I don't want to read this book anymore~

[Blue_Spawn]

I understand that this topic is very old and that much discussion has been put into it in a previous thread (all of which I have read). But I cannot help other than to throw in my own two cents, since I am one of the people that threw the book across the room and was on the verge of burning it (before I realized that it belonged to somebody else)

I, like most readers, was looking forward to a drama/fantasy story. I knew prehand, that I was reading a rather serious novel (not Dragonlance or LOTR) and dramatic narration. The "Lena" chapter, however, startled me nontheless. Not so much because it was unexpected. Donaldson did a very good job at developing Lena's character, to such a point where I became attached to her. In those few chapters of her first appearance, Donaldson manages to turn her into someone ten times more benevolent than Jesus. If you exclude the fact that Covenant committed an act of violent rape, the part of who he did it to is still there and to me it is even more important. The fact, that out of all the people that treated him like crap, he had to pick Lena, is a thing that bothers me greatly.

I understand that in the moment which he committed the act he believed the fantasy world to be unreal (or wanted to believe that it wasn't). If you take that point of view, that he did it because it was a virtual reality, it still becomes irrelevant. I mean, if you were playing a video game would you take upon a desicion of raping someone like that, if it was allowed? Some of us would not, whether it would be real or not. Thus, we cannot use the explanation of reality/dream to establish as one of the reasons. For we lean more towards the indication that Thomas is simply a maniac in that part of his brain.

Many have pointed out that it was his emotional/confusion state that made Covenant rape her. I agree with a part of that, but I also like to state an arguement which has been left out by many in this conversation.

In the begining of the novel, we are given substantial, numerous evidences that Covenant (in addition to being a nut case) is sexually obsessed. He makes reference to wanting (sexually) a group of highschool girls, his ex-wife Joan, and notes Lena's breasts and figure at least four times. In addition, as Covenant rips appart Lena's clothing, we are given indications that he enjoys what he does. That he does it almost with pride, that he stares at her bare breasts for a moment, and that he "suffocates in passion" as he rapes her. Someone said that being apart from his wife gives him great sexual desires. Desiring sex is one thing, but going as far as actually committing forced sex to achieve it is another. I am quite confident that sexual obsession is part of Covenant's nature.

Look, I understand that Donaldson did not intent for Thomas to be a good guy. I am okay with main characters that are jerks. In the first five books of Amber Chronicles, Corwin (its main guy) is also a major jackass, but at least he has his limits. Yet here, there is a protagonist who savagely rapes an innocent girl, the most kindest, nicest person to ever exist anywhere, and we are supposed to accept him as a hero? For a hero he must be, if he has 6 novels dedicated to his adventures, and not a violent, prolonging death (which I belief he has more than deserved). And in fact, I would have even tolerated the rape if the story revolved around Lena's point of view. But she, as it turns out, is just a side character, for Covenant forgets about her rather quickly. As if to him, rape is a common thing and something he had done a myriad times to become accostomed to.

I am stuck in the middle of Chapter 8 as I seem to have no interest in reading half a dozen novels dedicated to a rapist who is supposed to save the world. Lord Foul's Bane is a very well written novel, with a combination of both high level figurative language and simple adventure (which so many fantasy novels like LOTR, Dragonlance and Amber Chronicles seem to lack). It has (at least in the beggining) a good storyline and complex language (also, something rarely seen in a fantasy novel). But how can one read into, and thus sympathize with such a character? I fail to see a single, good reason.

Reguards, Blue_Spawn.

P.S. If you feel that this post is causing spam by going outside the "Chapter 7+8" thread, feel free to move it. I just thought that this would be a bit off topic if I put it there.

[Furls Fire]

Hail Blue-Spawn

I am guessing that you are just now starting to read the books, is that so? If it is, I want to tell you to keep reading! Covenant ends up paying for raping Lena many many times. I will not say how, because it would be a "spoiler". He also very much regrets it and he never ever forgets what he did to her.

