Kevin's Watch

READ AT YOUR OWN RISK!!! SERIOUS SPOILER ALERT!!!

Seriously, there are endgame spoilers in this thread, and I want to discuss them without having to block everything from view! I am giving you time to look at this and regret your decision to enter this thread if you have NOT read Fatal Revenant cover to cover!!!

















Seriously, hit the back button if you arent completely finished with Fatal Revenant.






























Honestly, it's not really my fault if something is spoilt at this point is it?


























Ok, I finished the book, and LOVED it, but I still have some questions.

1) Why exactly is it that Roger and the Croyel cant just go back in time and create a paradox big enough to destroy the Arch of time? Hell, Roger was within spitting distance of Berek, I can't believe that the Theomach or the Elohim could stop him in time if he decided to kill him, and that would certainly be irreperable damage, unless the Elohim were enabled to ressurect him to preserve time.

2) Linden knows the Theomach's true name. Do the Masters? I can understand the masters knowing it and not invoking it, but It seems like Lindon could certainly have used him in the latter half of the novel, if only to answer some questions. Did she just not think of it? Or is there another reason? (SRD is probably saving it for the next book )

3) You know, for being equal to all things the Elohim seem pretty damn worthless. Why couldnt Infelice just stop Lindon from using the Krill? Is it because she was in Andelain? Do they still trust her enough to just try to persuade her from doing something REALLY stupid? Are they afraid of what she would do if they tried to stop her? (Im leaning on this one, but just goes to show how far the Elohim's heads are up their own asses)

Edit: Edited due to unexpected complaints of spoilerism. Also, if you havn't read FR and you read this post... well I warned you. (Just praise jesus I didnt go with my original wording for topic three. You know, instead of "Using the Krill" I had something else written...)

Some good questions which may or may not have explanations. I can answer the second easily though. Can I suggest the use of spoilers in your post btw.

Spoiler

The Theomach was killed during the second chronicles and we have no evidence so far he can physically travel in time

I thought the whole point of having a super secret FR forum was so we didn't have to worry about spoiler tags. Anyway…

First, they are called the insequent after all, I've seen nothing to make me believe that time really has any meaning to them. For all we know, they exist in all time simultaneously, with the Theomach that tutored Berek having full knowledge of the future Theomach who is defeated by Brinn. After all, he knew who Roger, Jeremiah and Lindon were, which strongly implies that he has knowledge past his defeat by Brinn. I tend to believe that they follow their own linear time, and Lindon implied that you will never encounter an Elohim or Insequent that doesn't remember your previous encounter, in other words, you always encounter them after you last saw them.

Second, he was defeated by Brinn, not necessarily killed. To be fair, I will have to look through TOT to see if it's specifically stated that Brinn killed him. Even if he was killed, that could have been at the end of a *sequence* of time that only ends at that moment.

Third, I am beginning to suspect that the Theomach threw the fight. It would of course, rob the Haruchai of their single greatest moment to find this out, and I suspect he is bigger than to let them know unless he absolutely has too, but I think it was absolutely necessary for him to lose that fight. People keep telling Lindon that the staff of law is doing more harm than good, but I think that’s bullshit. The staff is important, it must be, and I think the Theomach knows this (why else would he make the first one?)

It's something Infelice says at the end of FR that makes me think this, that the Theomach is the greatest of the insequent, but lost to a mere Haruchai. I know that the Elohim are Haughty as all hell, but she has a point, how can a being that we know to be even greater than the Harrow, the Vizard, and the Mahbdoubt, who's powers are all incredible, have lost to Brinn?

I hope that obfuscates things for you

The Dreaming wrote:I thought the whole point of having a super secret FR forum was so we didn't have to worry about spoiler tags. Anyway…

Yes, it is. Your thread title is aptly titled. I see no need for spoiler tags here.

Seareach wrote:

The Dreaming wrote:I thought the whole point of having a super secret FR forum was so we didn't have to worry about spoiler tags. Anyway…

Yes, it is. Your thread title is aptly titled. I see no need for spoiler tags here.

I think some people want to just be a bit spoilered, if that makes sense. And they don't really realise just how much the spoiler will spoil things. It's more of a murder mystery book than people perhaps realise.

The Dreaming wrote:I've seen nothing to make me believe that time really has any meaning to them. For all we know, they exist in all time simultaneously

Spoiler

No the other one, whose name escapes me for the moment, couldn't travel in time at all. That was a key plot point. And only the Mahdoubt was seen to actually time travel.

