Mordant's Princesses

"Reflect" on Stephen Donaldson's other epic fantasy

Moderator: Cord Hurn

Which is your favorite princess?

Elega
0
No votes
Torrent
3
10%
Myste
26
90%
 
Total votes: 29

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Cord Hurn
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Post by Cord Hurn »

IrrationalSanity wrote:
Cord Hurn wrote:
In Chapter 50 of [i]A Man Rides Through[/i] was wrote:Watching their father and the Alend Contender from the distance of the pennon, the ladies Elega and Myste stood like reflections of each other, holding their breath together when the monster roared or moved, exhaling in shared appreciation of what King Joyse and the Prince accomplished.

As the army fought down its panic, Elega murmured, "I did not believe that we would ever see him like this again."

"I hoped for it," replied Myste softly. "I could not bear to give it up. That is the difference between us. I cannot live without old hopes. You are willing to let them go in order to conceive new ones."

At the moment, Elega had no idea whether she considered this an accurate observation or not.
I don't think it's quite as simple as Myste puts it. After all, Myste deciding to go after the champion involves discarding an old hope and conceiving a new hope, does it not?
It could be interpreted that way, I suppose, when she said that she feared if she stayed she would grow to hate her father. (or was it hate what he had "become"?) But I would say in that case that she left BECAUSE she retained that hope, and did not want to lose it. But also because she felt there was a need for someone to approach the Champion without being an overt threat, and "problems should be solved by those who see them". So, in that respect it is less giving up an old hope in favor of a new one, than it is taking responsibility for a need which she perceived, and felt she could fulfill.

You make a convincing case, Sanity. Well done! :biggrin:
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shadowbinding shoe
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

I finally got around to reading this thread. Sorry for being so late.

When I read Elega's descriptions in your quotes, I remembered of course her indoors, candlelit fitting features and her striking violet eyes (which are perhaps a word play on Violent/Violate) of course but her short cropped hair caught me by surprise. I imagined her, like the other female characters in the story with long hair. She is a beauty after all, right? Long hair to hide her scheming face behind was another thing I half pictured. But that's not MN Elega. That Elega wants to partake in the Men's World of power and politics. She despises the weakness of women in her culture. She wears nice dresses, true. I guess she must, but she cuts her hair short. Elega, is Mordant's version of a feminist. At least, her speeches early on in the books are feminist speeches. Til the end of the series she keeps her short haircut as far as I can tell. Kragen, I think, falls for her assertive personality not her beauty. We know Terisa is the curvaceous ideal of feminine beauty and Myste comes close but isn't as full chested, Elega I'm guessing is on the slim side.

"Myste, you are incurable." A small frown pinched Elega's forehead. "If the High King's Monomach broke in upon us, butchered me before your eyes, and raised your skirts with his sword, you would say that we must not be quick to judge him."

"I trust," the lady Myste said gravely, but without irritation, "that the High King's Monomach has more honor."
I found this quote telling in retrospect. Elega makes the indomitable High King Monomach a lecher which we know he isn't. (He's only bloodthirsty. Literally.) Myste imagines he has honor which is bullshit as well.

Cord Hurn wrote:
Elega is probably polling so low in this thread because there is a disdainfulness about her that comes out at times that can make her character less endearing to readers than is the case with her two younger sisters. But I would defend her by saying that her disdainfulness doesn't decend to level of Eremis' mostly-hidden contempt for nearly everybody around him.

She [Elega] looked away. Cupping her hands about her elbows, she gripped them tightly. "I hate it when he [Master Eremis] looks at me like that. He smiles and jests, but all I see is scorn."
Elega is very aware of the ways of men and women I guess. But she's not depraved and isn't attracted to domination plays like Terisa was at first. I doubt she was ever with someone before Kragen though maybe that's an assumption.

Myste sees the goodness in people even when it's not there while Elega sees their faults.

"And you are not translated by them?"

