"Mother of All Spoilers . . . "

[Zarathustra]

Holy Crap! SRD dropped an enormous clue in the GI:

If any of that is true, the Despiser could never acquiesce in his own destruction: the Creator might conceivably do so. (What? Did you think it was an *accident* that no one appeared to warn Linden before she entered the Land for "The Last Chronicles"? <malign grin>)

Is he finally admitting that the Creator IS Covenant? Covenant certainly acquiesced in his own destruction.

[Relayer]

Yea, I saw that too. Whether that implies Covenant we don't know but it certainly begs the comparison.

It also seems to negate all our speculations about whether the creator might have appeared to someone else "offscreen' like Jeremiah.

[Mortice Root]

Interesting, Malik. When I read it, though, I didn't get the Creator=Covenant vibe from it. I saw it as preparation for the possible destruction of the Land and the Creator, but I don't see this as an admission that TC=Creator, despite there being similarities between the two.

[King Elessar 8]

Holy Crap! SRD dropped an enormous clue in the GI:

If any of that is true, the Despiser could never acquiesce in his own destruction: the Creator might conceivably do so. (What? Did you think it was an *accident* that no one appeared to warn Linden before she entered the Land for "The Last Chronicles"? <malign grin>)

Is he finally admitting that the Creator IS Covenant? Covenant certainly acquiesced in his own destruction.

Myabe it will turn out that Covenant is the Creator and Roger is the Despiser.

[Ur Dead]

The Creator appeared to Covenant once while on TC world. And once to Linden. He(Creator) never again appeared to them afterwards. Except at the end of TPTP when he saves Covenant from the serum.

[dlbpharmd]

Holy Crap! SRD dropped an enormous clue in the GI:

If any of that is true, the Despiser could never acquiesce in his own destruction: the Creator might conceivably do so. (What? Did you think it was an *accident* that no one appeared to warn Linden before she entered the Land for "The Last Chronicles"? <malign grin>)

Is he finally admitting that the Creator IS Covenant? Covenant certainly acquiesced in his own destruction.

Myabe it will turn out that Covenant is the Creator and Roger is the Despiser.

Oh dear God I hope not!

[King Elessar 8]

Holy Crap! SRD dropped an enormous clue in the GI:
Is he finally admitting that the Creator IS Covenant? Covenant certainly acquiesced in his own destruction.

Myabe it will turn out that Covenant is the Creator and Roger is the Despiser.

Oh dear God I hope not!

You hope not for their sakes, or because you think it would be a poor storytelling decision on the part of Donaldson?

I don't actually think this will turn out to be the case by the way, but SRD did sound a little evasive to me when he was discussing the question of Covenant being Foul, almost as if he were trying to pick his words on the subject very carefully.

[wayfriend]

If TC is the Creator, then SRD is gonna have a heck of a time explaining what the heck really happened in LFB when TC was talking to the old beggar. And how does Lord Foul "choose" TC when the Creator had already created the Arch of Time and threw Foul into the Earth?

I think something happened to the Creator which is independent of TC's death. (Can we officially say that TC was "destroyed", when there's a whole nuther four Chronicles about him?) I think that there will be a lot of themic resonance, like between TC and Hamako, but it won't be anything like TC dies and the Creator mysteriously clutches his heart and keels over.

In fact, I think it's much more likely that the destruction of the Creator will coincide a lot more with the destruction of the Earth than it will the destruction of TC. I think that what the Creator has acquisced to is the destruction of the Earth.

[Zarathustra]

Whatever turns out happening, it's going to be surprising. Otherwise, the Creator's absence in the Last Chronicles wouldn't be the "mother of all spoilers." Clearly, the reason why he didn't show up this time around is for a profoundly shocking reason, something that causes our understanding of the Creator to be transformed. Either his nature will have to be reevaluated, or unknown factors which affect his actions will be revealed. Maybe it's not as straightforward and literal as I've suggested, but it's got to be for some deep reason tied to Covenant and (apparently) Covenant's sacrifice at the end WGW. There was the <malign grin> we have to worry about. So Donaldson is telling us that we'll have to dig deeper than his necessarily incomplete, and perhaps misleading, teaser revelation. But his hint still has to be related in some fashion, otherwise he's just blatantly lying to us, baiting us into believing something incorrect.

[The Laughing Man]

is there any proof that a Creator actually exists? As far as I know, the Creator remains a legend, handed down by the inhabitants of a world that profess His existence, but heretofore has never actually revealed Himself has He? And who is to say what the Creators actual intentions are? Are our examples of faith any indication of how we interpret the desires and machinations of a God noone ever sees? Maybe Foul invented Him, and is actually the Creator? Or just some schlep who has to justify his own existence?

[King Elessar 8]

is there any proof that a Creator actually exists? As far as I know, the Creator remains a legend, handed down by the inhabitants of a world that profess His existence, but heretofore has never actually revealed Himself has He? And who is to say what the Creators actual intentions are? Are our examples of faith any indication of how we interpret the desires and machinations of a God noone ever sees? Maybe Foul invented Him, and is actually the Creator? Or just some schlep who has to justify his own existence?

