Was Linden's desire/love/longing for TC poorly written?

[High Lord Tolkien]

Was Linden's desire/love/longing for TC poorly written?

Their expression of each other's love on the Giant Ship in the One Tree was clear and perfect.
I got that without a doubt.
Was it just assumed by readers of the last Chronicles that Linden really LOVED and MISSED Thomas Covenant in FR?
I even did a second read through to make sure before I asked this.

TC's resurrection was without a doubt the most spectacular event and according to the Elohim pretty much the end of the world (at least the end of the Elohim).
But the reason behind it was........passionless.
It should have been SO MUCH MORE.
I mean there were some mentions of her missing TC and some of her longing for him throughout the 3rd series but I think *I* gave it more emotional regard than Linden did.

Her need for TC to pull a rabbit out of a hat and tell her how to save Jeremiah was clear.
But the fact that she dearly loved and missed TC just wasn't there in my opinion.
Or rather, not enough.
It was written more like she was solving a puzzle than getting back the man that she loved.

Anyone else get this impression?

(And yes, right now I'm giving Linden the benefit of the THOOLAH doubt.)

[lurch]

Well..okay, you are surfacing that " misdirection" element i bring up in Danlo's thread " gloating". Solving A puzzle,,,yes!,,

There is an assumption that can be tricky to deal with.. The Lack of " Love" or the same level of Passion as characterized in One Tree..Consider the " lesson" Mandoubt taught Linden about " Love"..or what may be considered as what fits within the parameters of generic " Love". So your observation about the lack of it is right on. I don't argue about it. I'm in agreement with Lindens observed " coolness". The author makes point of it from the issuance of the Command on. I'm going " with it". My instincts are that story teller will re-define the generic parameters of " Love" just as he has re-defined the parameters of Time and Space....The Mystery is..How are all of they " connected"?.

[ninjaboy]

I am not so certain...

In Donaldson's writing, even from the POV of Linden very few of us suspected she was going to attempt a resurrection.

She knew that such an attempt would be dangerous and it's obviously against the Laws that she and her friends are trying to preserve.. If her companions knew how much she did miss him, etc, perhaps they would have figured out her intent and prevented her from achieving it. So she HAD to hide her feelings for him..

Also, there is a BIG difference between the Linden who was taken back 10,000 years by Roger and the Croyel and the Linden who returned with the Mahdoubt. She cannot even cry anymore - All she seems to feel is Anger, all she wants is Revenge..

Her heart has become stone.. I forget what sort of stone.. But her ultimate resurrection of Covenant wasn't out of Love, but as SD stated in the GI, it was her only recourse.. She had nowhere else to go, no-one else who could help her in the way she needed..

However if he does not soften her heart, help her to hold love in her heart - not just anger and a lust for revenge - she will yet do much more damage to the Land.

[Zarathustra]

Her need for TC to pull a rabbit out of a hat and tell her how to save Jeremiah was clear.
But the fact that she dearly loved and missed TC just wasn't there in my opinion.
Or rather, not enough.
It was written more like she was solving a puzzle than getting back the man that she loved.

Anyone else get this impression?

That's a very good point. It was devoid of the impact you'd expect, given their past. And this is especially true given the potential for contrasting this with the Roger/Thomas experience. I suppose that will come in the next book, but it would have been nice to see a little of it in this one, at least leading up to it. Some sense of longing and excited expectation. Donaldson didn't want to ruin the surprise, but I think he withheld too much in pursuing that goal.

[emotional leper]

Her heart has become stone.. I forget what sort of stone.. But her ultimate resurrection of Covenant wasn't out of Love, but as SD stated in the GI, it was her only recourse.. She had nowhere else to go, no-one else who could help her in the way she needed..

Sexy, sexy stone.

About Linden's POV, I remember reading somewhere that when SRD was writing the Second Chronicles, he never could really get into writing from Linden's point of view. Maybe that's still going on?

[Seareach]

However if he does not soften her heart, help her to hold love in her heart - not just anger and a lust for revenge - she will yet do much more damage to the Land.

I like that.

[A Gunslinger]

However if he does not soften her heart, help her to hold love in her heart - not just anger and a lust for revenge - she will yet do much more damage to the Land.

I like that.

Don't you think that Linden has become self-aware enough that to realize that very fact on some level, and took the risk she did so that she could not only free her son, but also in hope that TC can reach her as she did on the Giantship?

*cues string swells*

[Seareach]

Don't you think that Linden has become self-aware enough that to realize that very fact on some level, and took the risk she did so that she could not only free her son, but also in hope that TC can reach her as she did on the Giantship?