When I started reading the books, over 20 years ago, I too was appalled by what Covenant did to Lena. But, as I read on and as you will see, he does not "get away with it." And Lena is definately not a "side character". You will get more inside his head, you will begin to understand why such a thing happened. Donaldson is a master character builder, and believe it or not, you will grow to love as well as hate Covenant. The man is a genius.

After so many re-reads I have done with these books...all I feel for Covenant now is profound grief. And, I do understand him. No, I don't forgive him for raping Lena, and he never forgives himself either...as you will see.

For all his sins, he becomes very much the hero.

Please keep reading!! The Land is a wondrous place, full of Earthpower and Giants and Lords and Rhanyhyn and Forestals... You really will be missing out if you stop now

[[Syl]]

Welcome, Blue Spawn, and thank you for posting your thoughts at this critical juncture of the book. I'm not sure if others feel this way, but after so many times reading the book, it's hard for me to remember my original revulsion to Covenant's actions.

My only advice, other than to keep reading, is to know that Donaldson does have a sense of justice. No one would think of asking you to forgive Covenant or just accept what he's done. What I ask is that you kind of distance yourself from the immediacy of the plot and look at it more in terms of human nature.

[Kinslaughterer]

The first book I read was the Illearth War. I was young and didn't realize it was part of a series. He loved the book and soon found out it was only one of three. By the time I found Lord Foul's Bane I was already hooked but was nonetheless taken aback by Covenant's behavior but I understood it perhaps moreso than if I would have read it first.

[Fist and Faith]

This is not a snotty question, I'm being serious. Why are you here? It seems odd that someone would decide to stop reading the first of a series of books, then become a member at a site dedicated to those books, and very publicly say you're not going to read more. Are you hoping, because you've heard something good about it that you actually want to see, to be convinced to continue? Are you just ranting? Are you trying to tell us that we also should have stopped at the rape? I really don't know how to respond without knowing which direction you're coming from. I wouldn't respond to the 2nd or 3rd reasons. I guess I'll just assume the 1st.

As for the things you said, you are right and wrong. Wrong about the impact the rape has on Covenant. And, of course, the impact it has on others around him, and how its effect on them effects him. But you can't know that without reading the rest.

But you're right about the vile, disgusting nature of it. Yes, Lena was an unbelievably beautiful child, and we get WAY too clear a picture of her horror. I hadn't read that scene in many years before joining this site less than a year ago. When I read it recently, I was shocked by the brutality. I had forgotten how bad it is. It is most certainly beneath contempt, and it is nothing anyone asks you to forgive. Covenant doesn't, SRD doesn't, and we don't. But we'll tell you that there are aspects of the books that are worth reading. We won't even say to ignore it and concentrate on the rest. It is integral in many many ways, shading so many things in sorrow. But it is worth reading.

But hey, not everybody is able to get past it. I know a woman who couldn't, and I'm sure there are thousands of others who couldn't either. Don't beat yourself up too badly about it.

[duchess of malfi]

Well said, Fist, well said.

[Kinslaughterer]

Rape is a very terrible event and it seems fairly rare in fantasy literature. Conversely, murder and killing are also equally terrible events yet they are common in fantasy writing. Typically we direct such violence at non-human entities (ie orcs), It seems we stomach that better but it is still murder and violence.
I suppose my point is that the writing and conclusions are the most important part of the story when all is said and done.

[duchess of malfi]

Fist said:

This is not a snotty question, I'm being serious. Why are you here? It seems odd that someone would decide to stop reading the first of a series of books, then become a member at a site dedicated to those books, and very publicly say you're not going to read more. Are you hoping, because you've heard something good about it that you actually want to see, to be convinced to continue? Are you just ranting? Are you trying to tell us that we also should have stopped at the rape? I really don't know how to respond without knowing which direction you're coming from.