As far as we know, the Creator talked to Covenant at the end of The Power that Preserves, and I am pretty sure it was all but stated the being speaking to Covenant at that time was the same "person" as the old beggar who appeared at the beginning of the story (and eventually the beginning of TWL). I suppose it might turn out he doesn't exist in the final chronicles, but it would be a retcon of what was written originally.

[Holsety]

As far as we know, the Creator talked to Covenant at the end of The Power that Preserves, and I am pretty sure it was all but stated the being speaking to Covenant at that time was the same "person" as the old beggar who appeared at the beginning of the story (and eventually the beginning of TWL). I suppose it might turn out he doesn't exist in the final chronicles, but it would be a retcon of what was written originally.

Ya, besides the similarities in terms of timing and whatnot both wore ochre robes. If it's not the same beggar, then the creator passed from one to the next.

We don't "know" that the creator exists, but we know it as much as we know that lord foul, thomas covenant, linden avery, and so forth exist.

[emotional leper]

What if the Old Man in the Ochre Robes wasn't actually the Creator -- What if it was an avatar of Lord Foul?

[Xar]

What if the Old Man in the Ochre Robes wasn't actually the Creator -- What if it was an avatar of Lord Foul?

That's not possible... Foul couldn't exert any influence in TC's world until the Law of Death was broken (this was mentioned in passing during the Second Chronicles), apart from subtly guiding the summoning towards one he thought would serve his ends. Even in the Second and Last Chronicles he doesn't physically manifest (he only appears as eyes, or as a figure of flame, but no physical presence).

As for further proof that the old man was the Creator and not just a bum... remember that in the Second Chronicles he seemed to have a heart attack, Linden tried to revive him and jammed a syringe into his chest, and as soon as she finished and was left panting, he stood up with no trace of even a faint weakness, gave her his encouragement and disappeared. I doubt that a normal human who just went through a heart attack (and we know he had one, since Linden treated him and she's a physician) could even just stand and walk, let alone look as strong as a healthy person or disappear in the wind.

[GrinsiKleinPo]

hmmmm

for me, as german, TC are the great "Maybe" and not the great "it may be so". I dont like humans like Gods. I like a maybe or maybe not TC not a it-maybe-so TC.

I hope someone can understand this crap of an old german.

btw i think a mix of Linden with TC can kick LF balls better then the creator can create some new ones.


Ohh and dont forget this --> nothing are so easy as it locks like. really nothing.

[ScrapOSamadhi]

This appears to be a theme in SRD's works. Brinn at the one tree, Covenant at the end of WGW. His quote only hinted that the Creator was capable of acquiessing to his own destruction where Foul wasn't. It may be that because Foul is trapped in the Arch of Time he cannot "die" so isn't capable at the moment of making that kind of sacrifice, or more likely his personality/flaws prevent him.

I suspect a trap is being laid for Foul by the Creator.

As for speculation on how it could all end (minor Fatal Revenant Spoiler):

Spoiler

If Jerimiah can make "doors" which are prisons, what is to stop him from making one "out" of the world for Lord Foul which leads to a prison instead.

[Atrium]

One thing thats always bothered me about the Creator:
Donaldson has given us two creation myths explaining how his fantasy world came into being. And he has given us good reason to believe them both valid. But the myths seem mutually exclusive:

Myth 1
The Creator creates the world, and fills it with wonders while his evil brother secretely ruins it.

Myth 2
The world come into being after the Worm of worlds end eats enough stars to sate his hunger and rolls into sleep. This myth lacks a conscient creator. The world forms on the Worms body (as i remember it).

So which one is it? We know that both the Creator and the Worm exists.

[wayfriend]

So which one is it?

The answer (as I see it):

We all see the world through perceptual filters. We emphasize some things and leave others out. The various myths and legends of the Land reveal some truth about the Land itself (the creation of the Earth, etc.); but they also reveal some truth about the people telling the story. Those myths and legends diverge because the people telling them are different from each other.

(08/28/2005)

[Zarathustra]

In arguing whether the Chronicles are religious or not (TC forum), I posted this:

In my view, *meaning* is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). That, among several other reasons, is why the Creator has effectively vanished from "The Last Chronicles": I'm trying to tighten my thematic focus and keep it where it belongs.

(10/22/2008)

I was arguing in that thread that TC becomes his own "god" in the WGW. The last section of that book, "apotheosis," is named for a word which means: Exaltation to divine rank or stature; deification.

That has to be the reason why the old beggar did not show up. The Creator has vanished because TC has become one with his Creator, become the "god" of his own inner world. He is no longer at odds with his creative side--at least not in the way he was in the first 2 Chrons.

[High Lord Tolkien]

In arguing whether the Chronicles are religious or not (TC forum), I posted this:

In my view, *meaning* is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). That, among several other reasons, is why the Creator has effectively vanished from "The Last Chronicles": I'm trying to tighten my thematic focus and keep it where it belongs.

(10/22/2008)

I was arguing in that thread that TC becomes his own "god" in the WGW. The last section of that book, "apotheosis," is named for a word which means: Exaltation to divine rank or stature; deification.

That has to be the reason why the old beggar did not show up. The Creator has vanished because TC has become one with his Creator, become the "god" of his own inner world. He is no longer at odds with his creative side--at least not in the way he was in the first 2 Chrons.

You just put together several of my disjointed thoughts and spelled out (better than I) what I have been thinking about for a while now.