Nah, I don't. Or, at least, I've never looked at it that way. I've always thought that her motivation to resurrect Covenant is simply because she needs his help and she feels she has no other choice. Of course, she loves Covenant, and who wouldn't want their dead love back. But I don't think on any subconscious level she's thinking "I'll resurrect him and he'll take away all this darkness within me". Emotionally (the mental state she's in at the moment), she feels her desire for revenge is justified. That's how I see it anyway.

[Ur Dead]

From the GI I think SRD answers the issue about Linden.

Marcus Huculak: This is intended more as a reaction than a question, and is certainly not intended for publication in the GI unless you have some reaction to it aimed at your other readers, but....

WHAT THE HELL?

How can Linden not -know better?- I can at least understand Elena, as Landwaster is my favorite character in the series, but Linden should certainly have learned something from her example. 3 more years to find out why the Rahynyn didn't stop her and how the Arch could possibly survive for 3 more books with Covenant ripped out of it with wild magic...it's going to be a long wait, and I, like all of us, will be eagerly waiting.






My personal reaction is, how could Linden do anything else? If you were in her shoes, how would you go about finding Jeremiah WHILE retaining some hope for the Land? After you've thoroughly convinced yourself of your own inadequacy? Sure, she could just go along with the Harrow to reach her son; but then she would be powerless to fight the croyel, never mind to defend the Land. What do you think her choices actually were?
(11/10/2007)

SRD is sideing with Linden.. He's a Linden supporter.

[Creator]

I agree with SRD

I never thought Linden resurrected Covenant because of her love for him.

She is angry. She SAW he son being abused (possession by the Croyel). She imagines what he is suffering at Roger's and Foul's hands. She is not thinking love ... she is thinking PISSED!!! And she wants as much firepower as possible. Covenant is that firepower. She will have him back, while gold, the completed - and blackened - staff, and the Krill. She will have LOTS of firepower.

I think she will need it.

Any parent here ... or someone with a small sibling. Imagine for a moment your loved one is kidnapped. You get them back after a long trial. And then you see that their recovery was a LIE. Then you see they are still being abused and taken away again ... to unspeakable torture. Would you be thinking love and passion? Or would you be thinking RAISE the world and woe to those who stand in your way!!?

[High Lord Tolkien]

Lots of good thoughts!
So I guess my impression that Linden did it out for her own selfish need rather than her love of TC was accurate.

THOOLAH!!!!

[emotional leper]

Lots of good thoughts!
So I guess my impression that Linden did it out for her own selfish need rather than her love of TC was accurate.

THOOLAH!!!!

You call desire to protect your child a selfish need?

This confirms my suspicions about you THOOLAH people.

[lurch]

Lots of good thoughts!
So I guess my impression that Linden did it out for her own selfish need rather than her love of TC was accurate.

THOOLAH!!!!

Well, don't stop there in satisfaction. The book ends with an unanswered question. Thats a BIG hint for the reader to explore ones Imagination. Again, consider the polar opposites brought up in this discussion; revenge, pissed, etc, and Love, Motherly care and Love, etc. Diametrically opposed states of mind.

Go to and look for a resolution that is " above" or on a higher plane of mental state, than the two diametrically opposed . A re-definition of " Love" is what I am anticipating. It may be a long and arduous traverse but the task is demanded to be fulfilled if Linden is to successfully answer the question, "Who Am I?"

[Creator]

besides ... only love going on is between the Stonedowner and Ramen ... two of the horniest people in the Chronicles it seems!!

[Ur Dead]

besides ... only love going on is between the Stonedowner and Ramen ... two of the horniest people in the Chronicles it seems!!

TC's second statement to Linden:

TC: See those two people?
Linden: yes, what about them?
TC: We used to be that way.
Linden: SO? What are you getting at.
TC: It may been 10 years for you but it been 3500 years for me!


Now, lets talk about who more horny!!!

[Variol Farseer]

Lots of good thoughts!
So I guess my impression that Linden did it out for her own selfish need rather than her love of TC was accurate.

THOOLAH!!!!

You call desire to protect your child a selfish need?

This confirms my suspicions about you THOOLAH people.

The desire to protect your child at all costs, no matter who else suffers, even if it leads directly to the destruction of the world — yes, that's not only selfish but intensely stupid.

EVERYONE tried to warn Linden. What frays my patience with FR as a whole is that nobody tried to STOP her.

Finding Jeremiah is best done by looking for him. She hasn't even begun to do that. It is not going to be accomplished by any amount of firepower. Between the Staff of Law, the wild magic, and the Earthblood, Linden had more than enough power to accomplish anything that could be done by power. Hell, she had more than enough power to bring the Arch of Time down around her ears. But no, that wasn't enough. And she just wouldn't listen to anyone.