"No."

The lady rose to her feet. Facing the hearth, she cupped her hands under her elbows, holding her forearms across her midriff as if to restrain herself from an outbreak of emotion. "You insist that you are an ordinary woman. Perhaps that is true in your world. But is it possible that your are translated and do not know it--or take it for granted? Here, we are told that any man who faces a flat glass in which he sees himself facing himself will be lost in a translation which never ends. But what if you--if all the people of your world--possess a power which we lack? A power to master the most dangerous manifestation of Imagery? You might be unaware of it--and yet it would be fundamental enough to alter all our preconceptions."
Facing the hearth, she cupped her hands under her elbows, holding her forearms across her midriff as if to restrain herself from an outbreak of emotion. We've seen Elega do this once before, after facing Master Eremis' air of superiority. It can show her resistance to an idea, such as the idea that Eremis is as superior as he nonverbally insists, or the idea that Terisa is really as ordinary as she verbally insists.
I read it the opposite way. Elega is excited about the possibilities of Terisa's world full of nascent Imagers. With Eremis she hugged herself in self protection from his killer intent, here she holds herself to stop from bursting in excitement. Similar gestures for opposite reasons.




[more to follow]
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Post by Cord Hurn »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:I finally got around to reading this thread. Sorry for being so late.

When I read Elega's descriptions in your quotes, I remembered of course her indoors, candlelit fitting features and her striking violet eyes (which are perhaps a word play on Violent/Violate) of course but her short cropped hair caught me by surprise. I imagined her, like the other female characters in the story with long hair. She is a beauty after all, right? Long hair to hide her scheming face behind was another thing I half pictured. But that's not MN Elega. That Elega wants to partake in the Men's World of power and politics. She despises the weakness of women in her culture. She wears nice dresses, true. I guess she must, but she cuts her hair short. Elega, is Mordant's version of a feminist. At least, her speeches early on in the books are feminist speeches. Til the end of the series she keeps her short haircut.
No need to apologize, Shoe, for anytime is a good time to hear your insights on a Mordant's Need topic, in my opinion. I think you're right to point out that Elega's short hair is symbolic of her wanting to take a greater role in politics, a role that is considered to be a masculine pursuit in this world.
shadowbindingshoe wrote:I found this quote telling in retrospect. Elega makes the indomitable High King Monomach a lecher which we know he isn't. (He's only bloodthirsty. Literally.) Myste imagines he has honor which is bullshit as well.
In some ways, Elega can be unrealistically pessimistic about people, and Myste unrealistically optimistic.
shadowbinding shoe wrote:
Cord Hurn wrote:
"And you are not translated by them?"

"No."

The lady rose to her feet. Facing the hearth, she cupped her hands under her elbows, holding her forearms across her midriff as if to restrain herself from an outbreak of emotion. "You insist that you are an ordinary woman. Perhaps that is true in your world. But is it possible that your are translated and do not know it--or take it for granted? Here, we are told that any man who faces a flat glass in which he sees himself facing himself will be lost in a translation which never ends. But what if you--if all the people of your world--possess a power which we lack? A power to master the most dangerous manifestation of Imagery? You might be unaware of it--and yet it would be fundamental enough to alter all our preconceptions."
Facing the hearth, she cupped her hands under her elbows, holding her forearms across her midriff as if to restrain herself from an outbreak of emotion. We've seen Elega do this once before, after facing Master Eremis' air of superiority. It can show her resistance to an idea, such as the idea that Eremis is as superior as he nonverbally insists, or the idea that Terisa is really as ordinary as she verbally insists.
I read it the opposite way. Elega is excited about the possibilities of Terisa's world full of nascent Imagers. With Eremis she hugged herself in self protection from his killer intent, here she holds herself to stop from bursting in excitement. Similar gestures for opposite reasons.
That's possible as an interpretation, I admit. Yet I can also see this as Elega in a stance of denial, whether she is denying Eremis' air of superiority, or she is denying Terisa's assumption of ordinariness.
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Post by samrw3 »

[quote="Cord Hurn
shadowbinding shoe wrote:
Cord Hurn wrote:
"And you are not translated by them?"

