The Vizard

[High Lord Tolkien]

I remember reading on a different thread (forgive me I can't remember or find it) that the Vizard is dead?

Is that is true and where did it say that?
I missed it.
He was alive enough to try to get Jerry to make that construct.
And how was that even possible since he's with Foul?

[Ur Dead]

I think the Vizard isn't dead. He may be old, but not dead.

Foul has Linden's son. But the croyel may be the one controlling Jerry . Jerry may be aware of the possesion and this may be the torment that many believes he is in.

The croyel may have knowledge of Jermiah memories.( maybe not the deep ones) but enough to pass off as Linden's son. This may be one of the powers of the croyel, and it may have been the croyel that the Vizard was dealing with.

[Cameraman Jenn]

I don't think the Vizard is dead.

[Variol Farseer]

I'm pretty sure the Vizard is dead, though I can't find chapter and page at the moment. But remember that Jeremiah's mind has been in the Land much longer than his body, at least from time to time. (And if his 'mind' is just a cheat manufactured by the croyel, that's even more true.)

Jeremiah's first contact with the Land was, after all, at the beginning of TWL. In theory, his mind could have encountered the Vizard at almost any time in the 3,500 years between the Second and Last Chronicles. That leaves plenty of time for the Vizard to die.

[Mortice Root]

And before she died, the Mahdoubt spoke of the Vizard as if he were dead (at least IMO, that's what she said). Of course, with time travel and the laws of death and life being broken, that doesn't mean we won't come across the Vizard...

[Damelon]

The Mahdoubt spoke of a conflict between the Vizard and the Harrow which the Harrow won. Something about the Vizard believing that the Harrow's inner vision conflicted with his own.

[Ur Dead]

I have a problem with the Mahdoubt. It is a fact she gave up her life in FR, I can't argue that. It's that the Insequents live to be very old. That is the case of the Mahdoubt. It even states in Runes that she was old. But the Mahdoubt was a time traveler.

So in her long life, the Mahdoubt learned and controlled her path where she traveled, what she did and learned and did she return to a time where she knew she would make the best impact for her designs. Maybe she visited a time where all is well and her last and final duty was to set in motion what she preceives to be a end that satifies her desires.
We may see that she pops up in the last two books in younger forms.

But how old does an Insequent get?
5,10,50 , 200 thousand years? A million? The Giants live to be what? A few hundred years. Sunder and Hollian lived several lifetimes because of the gift of Earthpower. What about Kevin? How old was he when he and Foul did the ritual together? A Thousand years?? Because of the Vow, Many of the Bloodguard lived over two thousand years. So it is relative.

So if we used our dog years to human method in appling Linden real age to equivelent Lands age.
Linden is now about 40. That equates to 14,000 Land years. That make Linden one old lady in comparision.

What we don't know now is how long the Insequents live.

[Matthias]

I just finished the chapter where the Mahdoubt died and when Stave had told the story about his people, so I felt as if there was no problem entering this thread.

the Mahdoubt says this:

Some centuries past, the Vizard sought to thwart the Harrow's desires, for he deemed them contrary to his own purpose. Thus was the Vizard lost to use and name and life. The outcome of what the Mahdoubt has done will not be othewise.

-(pg. 359, para. 4, Fatal Revenant)

Sounds pretty straightforward to me. But I agree, Ur Dead, we don't know how long the Insequent live, but the Mahdoubt kept saying that she was old, old, old. I can accept the fact that she's lived longer than any normal person until the average life-span is placed in front of me in numbers. After all, the Theomach was pretty old. He lived with Berek up through the 2nd Chrons didn't he? (it's been a while since I've read the 2nd Chrons correct me if I'm wrong)

[Cameraman Jenn]

Having read that quote I have to retract my earlier statement. The Vizard is dead.

[Ur Dead]

Having read that quote I have to retract my earlier statement. The Vizard is dead.

Reading that I too must agree..

[Mortice Root]

Thanks for backing me up, yourownshadow.

[Matthias]

Thanks for backing me up, yourownshadow.

No problem. Happened to have the book opened a few chapters down at the time.

[native]

ISome centuries past, the Vizard sought to thwart the Harrow's desires, for he deemed them contrary to his own purpose. Thus was the Vizard lost to use and name and life. The outcome of what the Mahdoubt has done will not be othewise.

That could just about be interpreted that the Vizard fell into madness but was still alive in some form.

