There's a big thread a bit further down:
kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14183
Really great show.
Breaking Bad
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I'm Murrin
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Ah, shit, my bad, I dug a bit but obviously not far enough. Cag, feel free to delete this, I'll go check out the other one.
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This series was damn near perfect, and I'm going to enjoy reading through the comments here. This post will be SPOILERY, in case not everyone has read, though it seems I'm late on the bandwagon here.
To kick it up again, what did people find the most intense moments of this very intense series, and why? For me a massive turning point was Walt's decision to allow Jane to die. Here was where Walt did something, for the first time, unambiguously evil. You can rationalise making meth in a similar way Gale later does- it's a product sold and purchased willingly with consent from all parties. I don't agree with that reasoning, but it's valid in its own way. You can rationalise the deaths Walter had so far caused: it was his fault he found himself in those situations, but in the moment he acted in self defence. But Jane was allowed to die in a moment of cold calculation and self-interest. The Heisenburg who shoots Mike, orders the death of ten people, and leaves Jesse to be tortured and killed first shows his face here. And what was really powerful about that scene was you see Walt's humanity struggling with that callousness. His first instinct is to help, to save a life. Then you see that cold voice speak up in his head: what if....? When she is past help, he reacts with horror and remorse...before sucking it up and pushing past it. So much detail conveyed in almost total silence.
Your turn
To kick it up again, what did people find the most intense moments of this very intense series, and why? For me a massive turning point was Walt's decision to allow Jane to die. Here was where Walt did something, for the first time, unambiguously evil. You can rationalise making meth in a similar way Gale later does- it's a product sold and purchased willingly with consent from all parties. I don't agree with that reasoning, but it's valid in its own way. You can rationalise the deaths Walter had so far caused: it was his fault he found himself in those situations, but in the moment he acted in self defence. But Jane was allowed to die in a moment of cold calculation and self-interest. The Heisenburg who shoots Mike, orders the death of ten people, and leaves Jesse to be tortured and killed first shows his face here. And what was really powerful about that scene was you see Walt's humanity struggling with that callousness. His first instinct is to help, to save a life. Then you see that cold voice speak up in his head: what if....? When she is past help, he reacts with horror and remorse...before sucking it up and pushing past it. So much detail conveyed in almost total silence.
Your turn
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Enjoyed watching it, but the ending was so bad that it's really colored how I look at the entire series.
Add to that that Skyler's nothing more than a stereotypical shrew, Walt Jr. only eats breakfast, and Jesse pretty much only exists to say "bitch" and have terrible things happen to him.
It's an engaging show, but I don't think it stands up well at all. And the ending is terrible.
Add to that that Skyler's nothing more than a stereotypical shrew, Walt Jr. only eats breakfast, and Jesse pretty much only exists to say "bitch" and have terrible things happen to him.
It's an engaging show, but I don't think it stands up well at all. And the ending is terrible.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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SleeplessOne
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I strongly disagree on a number of pointsCail wrote:Enjoyed watching it, but the ending was so bad that it's really colored how I look at the entire series.
Add to that that Skyler's nothing more than a stereotypical shrew, Walt Jr. only eats breakfast, and Jesse pretty much only exists to say "bitch" and have terrible things happen to him.
It's an engaging show, but I don't think it stands up well at all. And the ending is terrible.
I think Skyler gets a hell of a bad rap by fans. The most shrewish moments she has are the penny-pinching ones in the early seasons, and she is an accountant after all- a damned good one as it later emerges. As soon as she discovered Walter's secret I had nothing but sympathy for her actions. She was dragged into a hellish world by the actions of her husband. She complains a lot about it, but wouldn't you??
No argument on Walt Jnr, I liked the kid ok but he had no major influence on the plot. It was hilarious when he got drunk and puked in the pool though.
Strongest possible disagreement when it comes to Jesse. He becomes the tortured moral conscience of the show. He knows that what is happening is wrong, but he has too much of a bond with Walt to stop himself being manipulated. I really started seeing the events of the show through Jesse's eyes more than Walt's, particularly in the very last season.
I thought the ending involved a lot of near-unbelievable good fortune for Walt, but overall wrapped up the themes and narrative nicely.
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Put it this way. I'd happily rewatch The Wire, or Fringe, or BSG. I wouldn't sit through BB again. It's not much more than unlikeable people making bad choices and having bad things happen to them.
Oh, and there's the worst DEA agent ever..... Hank would have fit right in with Dexter's Miami Metro.
And the ending.....Like Dexter, it just soured me on the entire series.
Oh, and there's the worst DEA agent ever..... Hank would have fit right in with Dexter's Miami Metro.
