Ongoing FR thoughts--ch7

[Zarathustra]

Ok, now it is starting to pick up. Page 144. Theomach. Berek. Nice.

My original plan was to start a new thread for every chapter, so that we could talk about this while reading it--without spoiling anything in the process. So PLEASE! don't talk about things that happen later. I realize I'm taking a big chance on being spoiled just by being here; but I think with a little care and common sense, we can include those who are still plodding along (like me). I feel like Covenant asking Linden not to touch him, or he'll disappear. Being here and hoping not to be spoiled is inherently problematic. But I would just like to say, once again, how disappointed I was to read a MAJOR spoiler in a thread started by Earthpower who said he was only on page 140. The one about the swear words. (Nice job, Rocksister.

Spoiler

"The cursing was a dead giveaway that it wasn't Covenant, but I kind of cringed nonetheless."

I stopped reading right there, so I don't know

Spoiler

if Covenant's real identity was spoiled, too. I'm guessing that it is Kastenessen, by the red fire in his eyes.

But I don't want to know if I'm right!)

Anyway, the Theomach is cool. Yes, I did notice his use of, "assuredly." And I'm guessing that he is one of the Insequent. So my guess is that the Mahdoubt is one of the Insquent, too. (Since I'm guessing, this can't be a spoiler. Pure speculation. So don't tell me if I'm right!)

Anyway, I found it hilarious that Covenant described the Theomach's "path" as "gratuitous." I instantly thought Donaldson was having fun with us, that he felt this particular narrative path was gratuitous, too, on some level. After telling us for years that he'd never do a prequel, now he takes us back to the single most pivotal moment in the entire history of the Land. Berek's battles, and his acquiring Earthpower. Right now, Linden has chosen to go to his camp and get some food and horses. So I don't know how that's going to turn out. But I'm very excited to see it play out.

At the same time, I recognize that my excitement isn't entirely for narrative reasons or particularly character-driven. It's more a curiosity to see this legendary time and these legendary people. In that sense, this is a bit gratuitous. It's like looking up the Land's skirt. It feels cheap and wrong, but I still want to see it.

Eventually, I suppose I'll stop comparing this book to the previous chronicles, but so far I can't stop. This one is still falling way short. I'm 1/4 of the way through this book, and 700+ pages into the Last Chronicles, and I'm still waiting for the magic. I'm still waiting for the reason why this Chronicles had to be written, instead of letting it end at the 2nd Chronicles. Approaching the halfway point (the end of this book), I shouldn't still be wondering why this Chronicles had to be written. That nagging doubt makes all of this feel a bit gratuitous. I can't wait to be proven wrong.

[Rocksister]

You're welcome, Malik23!!!! But I wasn't the person who spilled the beans about TC's cursing being a dead giveaway; read the earlier posts there; I don't deserve the little devil face. The FR forum was created to discuss the book. There are going to be spoilers; the sticky notes, if you read them, explained that very clearly. Sorry, I don't feel bad for anything I wrote in here. Spoiler tags are not needed here, as stated, and that is why you have to register separately to get in here. If you see a sign that says don't feed the tigers, but you do anyway and lose an arm, you can't blame the zoo. Anyway, I love you!!!! Enjoy the rest of the book.

[Rocksister]

Welcome to the Fatal Revenant forum!
Sticky notes from forum intro:

This hidden forum that can't be viewed by members unless they have subscribed to it so

a) you no do not have to worry about using spoiler tags when discussing the contents Fatal Revenant. [/b]

b) Regarding thread titles: our "subjects can be spoilers too" issue isn't as big an issue anymore. However, I'd suggest that you try not to be overly specific (eg: calling a thread "Covenant and Linden get married at the end of FR and have a baby" might spoil it for some readers who are subscribed to this forum but haven't finished the book).

If you are concerned about coming across spoilers about Fatal Revenant I suggest you leave this forum until you have read the book.

[Zarathustra]

I don't deserve the little devil face.

Rocksister, oh you deserve the little devil face. Maybe it's not for this particular instance, but we all deserve a little devil face every now and then.

Ok, I'm not even sure what that means. But I'm glad you still "love" me and have a sense of humor about it.

I have read the sticky. And I recognize my own precarious state in being here. However, you have to admit that the sticky rules are aren't as clear as you claim. They contain a contradiction which itself suggests using a bit of common sense.

The contradiction lies with the suggestion that we don't have to worry about spoiling anything (i.e. by not having to use spoiler tags), combined with the advice to not spoil things too terribly by having specific titles to threads. How can both rules be upheld at the same time? How can we not worry about spoiling things, and yet we must still worry about spoiling things too specifically?

The common sense enters the equation by the necessity to interpret this apparent contradiction. Obviously, Seareach meant for users of this forum to be able to exercise a bit of caution by only entering threads which they deemed "safe." Users were intended to browse without worrying about the end (or other spoilers) being given away. Otherwise, there'd be no need to caution us against being specific in our thread titles. Seareach wrote: ". . . might spoil it for some readers who are subscribed to this forum but haven't finished the book." Given this clear rule, the last suggestion {"If you are concerned about coming across spoilers about Fatal Revenant I suggest you leave this forum until you have read the book"} must be interpreted as an admission that not everyone contributing here will heed the suggestions and use common sense. Like you.

