]

Actually, I thought the deal covenant made with the Ranyhyn was unbeknownst to anyone else. I don't remember the exact wording, and it's been years since I've read it, but I'm thinking it was between him and the Ranyhyn and no one else really knew about it.

Also, in Runes, I remember Stave mentioned the Ranyhyn visiting Lena, and later Elena for a horserite - I don't remember the Ramen talking about this. Are they even aware of that part of the deal?

And I have to admit, I'm quite surprised about the reaction to Mahrtiir. Just seemed like another battle hungry character, wide eyed and impressed by The Chosen, to me.

Covenant spoke to the Ranyhyn and gave them the terms of his bargain, which they accepted. All who were in attendance (Lords, Ramen, etc) were aware of the arrangement Covenant had made.

[wayfriend]

Pietten certainly knew about the promise. He tells Covenant so.

[ParanoiA]

Yeah, I went back and re-read it. I guess I thought they had encircled him and it was "implied" the conversation was between Covenant and the Ranyhyn. After reading it again, it's quite clear they are were aware of the whole conversation. SRD even goes to the trouble to mention that they didn't judge Covenant for this because he was "beyond them". (As is the case with several characters throughout the series).