HOW WOULD YOU ACT IF YOU REALLY THOUGHT YOU WERE DREAMING?

[aTOMiC]

I've often given consideration to Thomas Covenant's actions, especially in the early moments during Lord Foul's Bane and again in many ways throughout the remainder of the story.
In the "Real World" Covenant the person has many established issues. He has been deeply affected by much of what has happened to him in the preceding year. Altered and changed by circumstances far beyond his control to the point that Covenant, at the point where we first meet him, is a distinctly different person when compared to the man he had been before contracting his disease. Covenant is not a typical healthy well adjusted person. His mental and emotional well being has been irrevocably compromised by his illness, his divorce and the fact of being ostracized by the community at large. When he is translated to the Land he would not, could not cope in a way most of us would identify with. However one aspect of his circumstances would likely be universal to us all.
At first, in the beginning, I believe most of us would conclude that we were dreaming. No other logical explanation would fit and the trauma of being translated would almost certainly have some kind of physiological, not to mention psychological effect on the one being transported.

How many unusual or even amazing things have we experienced while dreaming? How many extraordinary acts are we capable while in the dream state? Flying? Feats of strength? Acts of heroism? Darker more sinister things? All of the uncharacteristic things we experience during dreams seem otherworldly and yet strangely realistic. We sometimes awake disoriented exclaiming "Thank God it was only a dream."

If you truly believed you were experiencing a dream and based on your lifelong familiarity with the dream state what kinds of acts would you be capable of if you were convinced that you would at some point wake up and all would be forgiven and forgotten?

My point isn't an effort to excuse Covenant's treatment of Lena but it seems to me that until the Land and it's people gradually became more real and substantial to Covenant, he knew and was firmly convinced that he would eventually wake up as I'm sure he'd done thousands of times before.

Sooner or later a transformation began to take place for Covenant. Over time THIS dream asserted its self beyond his experience. It was too real. It was too lengthy, never ending. Too complex. Too emotional to be any ordinary dream. And with his changing perceptions Covenant began to feel the full impact of what he had done. His act of rage and violation wasn't committed against a phantom of his imagination but rather it was a crime against a flesh and blood innocent that had idolized and adored him.

What we would do under those same circumstances would undoubtedly be far different. Most of us aren't so physically and emotionally scarred. Maybe we'd cope maybe we wouldn't. We read the book thinking "I'd never do something like that! How despicable!" but even though our experience in TC's shoes would take on an entirely different direction I suspect there would be many things/acts we would enact that would be wholly outside of our normal behavior. Simply because we were absolutely convinced that we were dreaming. At least for a time.

[Rocksister]

Wow, great question. I never thought about this in that way. Covenant was like a leaf in a creek; wherever it took him, he just went along for the ride and let it flow. If he knew for a fact that he was dreaming and would wake up and all of it be gone, why didn't he just sock everyone that annoyed him in the nose and get in a fist fight at every corner? Why the methodical planning to travel to find Foul at all? If it's just a dream, no one is going to suffer, right? So go for the gusto while you are there. It was because of the person his circumstances caused him to be that kept him from doing just that. As I said in some other posts, he was kind of a wuss already. He didn't like what Joan named Roger, but apparently didn't protest. She chose the white gold ring for him;remember it was HER preference. And she told him she was leaving to visit her parents to make him start writing again . His response? That she was right. When she said she was taking Roger and leaving for good, his response was something like, "of course." So yes, it's only proper for him to be like the leaf in the creek. It's how he lived his whole life up until that point. Just letting things fall where they may and not protesting. I think that made him look weak in Foul's eyes, but he had a dangerous quiescent strength that Foul didn't know anything about. The Creator did though.

[rdhopeca]

When's the last time you had a dream and had conscious control of your actions? The other night I had this wack dream where I was the new star power forward for the Phoenix Suns but no one would tell me where the locker room was and I kept getting lost over and over and over no matter how many people I asked and was late to my first game.

Now without analyzing this dream, I can tell you that if I had been able to control my actions I would have done things a lot differently...so it's hard to tell what I would have done if I had woken up in the land, because it would have been too real to be a dream in some sense...

[aTOMiC]

When's the last time you had a dream and had conscious control of your actions? The other night I had this wack dream where I was the new star power forward for the Phoenix Suns but no one would tell me where the locker room was and I kept getting lost over and over and over no matter how many people I asked and was late to my first game.

Now without analyzing this dream, I can tell you that if I had been able to control my actions I would have done things a lot differently...so it's hard to tell what I would have done if I had woken up in the land, because it would have been too real to be a dream in some sense...

