Ongoing thoughts--FR Part 1

[Zarathustra]

Alright, from page 100 to 250 (or whenever part 1 ends), I couldn't put this thing down. What an exhilarating ride to the EarthBlood. Seamless tension all the way. The dynamic between the characters is interesting. The battles are great. And the writing is superb. I like the complex plot, and the reasons why Roger needed Linden.

My faith is definitely restored. I'm exhausted after that ride.

Although . . . this does seem a bit derivative. Yet another trip to the EarthBlood. Yet another "bad guy in disguise" (like Triock/raver). Yet another croyel. Donaldson already has so many new threats, monsters, and banes invented specifically for this series, why not use them instead?

The sporadic jumping between the leagues is a neat trick--both for the author and the characters. It certainly compresses the amount of time needed for them to travel. But of course this wouldn't be necessary if the Theomach hadn't taken them off course.

Why exactly did he do that? Why did he need to teach Berek? I suppose there's still several hundred pages in this book in which I might find the answer. So don't tell me if you already know!

The conversation with the Viles was trippy. I liked how she could see their speech.

There was so much magic. It's like then entire journey was wrapped and suffused in magic. I like a magical tale, but is Donaldson relying upon magic too much? Is it becoming a shortcut to storytelling, or is it that after 6 books of characters being frustratingly weak, he's finally letting them shine?

I have no idea how he's going to top some of these scenes in terms of sheer wonder and power. How is he going to raise the stakes? I'm not even finished with this one, and he's got two more that I assume will up the ante even more.

[Zarathustra]

On the theme of magic (too much? too little? just right?), I started thinking about how many characters are magical (i.e. they are full of magic personally, or possess magical tokens, or have lore): Linden, Jeremiah, Roger, TC, Anele, Esmer, Mahdoubt, Theomach, waynhim, ur-viles, viles, demondim, Caerroil Wildwood, Berek, Stave and the Haruchai (their mental speech) . . . am I missing anyone? The characters without magic are the weakest, least interesting characters in the book: Pahni, Bhapha, Liand, Marhtiir. It doesn't have to be that way. They aren't less interesting because they lack magic. They are less interesting because Donaldson hasn't paid as much attention to them. He is less interested in their stories. And I'm wondering if that is because he is more interested in the magical characters.

I suppose there was a lot of magic in the previous Chronicles, too, but it never really bothered me before. It didn't seem gratuitous. I do like the fact that Jeremiah has introduced his own form of magic. That was sorely needed. Magic thus far has leaned too heavily towards fire. White gold produces fire. The SoL produces fire. The Lords' lore produces fire. Roger (via Kastenessen's gift) produces fire. This is something that has bothered me throughout many different fantasy series, not just Donaldson's. Magic is potentially limitless. I don't know why it keeps coming back to fire.

Anyway, just throwing that out there to see what the rest of you think. Considering the fact that this book didn't really grab me until we saw ordinary "mundane" people--the soldiers and scouts of Berek's army--maybe this series doesn't have enough of the mundane to provide a contrast to the incredible magical powers being used. I mean, there was magic during that scene, with Linden healing everyone and Berek's own awakening Earthpower, but the magic was enhanced by this contrast, by this context of the mundane. In that context, it seemed "truly" magical--truly moving.

Just to be clear: I'm not complaining. I know I've had plenty of negative things to say about this book, but it is orders of magnitude better than Runes, and I'm not even halfway through. I'm just trying to pin down what works for me and what doesn't. Like Donaldson himself, I've been working on my own writing so long, it's impossible to just read a book and enjoy it. I must deconstruct it. Sorry if that's annoying.

[Borillar]

I know that SRD used the actual word "magic" far more in this book than he ever has before, which made me more consciously aware of the amount of it in the book. In the past, I can hardly remember its use, except for when Covenant eats the grass the Ranyhyn like (I'm not even going to attempt to spell the word for the grass) and it makes him delirious, and he thinks, "this is *magic*."

Another thing I noticed too was the overuse of the word "monsters". And not only was it overused, but it seemed somewhat inapropos when describing the Demondim. I can understand its use for the Skurj, but the Demondim aren't as mindless.

[dlbpharmd]

Agree with Borillar, prior to the Last Chronicles I never thought of magic when thinking about TCoTC. All we ever heard about was "lore" and "Earthpower."

