The Vizard

[Ur Dead]

But the Vizard was lost to mind and life because he challenged the Harrow. He may have been young.

Reason I speculate that the Insequents live very long lives. (maybe 10 to 20 thosand years) is because of the Mahdoubt.

She may have known the Theomach. She knew the Vizard and the Harrow.
Our only known facts are.
The Theomach was around 10000 years before FR.
The Vizard was around close to the same time.
Harrow.. don't know how far back he goes and when his battle against the Vizard was.
If the Mahdoubt knew the Theomach then she is at least 10K years old and she wasn't elderly as people preceive. If she met him thru normal means.

She said she couldn't do hard work at her age but could do work. I would equate her age to be in the 50's and the gal had some life left in her. But you have to remember her special ability. She could time travel or move along the AoT. Did she meet and interact with the Theomach and Vizard on her travels or did she meet them while in a normal time progression. And there lies the quandry.

[I'm Murrin]

It seemed that the Theomach was mentioned by the others less as one known personally by them than as one who was legendary among their race (the Vizard may have known him; I don't think the others did). The only time we can be sure the Theomach was around was less than 1000 years between meeting Berek and becoming the Guardian. The Mahdoubt was very old for one of her race, but we have no idea how old that is. Her comments about the Vizard's behaviour to the Haruchai suggest some closer familiarity than she had with the Theomach. The Vizard we know existed 8 to 9000 years before the Third Chrons, and he may have been around as late as 1000 years ago, but that's not certain.
The way that the Mahdoubt and the Harrow interact suggests that he is of a younger generation of Insequent.

However, one fact that needs to be taken into acount with this is that they are Insequent. The name itself implies that their relationship with Time is not as straightforward as a constant linear progression.

[Matthias]

It seemed that the Theomach was mentioned by the others less as one known personally by them than as one who was legendary among their race (the Vizard may have known him; I don't think the others did). The only time we can be sure the Theomach was around was less than 1000 years between meeting Berek and becoming the Guardian. The Mahdoubt was very old for one of her race, but we have no idea how old that is. Her comments about the Vizard's behaviour to the Haruchai suggest some closer familiarity than she had with the Theomach. The Vizard we know existed 8 to 9000 years before the Third Chrons, and he may have been around as late as 1000 years ago, but that's not certain.
The way that the Mahdoubt and the Harrow interact suggests that he is of a younger generation of Insequent.

However, one fact that needs to be taken into acount with this is that they are Insequent. The name itself implies that their relationship with Time is not as straightforward as a constant linear progression.

Well, I though the Mahdoubt was the only Insequent (that we knew of) having a more "time-traveling" relationship with Time. She did, of course, threaten the Harrow to put him in another time that he could not get himself out. Is it because only the Harrow could not "time travel" or is it because only the Mahdoubt can?

[dlbpharmd]

It was because the Harrow could not time travel.

[Aleksandr]

Re: The only time we can be sure the Theomach was around was less than 1000 years between meeting Berek and becoming the Guardian.

Are we assuming that someone else could have become the Guardian that Berinn defeated? From Berek's era to the events of The One Tree it's about 5-6 millennia.

[I'm Murrin]

I'm assuming that in becoming the Guardian the Theomach could have been changed in unknowable ways that make him, from that point onwards, an unreliable subject by which to judge the normal lifespan of Insequent.

[Beyondthebreach]

Some centuries past, the Vizard sought to thwart the Harrow's desires, for he deemed them contrary to his own purpose. Thus was the Vizard lost to use and name and life.

I've been thinking a lot about the Vizard and his role. While I agree that he is seemingly "dead", I think that in some form his exists . . . in madness. Even Donaldson's words are formed in riddles . . . "lost to use and name and life." That is a long roundabout way to say something. How about: "Was destroyed" or "is dead".

No, Donaldson is weaving a bit of subtle trickery with this.

He is lost to Use: He no longer has his "purpose" or "knowledge" (as all Insequent seem to).

He is lost to Name: His true name is of no importance - it can not compel him. Conversely it also marks his loss of identity.

He is lost to Life: Well, sure, this may seem to indicate he has died - it still doesn't actually say it - It can be taken to mean that he has lost his corporeal life. There is some indication that an Insequent will continue on in madness based on the Harrow's comments to the Mahdoubt. Also, the Mahdoubt's form seemed to waver and disappear . . .

Is there some essence of an Insequent that goes on - lost to name and form and purpose and left only as an insane remant of consciousness?


But that is just part of the Vizard's mystery. The really big mystery is why would he oppose the Harrow and choose this path. We can see why the Mahdoubt did . . . it is through compassion, love and kindness that she chose her fate and saved Linden (and probably much more than Linden assuming Linden might help save the Land).

But the Vizard? Well, I guess it is possible that he didn't know what would happen to him . . . but that is a weak argument and not very likely. Therefore, he opposed the Harrow because he was willing to give up his existence to thwart the Harrow's aims. And, it seems that what the Vizard most wants is to imprison the Elohim. He hates them - he tried to gain Jeremiah's aid in imprisoning them . . . I believe that his self chosen purpose is to destroy/contain the Elohim.

The Harrow's seems interested in acquiring objects of power - at least the Staff of Law and White Gold. Maybe other objects as well . . . so, I think that at some time in the past the Vizard opposed the Harrow in order to save Jeremiah whom he thought was the only real chance to imprison all the Elohim. As time flows differently in the Land than on our "earth" , a couple of centuries past might be a time when Jeremiah and/or Joan had some connection to the land.

If not this, than at least he opposed the Harrow as his goals would ultimately lead to the benefit of the Elohim or somehow thwart any efforts to end/contain their existence.