I rather thought it was the nature of the insequent to flit around through time. I was under the impression that is why they are called "Insequent". The idea of sequence can't be applied to them. I simply got the impression that the Harrow was defeated because of his relative lack of mastery over time compared to the mahbdoubt. Just because she had the power to banish him to another time doesnt mean he has no knowledge of time, just a relative lack. Hell, they seem to be immortal anyway, even if she did send him to the distant past, he would still probably still exist. (unless there is some law about people being in the same place at the same time as themselves)

Also, we know the Vizard has some mastery over time, and the Theomach must share at least SOME mastery, otherwise how could he know as much as he knew? I got the impression that the Theomach Lindon encountered knew everything about her, Covenant, Roger, Jeremiah, and the Croyel, which I can't imagine him knowing unless he can flit about time the way the Mahbdoubt and the Elohim can. (And probably the vizard too, from the way he is said to fight)

native wrote:

Seareach wrote:

The Dreaming wrote:I thought the whole point of having a super secret FR forum was so we didn't have to worry about spoiler tags. Anyway…

Yes, it is. Your thread title is aptly titled. I see no need for spoiler tags here.

I think some people want to just be a bit spoilered, if that makes sense. And they don't really realise just how much the spoiler will spoil things. It's more of a murder mystery book than people perhaps realise.

I hear you, Native. However, the reason that this forum is hidden is to avoid a lot of these issues. This forum should be taken like the Runes forum: things aren't spoilered there either. If we start talking about what should and shouldn't be spoilered it all becomes very subjective. What one considers a spoiler might not be the same for another. As is mentioned in the sticky for this forum: if people don't want to come across spoilers they are advised not to look at this forum. I, honestly, don't want everything in this forum to be spoiler tagged! That said, most people have been using spoiler tags. However, even though The Dreaming has not, he has done everything possible to warn people that this thread contains significant spoilers. I'm sorry to anyone who passes his "word of warning"...but...

Seareach wrote:I hear you, Native. However, the reason that this forum is hidden is to avoid a lot of these issues.

Yeah fair enough if people don't want to. I just think of the spoiler tags almost like punctuation marks. It somehow makes me cringe when they aren't there. I know that sounds completely ridiculous but....

The Dreaming wrote: Also, we know the Vizard has some mastery over time

How do we know that. I came away with the exact opposite impression.

The Dreaming wrote:I rather thought it was the nature of the insequent to flit around through time. I was under the impression that is why they are called "Insequent". The idea of sequence can't be applied to them.

Also, we know the Vizard has some mastery over time, and the Theomach must share at least SOME mastery, otherwise how could he know as much as he knew? I got the impression that the Theomach Lindon encountered knew everything about her, Covenant, Roger, Jeremiah, and the Croyel, which I can't imagine him knowing unless he can flit about time the way the Mahbdoubt and the Elohim can. (And probably the vizard too, from the way he is said to fight)

Tricky. I thought that only some of the Insequent can "flit" through time. The Mahdoubt can, obviously, but if my recollection serves me correctly that was actually part of her quest for knowledge--being able to travel through time. I think the Harrow can traverse space (go from one place to the other easily) but cannot traverse time. I base that on the Mahdoubt's threat that she would send the Harrow so far back in time he would be somewhere where his quest could not be fulfilled (sorry, my paraphrasing is atrocious!).

Your observation about the Theomach is one I'm unsure about. He tells Linden she knows his "true name" and, in that case, one would think that he knows the future as well as the past.

native wrote:

The Dreaming wrote: Also, we know the Vizard has some mastery over time

How do we know that. I came away with the exact opposite impression.

Because of the way he fights the Haruchai, it seems to me that he slows or stops time to the point he can just clobber them at his leisure. I also thought that the Harrow clobbered the Humbled in the same way.

And IF the Mahbdoubt had sent him into the past, what then? I don't think the Insequent are exactly mortal, what's to keep him from just walking right back into the scene after the Mahbdoubt banishes him? (albeit a couple thousand years older) Now if she sent him into the distant future...

The Dreaming wrote:And IF the Mahbdoubt had sent him into the past, what then? I don't think the Insequent are exactly mortal, what's to keep him from just walking right back into the scene after the Mahbdoubt banishes him? (albeit a couple thousand years older) Now if she sent him into the distant future...

part 2, chapter 4 wrote:“The Mahdoubt gained his oath by revealing that her knowledge might displace him to another age of the Earth, a time in which the objects of his greed would not exist. There he would remain, abandoned, useless to himself, until his spirit was broken.

So, that's the reason given. Sending him to the distant future she can't do: I can't remember where but the Mahdoubt explains she cannot know the future (and that means she cannot travel into the future--only into the past and then back to the point of the present) so therefore she can't send him there either.

So 10 thousand years to twiddle his thumbs would humble him? I guess. What would happen if he encountered his past self though? I also got the impression that all of the insequent were the same age. (Something the Mahbdoubt says about them all being young together)

You have a point. I assume that the Mahdoubt meant she'd send him to a time so far back his spirit would be broken before he possibly bumped into himself. However that doesn't work in the sense that that's changing the linear nature of Time (if he is sent back to a time before the Insequent existed)....

I admit I do not have a grasp on how all this time traveling stuff works. Perhaps it's just one of these things which will make more sense as we learn more about the Insequent??