And the ending.....Like Dexter, it just soured me on the entire series.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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Zarathustra
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Damn good point.Cambo wrote:Strongest possible disagreement when it comes to Jesse. He becomes the tortured moral conscience of the show. He knows that what is happening is wrong, but he has too much of a bond with Walt to stop himself being manipulated. I really started seeing the events of the show through Jesse's eyes more than Walt's, particularly in the very last season.
Joe Biden … putting the Dem in dementia since (at least) 2020.
That was what the character was designed to do. It's interesting, because Jesse was supposed to die in the 3rd episode of the series.Zarathustra wrote:Damn good point.Cambo wrote:Strongest possible disagreement when it comes to Jesse. He becomes the tortured moral conscience of the show. He knows that what is happening is wrong, but he has too much of a bond with Walt to stop himself being manipulated. I really started seeing the events of the show through Jesse's eyes more than Walt's, particularly in the very last season.
Even still, Jesse's manipulation parallels the manipulation of the audience. I found that manipulation cheap.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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Zarathustra
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Yeah, I don't like overt audience manipulation, either. Maybe it's just a personal difference, but for me I didn't notice the writers' hands in the handling of the story. I thought Jessie's reactions were earned, and not gratuitous--especially how he fought Walt's manipulation (unsuccessfully). The fact that he was culpable made his guilt less "preachy." His pain seemed genuine, both from the character's perspective and the actor's performance.
With Skylar, you might have a better case.
With Skylar, you might have a better case.
Joe Biden … putting the Dem in dementia since (at least) 2020.
Skylar felt like she kept trying to be a good character, but she consistently fell into the typical TV wife trope.....Nearly everything she does is all about her.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
Cail, I wanted to say that I really enjoyed reading the old posts you had about the show. I didn't agree always, but I liked reading your thoughts on it.
I thought Jesse, as a whole, was just as culpable and bad as Walt. There were times when Walt just wanted to make his money and Jesse's problems drew him into conflict, violence and so because Jesse was a son to him. Without some of the destructive things Jesse did, the series could have ended with Walt just cooking for Gus and him packing a lunch to go to jobb each day. I think both Walt and Jesse were required to get them both to the point they were. They created a vicious cycle.
i think where they separated is that Walt, having been down trodden, loved the power that he found, whereas Jesse, who was just a young man, found the power did not fill the hole in him. Had Jesse been an older man like Walt, having lived a life of lost potential, powerlessness, I think he may have likely been just as susceptible to the seduction.
On Skylar... I liked her. I mean, I didn't really like her, but I liked how she was portrayed. I liked the way the character worked. I thought she was close to home as we say, meaning she felt real. I liked that she vacillated between outrage, disgust and seduction for the situation. I also loved the IFT moment.
The ending... well, it was very neatly wrapped up. Perhaps too perfectly. Could have done with sloppier outcome, I think. But, it didn't ruin the show for me as it did for Cail.
I thought Jesse, as a whole, was just as culpable and bad as Walt. There were times when Walt just wanted to make his money and Jesse's problems drew him into conflict, violence and so because Jesse was a son to him. Without some of the destructive things Jesse did, the series could have ended with Walt just cooking for Gus and him packing a lunch to go to jobb each day. I think both Walt and Jesse were required to get them both to the point they were. They created a vicious cycle.
i think where they separated is that Walt, having been down trodden, loved the power that he found, whereas Jesse, who was just a young man, found the power did not fill the hole in him. Had Jesse been an older man like Walt, having lived a life of lost potential, powerlessness, I think he may have likely been just as susceptible to the seduction.
On Skylar... I liked her. I mean, I didn't really like her, but I liked how she was portrayed. I liked the way the character worked. I thought she was close to home as we say, meaning she felt real. I liked that she vacillated between outrage, disgust and seduction for the situation. I also loved the IFT moment.
The ending... well, it was very neatly wrapped up. Perhaps too perfectly. Could have done with sloppier outcome, I think. But, it didn't ruin the show for me as it did for Cail.
Monsters, they eat
Your kind of meat
And they're moving as far as they can
And as fast as they can
Your kind of meat
And they're moving as far as they can
And as fast as they can
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I don't think there's any way Walt would have just cooked for Gus happily, Ananda. Gus didn't even want to take Walt on, because he was arrogant and thought himself much more savvy than he actually was; the plan was always to cut Walt loose once Gale learned the meth recipe. Walt was impossible to work with, and Gus knew it. Walt antagonised Gus, and manipulated Jesse into killing Gale, because he couldn't stand the idea of being shut out.
