Durances and Appointed

[earthbrah]

Assuredly, FR revealed much about this universe of SRD's. I'd like to take some time and focus on the Elohim and their Appointings and Durances.

What do we know now?

1. According to FR, the Elohim that was bound in the Collosus was done so by the trees. What?!? The consciousness of the One Forest was capable of binding an Elohim for its own self-protection? (Am I totally misremembering this? Was my first read-through that cursory? Can someone help me with this one?)

2. We now know that the first Guradian of the One Tree was an Elohim. He/She/It was defeated by the Theomach, who was in turn defeated by Brinn. And since Brinn was not among the Dead in Andelain, we can assume that he is still with the One Tree guarding it.

3. Of course, we know about Findail. He was appointed to prevent Vain from fulfilling his purpose. But now we've also been told that the Elohim are susceptible to certain structures, that they are undeniably attracted to them. This is why they fear Jeremiah's power so much, for what the Vizard supposedly was trying to get him to do, namely build a door for the Elohim to enter and never leave again. A Durance if I've ever heard of one!

And the ur-viles have made manacles. TC/Roger states that these are for him, but are they? Are they maybe for the Elohim instead since they seem to be magnetically drawn to certain structures? A mass Durance for the whole race?

4. And then there's Kastenessen. This one's sticky, and even though we know a great deal more about it now, we most assuredly do not know the whole story yet. Allegedly, the Elohim appointed him to hold back the fires from the north of the Land, the skurj (whatever they really are, or however they really came into being). However, he seems to have been forcibly placed in his Durance as a punishment for imparting some of his power onto a mortal woman that he loved.

She is the inception of the merewives, one of which is the mother of Esmer. And Esmer aided his grandfather, Kastenessen, cto reate Kevin's Dirt.

We've been told how Kastenessen managed to free himself from his Durance, but we don't know for sure the whole story on that yet. He merged himself with these creatures, the skurj, but who gave him the idea? It was hinted at that Lord Foul whispered this counsel to him, and waited for Kastenessen to free himself in this manner. But what if this idea was mentioned to him by one of the Insequent? We don't know...or do we?


Anyone care to chime in and help us out with some of this? Have I left things out that are significant--(oh, most assuredly! ). Help me fill in the blanks...

[DoctorWaterGod]

I need another re-read, but my memory from the other chronicles was that the Elohim appointed one of their own to become the Colossus of the Fall to stop the Ravers from reaching the upper Land.

The relationship between the Elohim and the Insequent is a new twist. For me, it gives the Elohim a less "lofty" appearance.

[QuantumMechanic]

Not quite. An Elohim was Appointed to help the One Forest resist the Ravers. However, the Forest took what it learned from the Appointed and (presumably against her will) bound her into the Colossus.

[aliantha]

Good summary, Earthbrah. Especially good point that Kastenessen didn't get picked to hold back the skurj by, y'know, drawing lots. Makes you wonder, doesn't it, what Findail did to make the Elohim "sentence" him to becoming half of the new Staff?

[dlbpharmd]

Not quite. An Elohim was Appointed to help the One Forest resist the Ravers. However, the Forest took what it learned from the Appointed and (presumably against her will) bound her into the Colossus.

This is what I remember. The One Forest created a structure that she couldn't resist.

[wayfriend]

According to the GI, the Elohim who became the Colossus was not even Appointed.

First, the Elohim who was bound into the Colossus wasn't Appointed: her binding was the will of the forest(s), not of her people.

We don't know that the original Elohim guardian of the One Tree was Appointed. Donaldson does not say so, does he? We don't want to make the same mistake, assume an Appointment, right?

As for Brinn, my impression is that he "became" ak-Haru in some way.

"I am who I am," he said evenly. "Ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol. The Guardian of the One Tree. Brinn of the Haruchai. And many other names. Thus am I renewed from age to age, until the end."

Where there were two beings, Brinn and ak-Haru, there are now only one, a being who is both.

Could not the Elohim who was originally guarding the One Tree have been merged into this being in the same way? The evidence seems to suggest that this would be so.

This would then be a being which is part Haruchai and part Elohim (sound familiar?) as well as part Insequent. Is this a Good Thing? Could this be the "havoc" which Esmer continually speaks of? It fits the bill. Esmer continually speaks of this havoc as having been caused by Haruchai and Elohim, but he also continually speaks as if it is not himself that is the havoc. And -- Halfhand! SRD has been misleading us all along with multiple candidates for the same descriptions, starting with "her son".

I like the idea that the manacles are for Kastenessen. He is not only an Elohim, he is insane; he needs locking up, as he (probably) cannot be destroyed. Vain proves that the ur-viles can make structures that can contain Elohim.