I had considered such things because I agree with you.

However I also tried to imagine waking up in the Land without the familiarity I posses thanks to reading books like the Chronicles. If I had absolutely no background or interest in the Twilight Zone or Star Trek or Fantasy or Science fiction I wouldn't be very accepting of a translation to the Land.
Honestly, based on what we all know to be true and factual in the world we live in, what other answer is there except a dreamstate of some kind. I've never been in a coma. If I believed I'd just been hit by a car I could easily conclude that the "realness" of this particular delusion is different than other dreams because I know a coma is beyond my experience. I have no idea how my brain reacts to such a state. Therefore I could easily conclude what I was experiencing was not truly real and would behave accordingly.

[Auleliel]

I often do control what happens in dreams, or at least believe that I am controlling what I'm doing in the dream. I think I would take full advantage of an awesome dream at first, but then as I gradually realized that it was too long/complex/etc. to be a real dream (that bit might take a while though as I've had some epic dreams) I probably would freak out, temporarily go insane, come back to myself, and realize that if I've already been able to do X, Y, and Z (during the kicka$$ part), then I could probably continue to do so. I think.

[AjK]

Although I voted "go with the flow like TC" I have to qualify it:

Although I would have gone with the flow if I thought I was dreaming I don't think I would have made the same choices he did. The biggest and most obvious example is that I wouldn't rape someone just because it was a dream. I am not claiming to be better than anyone else but my morals & ethics pretty much carry over into my dreams. (Does that make me mentally boring? ) This is true even when I do not realize that I am dreaming (which is most of the time.) Is violating one's morals an integral part of the escapist quality of dreams? A chance to explore your darker side without fear of consequence?

When's the last time you had a dream and had conscious control of your actions?

Did you know that you were dreaming and still not have control, rdhopeca? That would be a strange feeling indeed. And if dreams come from your own mind (albeit your subconscious), do you really not have control even when you consciously don't know that you are dreaming? Rats, I just gave myself a headache. I need a nap...

[lurch]

Whoa there!..Is there not a male amongst us who has never had a " wet" dream? Of course wet dreams are not rapes or at least almost all are not rapes,,but,,ask the real live person who you had sex with in a dream..about how they feel having sex with you in your dream, and you mite hear something close to rape...Thats why males don't tell about their wet dreams. Whats my point? That Donaldson intentionally blurs the distinction between " reality" and the dream world to the point of them being the same,,Thus a 3rd reality is sought and eventually discovered..the reality of Truth.

Any body that goes after Donaldson for authoring a story about a Rapist,,really should stick with the comic books. TC as a pariah,an outcast both in reality and in his own mind while in the Land..is the point. Please dont forget that the author was a conscientious objector to the Vietnam War. In Real Life The Author As A Young Man Was A Pariah. The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant are a Metaphor of that experience and all that ensues in a life time once a person makes that kind of choice.

Is there any excuse for raping a young woman in a dream state? Is there any excuse for not rising to defend ones country when the call to arms is sounded to defend the country. What is real and what is fantasy is interestingly explored in both questions.

[deer of the dawn]

When's the last time you had a dream and had conscious control of your actions? The other night I had this wack dream where I was the new star power forward for the Phoenix Suns but no one would tell me where the locker room was and I kept getting lost over and over and over no matter how many people I asked and was late to my first game.

Now without analyzing this dream, I can tell you that if I had been able to control my actions I would have done things a lot differently...so it's hard to tell what I would have done if I had woken up in the land, because it would have been too real to be a dream in some sense...

I find that feeling out of control or absurd is the most common dream theme.

Going back to the original question--

HOW WOULD YOU ACT IF YOU TRULY THOUGHT YOU WERE DREAMING?

I find that on the rare occasion when i KNOW I'm dreaming ("lucid dreaming") I act just the way I would act in real life. I guess that's because I believe that your thought life is as real and important as your actions. If I commit adultery in my dream, I am guilty. So, my dear Covenant, even if you WERE dreaming, you still raped.

Occasionally I have become aware that I am dreaming while in the act of doing something I wouldn't do in real life (like making out with a guy I haven't seen since college, or some such). I go, Yikes!! Anybody had that experience?

[Relayer]

I've never had a lucid dream (yet)... though I've tried to work on learning how to.

But many cultures feel as you do Deer, that the "dream world" is just as real as the "waking world." Or to put it another way, that what we call "reality" is actually a "waking dream."