I am having the same problem. Sometimes it can be difficult when reading a post what someone's intent or question is, and I am also having trouble knowing quite how to respond to you.
The rape IS a very heinous act, and if you do stick with the books the author makes that VERY clear.
I am not sure if that is the reassurance you are looking for, though?

[danlo]

Well, I'll tone myself down because I just watched a very disturbing documentary about murder and violence in America called Bowling for Columbine so I'm not in a great mood.

To add to what the others have said before me: In LFB you are dealing with very complex and disturbing issues that aren't normally explored, to this extent, in most popular literature. Complete social ostracization; the promise of a slow, painful and lonely death and a type of character that most are not used to: an anti-hero. You are not supposed to like Covenant. He creates his own hell with the very act of rape and it is up to the reader to decide if they wish to see how this scenario plays out. This series is not for the faint of heart, by any means. The series, like life, will take you to highs and lows you can barely imagine. It will mess with your emotions, and can effect you in ways you didn't know possible.

Much of what happens to TC is in his own psyche: emotionally, mentally and spiritually and I, for one, see a huge difference in attaching those "planes" to the concept of a dream as opposed to Virtual Reality--but that's a topic unto itself...

Again refer to what the others have posted above, and remember it is your choice. If you have the fortitude and emotional stamina to go on you might find parts of it to be amazing, if you don't you shouldn't be on this board. I understand how, after reading the newer responses (to the rape chapter) in Dissecting the Land, you feel compelled to post here . But I think it would probably be best if I move this topic to the Covenant forum...

[Vain]

I never saw TC as the hero (Vain's my hero)

And I don't think I could express my views any more succinctly than danlo has. The chrons are an adventure in a lifetime and a lifetime of memories and recollections and emotions......and as was said.....we're going back to the land...for one last slide into hell and bliss....and that's just awesome

[Furls Fire]

Hear Hear Vain!!

I'm ready for another ride that is for sure!!

[Skyweir]

I have to agree with Vain .. as much as I came to love the series .. I never saw TC as my hero. TC was the constant irritant .. not only had he acted immorally but then he was rude and bitter and evasive of responsibilty for his actions till much much later in the series.

Blue_Spawn your comments are most welcome and I can appreciate your point of view at this critical part of LFB. I experienced this same conflict myself when I began reading this series .. but Donaldson is actually very clever Blue Spawn .. he adds dimensions to this character that allow us to gain some level of tolerance and later appreciation for this character. TC doesnt actually ever forget about his abhorant act .. nor does he forget about the innocent young girl victim. HE does actually use this reprehensible experience to magnify his own self-loahting .. to such an extent that the reader is eventually forced to want him to let up on himself .. TC does retain a high degree of self-loathing .. teh degree of which no punishment can truly match imho. and ultimately he does offer the greatest sacrifice he is capable of in order to redeem himself of his heinous sin.

Donaldson delves into issues of humanity .. as danlo points out on many levels .. and questions of ethics .. the rape of Lena being one of them.

Is a man guilty of an act he dreamt? to what level is culpabilty to be assigned of offeces in ones dream state? what level does a persons 'belief' play in the commission of such a heinous offece?

I loathed TC throughout most of the 1st series too! but Blue_Spawn if you want to continue with the books .. I feel sure you will gain the same love for them many of us here share.

and if not .. then I hope you will find a book more to your liking

welcome Blue_Spawn .. be welcome among us .. welcome and true!!

[Ryzel]

Just a quick point here. Covenant had been sexually dysfunctional (impotent) for years before the beginning of Lord Foul's Bane. It is not especially difficult to imagine that he might have developed an obsession with sex.

[Penner Theologius Pott]

Um, quick thought. Why can't a vile person be a hero?

The word "hero" doesn't necessarily denote any kind of purity of character. Heck, our own history should demonstrate this dozens of times over. A person can go through their entire lives self-involved and cruel to others; then, when the chips are down, they can be the ones to perform an act of selflessness. Likewise, someone who is compassionate and charming may not have what it takes when the moment comes.