The Vizard then chooses his fate . . . but, like the Mahdoubt, he is unlikely to have done it in vain. He is "lost', yet he succeeds as stopping the Harrow from accomplishing his aim.

And he pays the price . . .



Hmm . . . What could an insane, formless being possessed of hatred do? Perhaps, maybe, it could possess someone or something? Maybe someone like Longwrath? After all, the Haruchai "deemed" he was possessed of supernal swiftness . . . but it seemed to me that he just stood in place and defeated them all in the same instant. Almost like he was tranlating through space. Maybe not a time traveller like the Mahdoubt, but a space/dimensional traveller. That would be quite a useful bit of residual knowledge to have when attempting to free oneself of manacles.

It is also the opposite of the weakness possessed of his hated enemies - he can elude space and structure - the Elohim are bound by them. A likely course for an Insequent to pursue if he sought to defeat the Elohim.

[shadowbinding shoe]

As I understand it Insequent (and Elohim) can survive going against their customs, their wurd. Kestenessen is an example of such. But to achieve this they have to give up everything that marks them as one of their race (the 3 things). I think Findail and the Theomach talk about this route. It's similar I think to a human making a pact with a croyel.

I don't think the Vizard went that route. The way the Madoubt described the incidence he wasn't an exemplary Insequent but even he became by appalled by the Harrow's purpose and sacrificed himself in order to prevent it. We must assume the Harrow is now on his 3rd set of agendas. The Vizard took his first and worst, than the Madoubt took his second (to rob the staff of law and white gold ring) and now he's merely promoting deals with the devil to get power for himself.

I think his age can safely be placed at under 3,500 years. His dedication to the study of the Viles' spawn makes me think he was impressed and envious at the creation of the new staff of law and wanted to posses that power for himself.

[Nerdanel]

I think there's a good chance that the Vizard is actually alive and sane. He has had too much exposition to just vanish from the story, and he was presented to be more on the evil side, which would make self-sacrifice unlikely. I also got the impression that the Vizard would have been too smart to get himself insane by accident. Therefore, I think he may have staged his own demise, perhaps by pretending to be mad in public, so that no one would get in the way of his true purposes or suspect his influence on events.

Or maybe the Vizard is an undercover Lord Foul. Hey, this forum needs more unlikely speculation! I haven't read through it all yet, but it looks to me that my absence has made things altogether too unimaginative and realistic.

[dlbpharmd]

It's good to see you back, Nerdanel!

[Matthias]

Or just maybe the Vizard's dead. If I'm wrong, then I'll be--yes--pleasantly surprised to see the subject of such debate return to life against my wildest expectations.

Hurray for Deus ex Machina!

[wayfriend]

I think the Vizard is dead. The Vizard seems to be a catchall Insequent about whom many things are attributed rather than invent a new Insequent for each one. So he's the Insequent who met the Harchai, he's the Insequent who wanted to use Jeremiah, he's the Insequent defeated by the Harrow, all in an amazing coincidence. In that light, I'm sure he's dead, because he isn't that important, and his purpose seems to have been merely to underscore by example what happens to Insequent who cross each other.

[Matthias]

My sentiments exactly.

[Relayer]

Essentially, yes. SRD "only invents what he needs" and the Vizard fits well for all those story elements, and shows us a whole range of characteristics which we can now attribute to the Insequent as a whole.

Of course, SRD loves to mess with our preconceptions... who knows what he'll do?

[High Lord Tolkien]

I'm still looking for when the Vizard was first mentioned. Where did we learn about his conflict with the Harrow and his trying to take Jeremiah?
What page or at least chapter?
(yes, I did look before asking. )

[wayfriend]

Jeremiah first mentions the Vizard in Taking the Risk, Fatal Revenant, as someone he met while he was mentally visiting the Land. The Vizard wanted Jeremiah to build a trap for the Elohim.

The Vizard is next mentioned when Linden brings him up with the Theomach (same chapter). She wants to know what's up with him. The Theomach says he doesn't know, but if it's anything to do with Elohim, it would not be petty or spiteful, but moved by "larger concerns".

Later, in Melenkurion Skyweir, Covenant tells Linden about Jeremiah's power, and how the Vizard knew what he was talking about.

In From the Depths, Linden asks the Mahdoubt about the Vizard. She knows of them, but won't say anything at that time (which is in the past). But she does admit that Jeremiah's powers are very significant, which is why the Vizard was so interested.

Next, at the Insequent Fight, (Old Conflicts) we learn that the Vizard once crossed the Harrow, and lost big.

In the same chapter, the Mahdoubt gifts Linden with the tale of the Vizard vs. the Haruchai. He could move so fast no one could defeat him. The Haruchai wanted to honor him, but he demured, and told them that the Theomach was his better. And he revealed to them the Theomach's true name.

[kevinswatch]

Am I the only one who thought that "The Vizard" was a very, very silly name?

-jay

[High Lord Tolkien]

Thank you!
I've been rereading FR the past few weeks, skipping around to some of my favorite parts.
Linden's meeting Berek was really really good, imo.
I just wish it was the real Covenant, that meeting would have been very enjoyable. Roger ruined it.
I'm about to start from the beginning again with Runes.
I'm going to pay more attention to Anele this time though.
Hollian pretty much tells us that no matter what Linden does it's all up to him to save the Land maybe the Earth.
I like that.
Oh and good lord, after some minor casual browsing I have so much more THOOLAH material!

[High Lord Tolkien]

Am I the only one who thought that "The Vizard" was a very, very silly name?

-jay

I did initially but then got used to it.

[Auleliel]

Am I the only one who thought that "The Vizard" was a very, very silly name?

-jay

I did initially but then got used to it.

I still think that it's a very silly name.