Now it's time to reap the whirlwind.

[emotional leper]

As long as you admit it's a sexy whirlwind

[lurch]

Lots of good thoughts!
So I guess my impression that Linden did it out for her own selfish need rather than her love of TC was accurate.

THOOLAH!!!!

You call desire to protect your child a selfish need?

This confirms my suspicions about you THOOLAH people.

The desire to protect your child at all costs, no matter who else suffers, even if it leads directly to the destruction of the world — yes, that's not only selfish but intensely stupid.

EVERYONE tried to warn Linden. What frays my patience with FR as a whole is that nobody tried to STOP her.

Finding Jeremiah is best done by looking for him. She hasn't even begun to do that. It is not going to be accomplished by any amount of firepower. Between the Staff of Law, the wild magic, and the Earthblood, Linden had more than enough power to accomplish anything that could be done by power. Hell, she had more than enough power to bring the Arch of Time down around her ears. But no, that wasn't enough. And she just wouldn't listen to anyone.

Now it's time to reap the whirlwind.

I suspect you and those who perceive along the same lines,,have fallen victim to the " misdirection" that seems to becoming more and more obvious in Last Chronicles. Dealing with " Illusions" determining what is True and what is Slight of Mental Hand is Linden's task and trek. So, like Linden, the reader is to deal with a fair amount opportunity by the author to cast that which is not.

There is no fault with Lindens path. There is only surprise with what and how she makes hers.,,as it should be. Linden discovering her " self" implies a liberation and if that means a liberation of The Land and its occupants, as authors like to do when bringing a " series" to an end, then any whirlwind brought forth will end in beauty.

[Variol Farseer]

I suspect you and those who perceive along the same lines,,have fallen victim to the " misdirection" that seems to becoming more and more obvious in Last Chronicles. Dealing with " Illusions" determining what is True and what is Slight of Mental Hand is Linden's task and trek. So, like Linden, the reader is to deal with a fair amount opportunity by the author to cast that which is not.

There is no fault with Lindens path. There is only surprise with what and how she makes hers.,,as it should be. Linden discovering her " self" implies a liberation and if that means a liberation of The Land and its occupants, as authors like to do when bringing a " series" to an end, then any whirlwind brought forth will end in beauty.

The Worm of the World's End is awake, the Arch of Time is vulnerable, and Linden and Covenant are surrounded by more enemies than they know what to do with, from Sandgorgons to skurj. All this has happened because of the choices Linden made. And you say there is no fault with her path? I'd like to know what would have to happen before you did find fault.

[lurch]

Fair enuf..LINDEN already exists. The arch of Last Chrons is Linden seeing the obstacles, the obfuscations, the barriers, the dead ends, the " that which are not" (Illusions) , all that which delay, impede, and waste, her efforts to find and stay true to her self that already exists.

All of her " enemies" are required. They are necessary. Linden's " self" is found in her interface with them. The resolution of her and her enemy's interfacing , is Linden's discovery of her self. Of course they are p.o'ed because she rises above them, discovers something of her self above and beyond them, thereby reducing their influence and security.. If the whole of the Land is taken out in the process, it will be replaced with the all new. If anything, Linden owes all her "enemies" a big Thank You"

Take alook at the Viles interface,,then the interface with Caerroil Wildwood then the interface with Mahdoubt, bringing her back to present time. The play of polarity, high contrasts, inside out opposites, is fantastic. The Viles, black, unseen, Mystery Itself, offer Linden the Best advice, Wildwood, shiney, silver but totally into death, revenge, retribution, enhances the Power or depth of use of Linden's Staff. There is no " Stop Linden, You must not Do This,,Linden has to concentrate to figure out a way to repay Mahdoubt,,Finally she finds the totally correct gesture. Its not black,,Its not White..Its red,,the Hue half way between the polar opposites Black and White,,a simple piece of red flannel, as a gift,,gets Linden back to present time. Mahdoubt never says, " Linden, Stop, you must not do this.." Matter of fact, Mahdoubt is so sure that Linden is on the Right path..or ,,of the correct State of Mind,,that Mahdoubt is willing and does, sacrifice herself For Linden....

The red of the flannel shirt is the surreal metaphor of Linden rising above the diametrically opposed, the conflicting screaming me mes of the Black and White,,and finding a personal solution in between the immobile extremes. Her dark heart is renewed, rekindled, achieved by a whole new process. Linden now knows a different reality within her and remains cautious and somewhat secretive about this new reality that only Mahdoubt and her recognized...Stoopid?,,no,,no..more like a guarded fathoming of all the consequences.