[CT]

I like the idea that the manacles are for Kastenessen. He is not only an Elohim, he is insane; he needs locking up, as he (probably) cannot be destroyed. Vain proves that the ur-viles can make structures that can contain Elohim.

Ah, but he's missing a hand! Tough for the manacles to stay on, eh?

[dlbpharmd]

What if the manacles are living beings?

[CT]

What if the manacles are living beings?

Sort of like Vain? Maybe Vain was the original manacle (the "Vainacle" if you will), and he certainly bound an elohim. Since Kast. has given Roger a piece of himself, maybe both Kast. and Roger can be Vainacled like Findail was.

[Seppi2112]

No, we already saw the manacles in the first part of FR as Roger & The Croyel (sounds like a bad sitcom) sent Linden back with them.

The manacles are for Roger - he admits it himself, though he obfuscates it by pretending to be TC.

[Aleksandr]

Re: According to the GI, the Elohim who became the Colossus was not even Appointed.

That's not what Findail said in TOT. When he started to explain about the Appointed, he used the Elohim of the Colossus as an example, nothing that Elohim were younger in those days, and more willing to take on burdens that were less vital to their own existence.

[earthbrah]

So,

1. Whether or not the Elohim who was bound in the Colossus was Appointed or not, it seems that she was placed there by the Forest. Nice point dlb about the One Forest creating a structure that this Elohim could not resist. I seem to remember the same thing now that you mention it. I'll seek to find the text for corroboration when I have time.

2. The Guardian of the One Tree: Wayfriend, you make some excellent points on this one. You're right, it's never said that this Elohim was ever Appointed. (Or is it? Must seek confirmation from the text...) And I like the take on Brinn becoming a convergence of two distinct beings, ak Haru and Brinn. However, I don't know about him being part Elohim just because he "defeated" the Guardian. From what we've been told, the Guardian that he "defeated" was the Theomach, not the Elohim. Which makes me wonder: Where is this Elohim these days, the one that the Theomach defeated? And what significance does it have that Brinn only became the ak Haru by surrendering during his battle with the Theomach? Was the Theomach trying to teach the Haruchai a lesson? Is Brinn less than the real ak Haru because the Theomach just let him win? What does the Theomach have to say about all this?

3. I think we can assume that Findail's Appointment is pretty clear. He was actually held onto by Vain at the end of WGW, something which was not supposed to be possible (he's pure fluidity remember). Was that due to the nature of Vain's pure structure?

4. As for the manacles, I do seem to remember seeing them in that scene where TC/Roger and Jeremiah transport Linden to the past. Roger does say that they were created for him, but like Seppi indicates, that is obfuscated. It could mean the actual TC, though I think that is unlikely. It could mean Kastenessen, seeing as Roger is now part Kastenessen. It that's so, it could also extend farther to other Elohim. Or does Kastenessen's merging with the skurj preclude him from being truly Elohim? Did his purity as an Elohim become tainted when he did that? I'd say so...

Aaaahhhh, need to reread...

[dlbpharmd]

I think the Elohim WAS Appointed to help the Forest, but was then bound into the Colossus. Maybe she was like Findail - she was Appointed to help the Forest, and intended for the Forest to use her knowledge in a certain way, and if she was unsuccessful in that effort, then she would have to meet her doom (binding into the Colossus.)

[Fist and Faith]

"But a hate rose against the forest, seeking its destruction. And this was dire, for a tree may know love and feel pain and cry out, but has few means of defense. The knowledge was lacking. Therefore we met, and from among us Appointed one to give her life to that forest. This she did by merging among the trees until they gained the knowledge they required.

"Their knowledge they employed to bind her in stone, exercising her name and being to form an interdict against that hate. Thus was she lost to herself and to her people - but the interdict remained while the will of the forest remained to hold it."

[High Lord Tolkien]

So.......Findail and the Elohim that became the Colossus were *contained* against their will due to the use of some kind of construct?

Oh yeah, that explains the Elohim fear and unwillingness to help Jeremiah!

[Ur Dead]

dlbpharmd has some real nice points. But I differ when it come to the Colossus. The female Elohim taught the one forest to create the Forrestals and become more aware. (the appointment) But the One Forrest in it's new found might, was able to bound the Elohim to the Colossus. Thus that one was lost to self.

Kastenessen and Findail were appointed by their race as a punishment for some deed. (We know Kastenessen deed but what did Findail do?)
Findail lost his chance to gain the White Gold from Covenant and thus was his doom and self lost to the Wurd.

When manacles were mentioned by Esmer's meeting with Linden, at that time all I could equate it to was the jheherrin to sur-jheherrin.