No, you weren't the first to indicate that the swear words were clues, but you were the first to tell what those clues meant. In a thread which is only talking about the first 140 pages of the book, giving that particular spoiler was a complete lack of common sense. You had to know that Earthpower wouldn't have wanted the info you gave him, considering the fact that he claimed in his first post that he was only 140 pages into the book. No "suggestion" in the sticky gets you off the hook for that oversight.

But I do admit my own fault in assuming everyone was being careful, as the sticky suggested. And I admit I was taking my chances by coming here. I just assumed that everyone was using the same amount of care and common sense, since the rules of this forum explicitly include being sensitive to those who haven't finished FR yet.

Whether or not you feel bad about your lack of sensitivity, common sense, or tendency to read ALL of the rules of this forum--that's another issue. I know that I would feel bad if I spoiled the single most important detail of this book.

[Zarathustra]

Okay, I'm REALLY starting to enjoy this book. The entire sequence when Covenant and Jeremiah take Linden back in time, to when the Theomach reveals the Seven Words of Power, it was like the 1st and 2nd Chronicles again, like I was actually reading a continuation of that series. That same magic I was looking for was right there on the page. Berek is the first character of the Last Chronicles that lives up to the characters of the first 2. It's ironic that he is actually not "new," but an old character.

Anyway, my faith is restored that Donaldson still knows how to write this particular brand of fiction. I was starting to think he should just move on to science fiction permanently. But the power of this chapter alone has won me over.

Maybe what was missing wasn't the writing, or the characters, but the setting. It seems like as soon as Donaldson puts these characters into an authentic setting--one that includes "ordinary" men and women going about their lives, engaged in an ongoing purpose--that his writing shines all by itself. Up until now, the Land has seemed too distant, too sparsely populated. We've skirted about the edges of this world, from the Verge of Wondering, to Anele's cave, to back to Revelstone. We haven't actually traveled through the Land. We haven't really seen it's people. We've seen only glimpses and remnants. I don't count the Ramen because they no longer feel like they belong in the Land. They feel more like us--the readers--who have been checking the Internet for years looking for a sign that it was time to come back. And then there's the Waynhim and ur-viles remnants from a vanished time. Anele doesn't belong. The Mahdoubt is merely a mystery. Esmer is a walking paradox, a stranger to all lands. And the Masters are an unrecognizable pseudo-enemy. Liand is the only character we have to represent an actual, "ordinary" citizen of this vast country. The entire population of the Land stands in the shadows. We don't even see them. They're not even in the background.

Until now. Now we see lots of them. And suddenly the text leaps off the page. This can't be a coincidence. I feel like I'm back in the Land for the first time in 700 pages. It's about time.

[Seareach]

I have read the sticky. And I recognize my own precarious state in being here. However, you have to admit that the sticky rules are aren't as clear as you claim. They contain a contradiction which itself suggests using a bit of common sense.

The contradiction lies with the suggestion that we don't have to worry about spoiling anything (i.e. by not having to use spoiler tags), combined with the advice to not spoil things too terribly by having specific titles to threads. How can both rules be upheld at the same time? How can we not worry about spoiling things, and yet we must still worry about spoiling things too specifically?

The common sense enters the equation by the necessity to interpret this apparent contradiction. Obviously, Seareach meant for users of this forum to be able to exercise a bit of caution by only entering threads which they deemed "safe." Users were intended to browse without worrying about the end (or other spoilers) being given away. Otherwise, there'd be no need to caution us against being specific in our thread titles. Seareach wrote: ". . . might spoil it for some readers who are subscribed to this forum but haven't finished the book." Given this clear rule, the last suggestion {"If you are concerned about coming across spoilers about Fatal Revenant I suggest you leave this forum until you have read the book"} must be interpreted as an admission that not everyone contributing here will heed the suggestions and use common sense. Like you.

Malik: may I point out that that sticky has the words in bold If you are concerned about coming across spoilers about Fatal Revenant I suggest you leave this forum until you have read the book.

Speaking just for myself (so as not to drag dlb into this as I wrote the sticky): I apologize for the contradiction and if you think what I've written is misleading (or too open for interpretation), if you thought some threads would be "safe" and easily identifiable as such. You have said yourself:

And I recognize my own precarious state in being here

This is a forum for the *open* discussion of Fatal Revenant. We do not want every revelation spoilered. Following my own common sense, anything that reads "no spoilers" in the title is safe and everything else is not. I wanted people, like yourself, to be able to visit the forum and, if they wanted to to, do what you've done: start a thread discussing your thoughts as you read, making it clear you don't want details of the book beyond where you've read talked about. Not having thread titles which contains spoilers mean that you then wouldn't read information when coming to the forum to post in your own thread.

I'm not going to rehash the discussion regarding why this forum is hidden but that's about as far as we can go to prevent people coming across spoilers.

[Zarathustra]

No problem. That's why I didn't lodge a "formal complaint," or PM the admins, or anything like that. Yes, I think the sticky "rules" (or are they suggestions?) are open to interpretation. Apparently, my interpretation was too strict. In that case, I apologize Rocksister, and withdraw the little devil face.