[Xar]

Sounds pretty straightforward to me. But I agree, Ur Dead, we don't know how long the Insequent live, but the Mahdoubt kept saying that she was old, old, old. I can accept the fact that she's lived longer than any normal person until the average life-span is placed in front of me in numbers. After all, the Theomach was pretty old. He lived with Berek up through the 2nd Chrons didn't he? (it's been a while since I've read the 2nd Chrons correct me if I'm wrong)

True, but the Theomach didn't live up to the 2nd Chronicles because of the Insequent lifespan. When Stave tells Linden the tale of the Haruchai's first encounter with the Insequent (the Vizard), he relates the tale the Vizard told about the Theomach: that he went questing for the One Tree on Berek's behalf, and he defeated the Elohim who guarded the Tree, taking its place. That the Vizard thought the Theomach therefore deserved the Haruchai title of ak-Haru, that even telling the Theomach's true name to Stave's people was allright since the Theomach had transcended it, and that by virtue of his new position as the Guardian of the One Tree, he no longer heeded death.

This implies that the Insequent, while long-lived, do not necessarily have 7,000-year-long lifespans; the Theomach was an exception, as the Guardian of the One Tree, probably having taken on characteristics of the Elohim he defeated.

[Matthias]

ISome centuries past, the Vizard sought to thwart the Harrow's desires, for he deemed them contrary to his own purpose. Thus was the Vizard lost to use and name and life. The outcome of what the Mahdoubt has done will not be othewise.

That could just about be interpreted that the Vizard fell into madness but was still alive in some form.

How? "...lost to use and name and life." ... "the outcome of what the Mahdoubt has done will not be otherwise." ...

the Mahdoubt went mad and died and, according to her, so did the Vizard. I don't see how you can have multiple interpretations of a straightforward declaration by the Mahdoubt herself. Unless of course you claim that the Mahdoubt herself didn't die, but merely disappeared to another time. After that, I can't tell. At least it is apparent that Linden and her friends believes the Mahdoubt died, that's what SRD gives us so far.

[wayfriend]

I'm not so sure.

"Because of his despair, we were compelled to bind him to his place, reaving him of name and choice and time to set him as a keystone for the threatened foundation of the north. Thus was the fire capped, and the Earth preserved, and Kastenessen lost."

Doesn't that sound oddly familiar? Kastennessen, it was said, was also "lost", to "name and choice and time". But he came back. He is mad, but he came back.

Does anyone doubt that the similarity in word choice is significant here?

I believe that the Vizard fell into madness, as the Mahdoubt did. But, since I'd like to believe that the Mahdoubt didn't die, I guess I have to believe that the Vizard might not have, either. They could come back. Mad, but back.

What assertions does the Harrow or the Mahdoubt make that after madness comes death?

[emotional leper]

It's never stated that the madness is immediately followed by Death. Doesn't the Harrow taunt the Mahdoubt about her having time to "enjoy" her madness before she dies?

[Matthias]

"name and choice and time" doesn't sound like "use and name and life." Similar but not the same. I don't think Kastenessen was lost to "life" as the Mahdoubt's or the Vizard's fate is to inevitably die.

Besides, how mad is Kastenessen in comparison to how mad the Mahdoubt is? There's obviously a difference between minor incoherence and utter madness. I mean, Kastenessen can at least command forces, right?

And It's been a while since the Vizard allegedly went mad. How long does it take for the Insequent to die after they've betrayed one of their own? I think the Vizard is dead because of the finality of the Mahdoubt's statement.

[Revan]

A quick point, but i believe that the Vizard is indeed dead; however he was mentioned too many times to become of no significance. So i believe his importance lies in the way he died. The Harrows involvement in the Vizard's death, the mentions of their desires the reason being the cause of their conflict, was made to oblique to be of no importance. What are or were the Harrow's desires that should bring out the Vizard's death out as an outcome? How and why did the Vizard's desires (aside from the dispensing of the elohim) conflict with the Harrow? I think we'll learn the importance of these questions in the next two books.

[Aleksandr]

Re: This implies that the Insequent, while long-lived, do not necessarily have 7,000-year-long lifespans; the Theomach was an exception, as the Guardian of the One Tree, probably having taken on characteristics of the Elohim he defeated.

The Vizard lived from pre-Bloodguard times to post-Sunbane times (when Jeremiah could have encountered him). That's a pretty big chucnk of time.