I don't think a "hero" is necessarily a higher order of being; I think that it's impossible to determine who is and isn't going to be a hero until the moment comes.

Which is a pretty terrifying though, if you really think about it.

[Ryzel]

I prefer using the word protagonist about TC in the first chronicles. He certainly is not very heroic.

[variol son]

When my friends who don't read the genre ask me what TCTC are about, I tell them that they are about a man, snatched from our world into a land of magic and power, where he is healed of leprosy and hailed as something close to but not quite a god, and definately a saviour. I then tell them that he refuses (and I say refuses because it was always a choice with TC) to believe that this place is real, rapes the first person he meets, and then sits on his hands doing nothing while myriads of perfectly good, not to mention talented and beautiful and amazingly deep and emotional, people get butchered all around him.

In my mind Thomas Covenant in the first chronicles is a hero, and at the same time profoundly repulsive. What he did to Lena is inexcusable but that he believed he was dreaming, and that is only a defence from certain angles. What made him one of the most amazing characters in my mind is not what he did to Lena, nor what he does in the end for the land in the second chronicles, but the amazing journey that he goes on in between.

This journey has nothing to do with walking through Andelain with Atiaran or floating down the Soulsease with Foamfollower or riding across the Plains of Ra with Prothal and Mhoram or braving the caverns of Gravin Threndor with Bannor or sailing the vast seas beyond the eastern shore of the Land with Linden Avery. This journey has everything to do with the thoughts and feelings, the drives and motivations, the promises and bargains and counter-bargains, the arguments and remonstrances, and most of all the self-talk and self-loathing that go on within TC's mind. It is this growth and development of his character that makes Thomas Covenant an amazing character, even though it does not change the fact that he is a rapist, and it is this that make SRD such an amazing author.

Blue_Spawn, I encourage you to keep reading, for no other reason than to learn more about yourself. I was amazed at what I found within my own heart when I came face to face with Thomas Covenant, in all his manifestations. I learned about hate, about love, about fear, about abandonment, about rejection, and about living for and believing in something beyond myself. I see this as being well worth the disgust I felt as Lena's innocence was ripped away from her that fateful night.

TC never forgives himself for that, and SRD never really expects us to either. Lena, however, transcends us all in that regard, and in both life and death she transcends what TC did to her to become a true heroine of the Land. For her sake also I implore you to consider reading on.

In the very apprpriate words of our dearest lady, Lord Sky...

Welcome Blue_Spawn. Be welcome among us, welcome and true!!

Sum sui generis (And it is this that makes life all that we desire it to be.)
Vs

[I'm Murrin]

That is the main problem with the first books - The only way for people who stop after that scene to realise the truth of it is to read the rest of the books, which some will not do if they found it that bad. That act affects Covenants entire life for the course of the First Chrons, and his self-loathing is a part of his character throughout.

I think I ought to just say that I was never truly appalled by the rape. When I read it, it was a surprise, but it didn't horrify me in any way, like it does other people - I just took it as part of the story and kept going.

The chrons are always a struggle. Reading them has always been a challenge for me, since the viewpoint characters he uses are nearly all in some kind of emotional conflict - Linden, Covenant, Hile Troy... While I find it very rewarding, these are still very difficult minds to come to grips with.

[Blue_Spawn]

I decided to register because I didn't want to post as a random guest. And I'm sorry about the confusion I caused. At first I wanted to share my view points in the "Chapter 7 and 8" discussion (for I thought I saw a few spots that were left unexplored). By the time I finished typing I realized that I strode off into a somewhat different direction and so not wishing to recieve complaints for going off-topic, decided to make a new thread. Once again, sorry for the mess.

[danlo]

Please try not to give up on the series!

[[Syl]]

Not a problem, Blue Spawn. Welcome to the Watch. Welcome and True.