[The na-Mhoram]

A rose by any other name....

This series has been chock full of magic sense the very beginning. Health sense. Hurtloam. Stone and Wood Lore. White Wild Magic Gold. ur-Vile lore. Kevin's Lore. Drool with the Staff of Law. The Illearth Stone. The Forestalls, the Collosus. The Earthblood. The Ranyhyn and their special kind of 'time travel.' The Bloodguard's Vow. The Sunbane, the Clave, and all their blood magic. The Elohim. Really it seems like the ONLY people in this whole series that don't use or rely on any kind of magic are the Ramen (and of course the stonedowners and woodhelvenin after the Haruchai's Mastery). I just think it's never been so 'in your face' as it's becoming, what with Linden wielding it so freely, where Covenant was always afraid to for some reason or another.

[Zarathustra]

I do like that the progression of characters accessing their magic throughout the entire series has been well played. He certainly withheld some fireworks for the end. The frustrating impotence of Covenant during the 1st Chronicles gave way to a paradoxically too powerful Covenant in the 2nd Chronicles (so powerful that he couldn't risk using his magic), and that trend has continued into the Last Chronicles with Linden having difficulty calling up the wild magic, or wielding both the ring and the staff simultaneously. So Donaldson has kept a lid on this pressure cooker, that's for sure.

So I guess I can't really fault him on how much he uses magic. I love magic. I just think it stands out better if the nonmagical characters were just as interesting.

[Prover of Life]

Magic thus far has leaned too heavily towards fire. White gold produces fire. The SoL produces fire. The Lords' lore produces fire. Roger (via Kastenessen's gift) produces fire. This is something that has bothered me throughout many different fantasy series, not just Donaldson's. Magic is potentially limitless. I don't know why it keeps coming back to fire.

Because fire is a purifier. It consumes and purges away all that can be destroyed. The fire of the SOL {ironically a name for our sun} burns away infection & consumes "wrongness", advocating healthy life.

Wild magic is graven in every rock & released by white gold. Rocks are permanence at rest. It destroys peace {non permanent} or harmony between eternal and temporary.

Don't forget that prior to leaving the "real world", Haven Farm was destroyed by fire. Roger's firestorm devoured the past, present, and future all at the same time, leaving nothing but memory behind. Is this not a "ceasure"?

In a sense, TLC embodies the scripture: what can be shaken, will be shaken untill that which cannot be shaken remains.

Fire is extremely important in these volumes. Interesting to see how it all ties together.

[Zarathustra]

Because fire is a purifier. It consumes and purges away all that can be destroyed. The fire of the SOL {ironically a name for our sun} burns away infection & consumes "wrongness", advocating healthy life.

Well, water is a purifier, too. It washes away dirt. It sustains plants and animals, advocating a healthy life. It doesn't have to be fire, if that's what you want to accomplish.

And the problem is that fire also represents the opposite of what you said: burning and destruction. The Illearth Stone produces corruptive green fire. So fire isn't particularly healing OR destructive. It's both, with this author. Rather than symbolizing either of these particular things exclusively, it symbolizes power generally. And it's up to the user to put that power to a good or evil use.

All I'm saying is that any kind of force could have represented power generally. Fire is a little overused in fantasy, in my opinion.

In a sense, TLC embodies the scripture: what can be shaken, will be shaken untill that which cannot be shaken remains.

No, I don't think the Last Chronicles embodies the scripture at all. Does this have something to do with fire?

In the end, this isn't really a big deal to me. I loved the first half of the book, and I'm having fun with the second half. It's just a pet peeve of mine that holds for the entire genre, not just Donaldson. Bakker's Prince of Nothing series was also disappointingly dependent upon fire as the sole embodiment of magic. Give me a flame thrower and I could be a magician in these worlds, too.

[emotional leper]

Malik. Fire is purification and destruction. Healing and harm. It's one of those paradox things.