[Rocksister]

Rock on, Lurch. How WOULD you control what you dream? If we could do that, I can assure you that the monsters that chased me never would have caught me, or the door would not have been shut in my face by my friends when I was trying to save myself, or I would have prolonged that marvelous, uh, earth-shaking feeling when the pirate captured me and took me to an island. (That one sounds like a bad dream, but it was actually one of the best. I was thinking about Johnny Depp.) So in choosing to go along with everything, wasn't he still making a choice? I'm getting a headache, too, and I'm lying down right about now.

[deer of the dawn]

I was thinking about Johnny Depp.

Hopefully, he brushed his teeth.

[AjK]

I was thinking about Johnny Depp.

Hopefully, he brushed his teeth.

Thank goodness my step-daughters have moved on past their crush on that guy. I had had enough.

[Brother Charn]

I will attempt not to over-analyzing this question (as is my wont ) - since (except for recently) I have a long history of lucid dreams where I realize I am in a dream state and start to play with things....

If I ended up in the Land and was certain it was a dream, I'd quickly launch into some serious WG a$$-kicking... though if the dream goes on as long as any one of those books.... I might doubt it is a dream and freak out.

The problem is, knowing me and how I dream, I'd probably show up in the land as ME, i.e., without TC's white gold, without even a pen-knife... so I'd have exactly jack to use to undertake the afore-mentioned a$$-kicking. This would be true despite the fact that my wedding ring is made of white gold - because I really am that sort of SRD-geek.

[Blackhawk]

Ive always been able to control what i do in a dream as far as my actions ..that I can recall, but I have never been able to control the way the landscapes looked or blending from one to another... and i have unfortunately never had a Land based dream.

I was halfway between kicking ass and doing what TC did (Minus the rape and ability to believe... I would have come around alot sooner (belief of the land or not) to help the lords......

and probably would have ended up like Hile Troy.

[wayfriend]

Are people really aware that they're in a dream, or are they dreaming that they are aware that they're in a dream?

[AjK]

Are people really aware that they're in a dream, or are they dreaming that they are aware that they're in a dream?

I remember as a young child having a dream in which I was so convinced that I knew that I was dreaming that (in my dream) I said to myself "I am going to ask my mom about this when I wake up" (meaning get her to confirm that I was indeed dreaming.)

[Zarathustra]

If I *knew* it was a dream, then I'd do whatever I wanted. Explore my dark side? Why not? There are no consequences to anyone else but me, and in the process I might learn something about myself. It's not much different from choosing to watch a movie where people are getting slaughtered, or choosing to read a book where young girls get raped. It doesn't make you a bad person to entertain a fantasy. What do you think Donaldson is doing by writing these books in the first place? He's exploring the dark side of human nature in a way that hurts no one (and has in fact helped and inspired millions because he made his "dreams" public). Nothing wrong with that.

This is entirely different from TC's dilemma, because SRD explicitly presented Covenant's dilemma as one of *not* knowing if it was real. And he did this for intentional, metaphorical reasons. It has nothing to do with our own dream life--it's more a comment on our waking life. I'm sure that his point wasn't to make us all feel guilty for the contents of our dreams. We've all done things in our dreams we wouldn't do in real life--and that's even without knowing it was a dream, which is infinitely worse than the question posed in this thread. Also, we choose to read books or watch movies that are even worse than things we've done in our dreams (maybe ... ).

Covenant is not a typical healthy well adjusted person. His mental and emotional well being has been irrevocably compromised by his illness, his divorce and the fact of being ostracized by the community at large.

I must take issue with this point. I don't think TC is the exception to the human race. I think he is a model for it. If Covenant has no resemblance to the rest of us, then what's the point of reading his story? Donaldson is exploring what it means to be human, not what it means to be different from most humans. I emphatically believe that Covenant was meant to express a condition common to us all. Sure, that condition is exaggerated for dramatic purposes, just as Lord Foul himself is an exaggeration. But Covenant is the existential crisis we all face. Some of us face it directly, some of us turn away from it (as Covenant himself did at the beginning).

Covenant's illness acts as a catalyst for the existential crisis, making it stronger and more explicit, but it's still something we all must confront. That crisis is: a realization of our mortality, a realization of our own responsibility for our lives, a confrontation with our own freewill (whether we will use it to be authentic, or if we will bottle it up in fear), a feeling of alienation from others, an epiphany of the meaninglessness in things we thought were important (whether that's our previous life-work or the world in general), and then finally the realization that we make/choose our own meaning (whether that meaning is one we create ourselves, or borrow from ancient traditions).