I thought everything was fine with Jesse and Walt cooking together, Gale having been let go, till Walt drove down Gus' men to save Jesse?I'm Murrin wrote:I don't think there's any way Walt would have just cooked for Gus happily, Ananda. Gus didn't even want to take Walt on, because he was arrogant and thought himself much more savvy than he actually was; the plan was always to cut Walt loose once Gale learned the meth recipe. Walt was impossible to work with, and Gus knew it. Walt antagonised Gus, and manipulated Jesse into killing Gale, because he couldn't stand the idea of being shut out.
Monsters, they eat
Your kind of meat
And they're moving as far as they can
And as fast as they can
Your kind of meat
And they're moving as far as they can
And as fast as they can
Really it was Walt firing Gale and taking Jesse in that eventually brought everything crumbling down- although by way of Jesse's particular morality, rather than his incompetence, as Gus first thought. I think Walt should have just left Jesse and kept working with Gale; Jesse would have sued Hank, yes, and Walt was probably worried about those two volatile people clashing when one of them knew his secret. But I think it would have blown over.Ananda wrote:I thought everything was fine with Jesse and Walt cooking together, Gale having been let go, till Walt drove down Gus' men to save Jesse?I'm Murrin wrote:I don't think there's any way Walt would have just cooked for Gus happily, Ananda. Gus didn't even want to take Walt on, because he was arrogant and thought himself much more savvy than he actually was; the plan was always to cut Walt loose once Gale learned the meth recipe. Walt was impossible to work with, and Gus knew it. Walt antagonised Gus, and manipulated Jesse into killing Gale, because he couldn't stand the idea of being shut out.
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Cagliostro
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I'm bringing this all up again because I was telling someone about the Elohimfest that was in Albuquerque and we got bumped from the main area of this restaurant because Breaking Bad was having their wrap party there. I went out for a smoke and met a couple of people who said they were producers of the show. I think it was the second or third season they were completing at the time.
I looked at pictures of the producers and recognize Peter Gould as one of the two people (I have a good memory of faces, but shit for names). I think the other guy was Vince Gilligan, as I kinda recognize his facial hair. Did anybody else here go out with me for that smoke, because I was wondering if anybody else recognized these guys?
I looked at pictures of the producers and recognize Peter Gould as one of the two people (I have a good memory of faces, but shit for names). I think the other guy was Vince Gilligan, as I kinda recognize his facial hair. Did anybody else here go out with me for that smoke, because I was wondering if anybody else recognized these guys?
Life is a waste of time
Time is a waste of life
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Savor Dam
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Cag, yes, the 2011 Elohimfest was at the same restaurant and same night as the Breaking Bad wrap party, so we got bumped from the room we'd booked into a smaller one. Scott Brick (Audio Covenant), Menolly, and I shared a bottle of wine over dinner. I'm not a smoker, so I didn't join you outside, but I did run into Breaking Bad folks in the loo...not that I knew who they were in real time.
Tangentially, if you could nudge your "sister" about the video for the 2014 Elohimfest, we've been waiting for that rather a long time.
Tangentially, if you could nudge your "sister" about the video for the 2014 Elohimfest, we've been waiting for that rather a long time.
Love prevails.
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Change is not a process for the impatient.
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A government which robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on the support of Paul.
~ George Bernard Shaw
~ Tracie Mckinney-Hammon
Change is not a process for the impatient.
~ Barbara Reinhold
A government which robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on the support of Paul.
~ George Bernard Shaw
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Cagliostro
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But there was only one bathroom there, and it was past their exclusive party, so they had to let you through. I know I used it, dammit. I must have tried after there were complaints.
Ultimately it doesn't matter who they were, but I was just curious. Funny that the show hadn't hit the frenzy quite by the point we shared space with them. But I did tell them I knew my mom was a fan of the show, but I was sad to say I hadn't watched it yet, but intend to. I wished them luck with the show. They sure as shit didn't need my luck with that show.
With that said, I never did really watch much beyond the first season. Movies and shows about power hold no interest to me. I'm much more into discovery of the self and human truths.
Ultimately it doesn't matter who they were, but I was just curious. Funny that the show hadn't hit the frenzy quite by the point we shared space with them. But I did tell them I knew my mom was a fan of the show, but I was sad to say I hadn't watched it yet, but intend to. I wished them luck with the show. They sure as shit didn't need my luck with that show.
With that said, I never did really watch much beyond the first season. Movies and shows about power hold no interest to me. I'm much more into discovery of the self and human truths.
Life is a waste of time
Time is a waste of life
So get wasted all of the time
And you'll have the time of your life