[Xar]

On the theme of magic (too much? too little? just right?), I started thinking about how many characters are magical (i.e. they are full of magic personally, or possess magical tokens, or have lore): Linden, Jeremiah, Roger, TC, Anele, Esmer, Mahdoubt, Theomach, waynhim, ur-viles, viles, demondim, Caerroil Wildwood, Berek, Stave and the Haruchai (their mental speech) . . . am I missing anyone? The characters without magic are the weakest, least interesting characters in the book: Pahni, Bhapha, Liand, Marhtiir. It doesn't have to be that way. They aren't less interesting because they lack magic. They are less interesting because Donaldson hasn't paid as much attention to them. He is less interested in their stories. And I'm wondering if that is because he is more interested in the magical characters.

The "magic-less" characters - Liand, Marhtiir, Bhapa and Pahni - get more characterization as FR goes on... although perhaps in ways you won't foresee

[Zarathustra]

The "magic-less" characters - Liand, Marhtiir, Bhapa and Pahni - get more characterization as FR goes on... although perhaps in ways you won't foresee

Thanks for not spoiling! I look forward to their development. That's actually quite encouraging. But, again, Liand didn't "come into his own" until he found the orcrest. (I'm on page 360 now, so I've learned at least that much).

Also, I DID like the battle between Mahdoubt and Harrow. That was a very unique fight with an original take on magic. That's what I'm talking about! Thank you Donaldson!

Emotional Leper, water can be just as paradoxical. It gives life, but it can drown you. Really, everything is paradoxical if you think about it in the right context. The world is paradoxical. It doesn't take fire to point this out.

[iQuestor]

malik said

Give me a flame thrower and I could be a magician in these worlds, too.

that's too funny!

[Zarathustra]

Thanks, iQuestor. I think I'm funny. KiGirl thinks I'm hilarious. I'm glad at least one other appreciated my joke.

[variol son]

I'm going to post this here rather than start another new thread. Ill post more later, but one of my immediate reactions to the first part of Fatal Revenant, especially the sequences when Covenant, Linden and Jeremiah were alone, was that the three reminded me of Morn, Angus and Davies.

I'm not saying that they are like the characters from The Gap in and of themselves, but more in the way they interacted with each other - the lack of trust despite the desire to trust, the sarcasm and mockery, the odd mother/son relationship. It just struck me.

Whether that makes Stave, Liand, Anele and the Ramen like Mikka, Vector, Sib and Ciro, I'm not sure. I'll need to re-read before I post more.

[Zarathustra]

Interesting. There was certainly a dynamic within their relationship that has been missing in the LC. A twisted sort of "intimacy." It really is one of the most interesting things Donaldson has done with this series.

[andyjames]

one small observation from FR:

i wonder if it's coincidence or some dark humor on SRD's part, but Mahrtiir is spelled with 2 I's.

also, i think it may have been discussed elsewhere, but Mahrtiir's name reads to me as 'martyr' so i think there are a lot more things in store for him beyond what has happened so far.

[Fist and Faith]

also, i think it may have been discussed elsewhere, but Mahrtiir's name reads to me as 'martyr' so i think there are a lot more things in store for him beyond what has happened so far.

... I hadn't noticed that. You're probably right.

Ah well, he'd like a good, exciting death anyway. But then, Jean told Billy Jack: "It's so easy for you to die dramatically! It's a hell of a lot tougher for those of us who have to keep on trying!"

[variol son]

Having finished a few hours ago, I've decided that what I like about Fatal Revenant is the seeming complexity of the issues Linden and her friends are facing.

It's not as simple as Covenant and friends versus the Despiser and the Ravers, and even though the Second Chronicles had the Elohim and the croyel, their motivations and allegiances are much less obvious this time around.

Continuing along with the idea of the books similarities to The Gap, I'm reminded of a portion of a review at the front of my copy of This Day All Gods Die.

And no one knows what anyone else knows, or is bondage to, or committed to accomplish, or on whose behalf any of the betrayals and reversals have been prepared...

I can't wait for Against All Things Ending, if only so I can figure out what Roger meant when he told Linden that Kevin didn't fail Elena, she failed him.

[Seareach]

I can't wait for Against All Things Ending, if only so I can figure out what Roger meant when he told Linden that Kevin didn't fail Elena, she failed him.

Yeah! Someone explain that to me because I don't understand that either!

[variol son]

Maybe it's just more mockery. Roger wasn't a particularly nice person.

I actually feel really sorry for Elena. It's not her fault she was so screwed up, and other people made monumental stuff-ups, yet in death she seems to be suffering more than even Kevin.

PS - Nice to see you Sea.