I don't think we have enough info on the Insequent to figure them out yet. I forgot about the "being young together" statement. But perhaps that just refers to this given generation or group of Insequent - it could be that they were "friends" growing up, but ended up at different ends of things later.

I also don't think that the Insequent are immortal - just very very long lived. If they "were young" together, then it seems to infer that they would also grow old and die around the same (relative) time. So perhaps ten thousand years of the Harrow sitting around twiddling his thumbs would age him enough to be less of a threat - or perhaps long enough to die. Or perhaps he'd do something else in that time to get himself killed.

Regarding Roger and the Croyel... I think that the Elohim would prevent them from creating any temporal disturbances serious enough to bring down Time. But more importantly, I don't think that it was their intention to do so, anyway (despite Roger's monologue). Here's my take on it (which is safe to present, since it has never been confirmed nor denied by anyone who would know the "truth").

Spoiler

It is as the Mahdoubt says - Roger's intent was to cause Linden enough despair so she would do what she did at the end of the book. Roger wanted to imitate Covenant enough so that Linden would go with him to the past, but also wanted to inject enough doubt so that she'd Command exactly what she did - the truth. That is what pushed her over the edge, and the events of the rest of the book were to teach her that she was insufficient - to either save the Earth or rescue her son. It's the most well crafted plot I've ever seen - which is why I said in the past that it was like the Gap series only in the Land. And I don't think we've seen the true depths of the rabbit hole yet. For example, take Esmer. That little fargin bastage (to quote Roman Moronie). Let's see a show of hands - how many people thought that he was helping Linden when he told her that she must be the first to drink the Earthblood? That was a betrayal. "You shouldn't betray me, Esmer. My mother betrayed me once. Once." All the same people, all the same scenes, all the same words - but they mean SO much more after making it through the whole book.

Honestly, I think Esmer is trying as hard as he can to help Lindon while fulfilling the compulsion of his grandfather. So far, all of his betrayals have been conspicuously surmountable, and his aid has been beyond value.

I’m rereading the 2nd chronicles now, and too many people just remind Covenant over and over again that Vain's purpose is very desirable. For some reason, making the staff WAS crucial, and I think its recovery also was, despite what the elohim say.

I also can't buy that it was a bad idea for Lindon to be the first to drink Earthblood. It definitely would have been endgame for Lindon if Roger had drank first, because while they may take pleasure in letting Lindon be responsible for breaking the Arch, if they get the opportunity I think they will take it. I think Plan A is and has always been break the Arch, get free. However they just don't have the power without either getting the white gold, or drinking earthblood, or perhaps they have a few other plans they are working on that we don't know about.

I don't think they really expected Lindon to let them drink the Earthblood, and it's all part of a greater plan. Letting Roger drink would certainly enable him to break the arch, but I don’t think that was the entire reason they brought Lindon there. But then, "It boots nothing to avoid his snares, for they are ever beset with more snares"

I am also not convinced that Lindon's use of the Krill is as big a disaster as it seems. If I know Donaldson, I know it might end up saving the world, in a better outcome than could have been hoped for. After all, in the end, Foul always seems to be the agent of his own demise. He consistently underestimates the White Gold Wielder.

Certainly, planting doubt and making Lindon a device for desecration is the plan he his ultimately working toward. It's not plan a, but I bet it's his favorite. I also think removing Covenant from his role as Timewarden is going to have terrible consequences in the Short term.

But the problem is, we know that the good guys win, we just don't really know how. (I wasn't as sure in the Gap )

I came away confused by much of the plot in relation to time travel and the arch. We're sometimes told that Kastenessen wants to destroy the arch to find oblivion, then at other times he fears what Linden might do if she unleashes her power. We're told Linden cannot threaten the arch and that she can. Covenant tells Linden to find her but

Spoiler

then seems pissed off when she does.

We're told that caesures don't go back further than a few hundred years yet Esmer uses one to go back to the time of the Demondin. But Linden goes back only a few hundred years further than that and then claims she can't use a caesure to escape because it will damage time. However that restriction isn't shared by at least two others.

In short we're told a lot of things that don't quite make sense but seem to be convenient for the plot at the given moment. It works better if you include the possibility that Linden is wrong about most everything and lots of people are lying. Then it's all fine. But it also means we're none the wiser about much of what's really going on.

I suspect that ties in to what the ur viles are trying to tell her. Or else that SRD is making it up as he goes along.

Correction- we are told that Ceasures cant go back further than the breaking of the law of death/life. thats around 3500-7000 years. Do we know that there werent any Demondim in the time of Mhorim?

Also, Esmer is part Elohim, maybe his power over time enables him to send 'em back a little farthur.

Did anyone else think it was waaaaayyyy too convenient for Esmer to be able to remove the Giant's gift of tongues bequeathed by the Elohim?