That manacles could be the final stage of what the Viles truely desired.
Viles -> Demondin -> Ur-Viles -> Manacles. ( a race that is borned, not created, and subject to the Law of the Land)

Foul created the jheherrin, so the metamorphous a to race subjected to Law was shorter. The Viles (a mystical non-corpreal race origins haven't been established) may take stages to develop.

[Xar]

2. The Guardian of the One Tree: Wayfriend, you make some excellent points on this one. You're right, it's never said that this Elohim was ever Appointed. (Or is it? Must seek confirmation from the text...) And I like the take on Brinn becoming a convergence of two distinct beings, ak Haru and Brinn. However, I don't know about him being part Elohim just because he "defeated" the Guardian. From what we've been told, the Guardian that he "defeated" was the Theomach, not the Elohim. Which makes me wonder: Where is this Elohim these days, the one that the Theomach defeated? And what significance does it have that Brinn only became the ak Haru by surrendering during his battle with the Theomach? Was the Theomach trying to teach the Haruchai a lesson? Is Brinn less than the real ak Haru because the Theomach just let him win? What does the Theomach have to say about all this?

We have oblique evidence that the Elohim who originally guarded the One Tree when the Theomach challenged him was either absorbed, merged, or drained of his powers by the Theomach. The Insequent are not immortal, and their lifespan, however long, is not long enough for a "simple" Insequent to survive from Berek's time to the time of the Second Chronicles. However, the Theomach effectively became immortal - i.e. he did not die of natural causes, despite the many thousands of years that passed since his defeat of the Elohim. The Vizard also tells the Haruchai that the Theomach "no longer heeds death" after defeating the Guardian, which also hints at a change. Furthermore, the Vizard is not afraid to reveal the Theomach's true name, Kenaustin Ardenol, to the Haruchai, saying that the Theomach can no longer be bound by it. This suggests a fundamental change of the Theomach's essence and powers, since we know that an Insequent's true name can bind them (as shown by the Mahdoubt and Linden's discussion outside Revelstone).

Coupling these clues with what we learned in the Second Chronicles, I believe it's safe to say that the Elohim who was defeated granted immortality and other powers upon the Theomach, making him an altogether unique being - no longer merely an Insequent, not a full Elohim. Possibly it even gave the Theomach its memories, or at least its perspective. The same thing happened when Brinn eventually defeated the Theomach: the "mantle" of the Guardian (the power of the Elohim, as well - presumably - as the power of the Theomach) passed on to him, and his mind received the memories and perspective of the previous Guardians, making him more than just Brinn of the Haruchai. This fits with the fact he wasn't among the Dead: if he received the immortality of the Guardian (which the Theomach received when he defeated the Elohim, apparently) then it stands to reason that he's still alive. It also stands to reason that he acquired other powers as well - maybe even the Theomach's ability over time?

I would not at all be surprised to see Brinn make an appearance before the end - maybe even being instrumental to the "fall" of the Masters, since he is one of the main causes of their Mastery in the first place...

[wayfriend]

I think the Elohim WAS Appointed to help the Forest, but was then bound into the Colossus. Maybe she was like Findail - she was Appointed to help the Forest, and intended for the Forest to use her knowledge in a certain way, and if she was unsuccessful in that effort, then she would have to meet her doom (binding into the Colossus.)

I'd agree to that. But I don't think that the Elohim planned on the forest taking that action - they may have approved of it, since she was Appointed, and that means she has to do whatever needs to be done. But I don't think that they placed her there knowing what would happen.

The same may have been true for Kastenessen and Findail. Appointment means, whatever happens, you will be the one it falls on. (Hence, it is a doom.) Appointment doesn't mandate that a certain transformation must happen. Just that, IF it happens, it'll be on the Appointed.

In the case of Kastenessen, the Elohim surveyed the situation after the Appointment and decided the outcome themselves. In Findail's case, they knew about Vain, but Findail was free to find another outcome. In the case of the Colossus, the forest chose its own course. These represent varying degrees of freedom and circumstance for the Appointed.

[dlbpharmd]

Agree - said better than I could have!

One thing that seems consistent from SRD is this new aspect about the Elohim and their attraction to constructs. Consider the Giants - they received the gift of tongues after telling the story of Bahgoon the Unbearable to the Elohim, and thousands of years later Honninscrave and his companions received the goodwill of the Elohim after teaching a simple sailor's knot. Doesn't it seem that a story is just a construct of words, and a knot is just a construct of rope?

[mortem]

In regard to the Guardian of the One Tree and his nature (combination of Elohim+Insequent+Haruchai), I have a feeling that we may see him end up as a super-being that's involved in the final imprisonment or release of Foul. That is, after he is defeated by Linden and/or TC (which results in a being even more powerful since each defeat adds to the power of the Guardian).