"No."

The lady rose to her feet. Facing the hearth, she cupped her hands under her elbows, holding her forearms across her midriff as if to restrain herself from an outbreak of emotion. "You insist that you are an ordinary woman. Perhaps that is true in your world. But is it possible that your are translated and do not know it--or take it for granted? Here, we are told that any man who faces a flat glass in which he sees himself facing himself will be lost in a translation which never ends. But what if you--if all the people of your world--possess a power which we lack? A power to master the most dangerous manifestation of Imagery? You might be unaware of it--and yet it would be fundamental enough to alter all our preconceptions."
Facing the hearth, she cupped her hands under her elbows, holding her forearms across her midriff as if to restrain herself from an outbreak of emotion. We've seen Elega do this once before, after facing Master Eremis' air of superiority. It can show her resistance to an idea, such as the idea that Eremis is as superior as he nonverbally insists, or the idea that Terisa is really as ordinary as she verbally insists.
I read it the opposite way. Elega is excited about the possibilities of Terisa's world full of nascent Imagers. With Eremis she hugged herself in self protection from his killer intent, here she holds herself to stop from bursting in excitement. Similar gestures for opposite reasons.
That's possible as an interpretation, I admit. Yet I can also see this as Elega in a stance of denial, whether she is denying Eremis' air of superiority, or she is denying Terisa's assumption of ordinariness.[/quote]

I have to agree with Cord on this one - although with a little wiggle worm. I read it as her denial Terisa's assumption of ordinariness because she is frustrated that Terisa doesn't see the exciting possibilities of such a strong imager. In other words she is containing both emotions at the same time but is displaying through her body as denial because her first reflex is to be frustrated which is shown as hugging herself - a "defensive" body posture.

Let me say it this way if her first and full reaction was "positive" and more full of the excitement emotions her hands would be in motion even to the point of thrust out in front of her moving randomly.
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

samrw3 wrote:
shadowbinding shoe wrote:
Cord Hurn wrote: That's possible as an interpretation, I admit. Yet I can also see this as Elega in a stance of denial, whether she is denying Eremis' air of superiority, or she is denying Terisa's assumption of ordinariness.
I have to agree with Cord on this one - although with a little wiggle worm. I read it as her denial Terisa's assumption of ordinariness because she is frustrated that Terisa doesn't see the exciting possibilities of such a strong imager. In other words she is containing both emotions at the same time but is displaying through her body as denial because her first reflex is to be frustrated which is shown as hugging herself - a "defensive" body posture.

Let me say it this way if her first and full reaction was "positive" and more full of the excitement emotions her hands would be in motion even to the point of thrust out in front of her moving randomly.
So she'd be free dancing? :P :lol:
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Post by Cord Hurn »

samrw3 wrote:I have to agree with Cord on this one - although with a little wiggle worm. I read it as her denial Terisa's assumption of ordinariness because she is frustrated that Terisa doesn't see the exciting possibilities of [Terisa's being] such a strong Imager. In other words she is containing both emotions at the same time but is displaying through her body as denial because her first reflex is to be frustrated which is shown as hugging herself - a "defensive" body posture.
This strikes a neat balance between Shoe's interpretation and my interpretation of Elega's clasping herself. Nicely done, Sam, and I can endorse this view! 8)
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Post by Cord Hurn »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:[more to follow]
Well, I certainly hope so, shadowbinding shoe! It will be very interesting to read your viewpoints on the three sisters. After all, you are as much of a scholar on the Mordant's Need story as I am, if not more so. We may come to complete agreement, or maybe not, but I still enjoy the discussions and feel grateful for the participation. 8) :thumbsup:
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