This is the human condition. If you haven't felt it yet, haven't confronted it with fear and trembling, then you've merely been lucky for a while . . . or perhaps blissfully inattentive (which is really just another way of dealing with it).

Covenant is no different from us--he has merely been awakened to the human condition.

[rusmeister]

I think the real question here comes down to: "Do thoughts have an impact on reality?" "Is it OK to think bad thoughts as long as nobody knows?"
If we could make any choices in our dreams with any degree of conscious control (something I am not so sure of) they would likely reflect what we allow our mind to do consciously when we are awake.

Now one thing is certain, entertaining bad thoughts IS the first step toward enacting them, in or out of dreams. Evil acts are most often preceded by thinking about them. If we always suppressed evil thoughts, it would be harder for them to be enacted, let alone spread via copy-cat actions or whatever. Many of the ills of our society are, to a significant degree, due to the fact that we have essentially said that it IS OK to think bad things, and even depict them, as long as they are not "real". But they ARE enacted into reality by the people that watch them, take the ideas and go with them. That is not to say that there would be none of that type of evil if we were to seriously control/limit the depiction of evil, but it certainly would not have the outlet it now has.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that even thinking evil has consequences. Need I even point to Christ's shocking statement (now forgotten in today's world) that if a man looks at a woman to fantasize about her, he has already committed adultery with her in his heart (and vice-versa, ladies!)? So much for pornography and most depictions of the sex act. And it should be clear that this has implications everywhere, not only in sex. (The Columbine Massacre comes to mind.)

Even a die-hard skeptic must acknowledge that stopping the thought will seriously impede the likelihood of its being enacted. Most evils would never even occur to people if we nipped them in the bud. In the ideal, you would have...heaven on earth.

[AjK]

I think the real question here comes down to: "Do thoughts have an impact on reality?" ... (snip) ... Even a die-hard skeptic must acknowledge that stopping the thought will seriously impede the likelihood of its being enacted. Most evils would never even occur to people if we nipped them in the bud.

I am quite torn on this. I was raised in a way that stressed the value of the discipline that rusmeister describes. However, Malik's points are quite valid in that to grow as a person one must understand your human potential (both good and bad.) If my memory serves, a term used in the psychology literature is "integrate your evil". (Don't quote me on that one, LOL.)

If you look at this from the perspective of conscious and subconscious mind, conscious actions repeated over time will influence your subconscious. But in my layman's understanding you still have to watch out for repression. Having been raised Catholic one story that really made me sad was one I heard from a nursing home worker. This person worked in a facilty that took care of older Catholic nuns, the majority of whom had degraded mental faculties due to things like Alzheimers and senility.

As they lost a lot of their ability to consciously control their minds, things that they had repressed for decades came freely to the surface and out. If a male so much as walked through the facility they would shout out all kinds of sexual offers and suggestions. I use this example not to single out or judge a specific set of individuals but simply as an example to illustrate a point. (I hold no grudges just because they used to take a ruler to the back of my hands in grade school. )

So my question isn't so much as to whether or not to explore one's darker side. Rather it is a question of why you are doing it.

[deer of the dawn]

I think the real question here comes down to: "Do thoughts have an impact on reality?" ... (snip) ... Even a die-hard skeptic must acknowledge that stopping the thought will seriously impede the likelihood of its being enacted. Most evils would never even occur to people if we nipped them in the bud.

I am quite torn on this. I was raised in a way that stressed the value of the discipline that rusmeister describes. However, Malik's points are quite valid in that to grow as a person one must understand your human potential (both good and bad.) If my memory serves, a term used in the psychology literature is "integrate your evil". (Don't quote me on that one, LOL.)

If you look at this from the perspective of conscious and subconscious mind, conscious actions repeated over time will influence your subconscious. But in my layman's understanding you still have to watch out for repression. Having been raised Catholic one story that really made me sad was one I heard from a nursing home worker. This person worked in a facilty that took care of older Catholic nuns, the majority of whom had degraded mental faculties due to things like Alzheimers and senility.

As they lost a lot of their ability to consciously control their minds, things that they had repressed for decades came freely to the surface and out. If a male so much as walked through the facility they would shout out all kinds of sexual offers and suggestions. I use this example not to single out or judge a specific set of individuals but simply as an example to illustrate a point. (I hold no grudges just because they used to take a ruler to the back of my hands in grade school. )

So my question isn't so much as to whether or not to explore one's darker side. Rather it is a question of why you are doing it.

We do it because it is in our nature to do it. Those nuns were simply acting out what honestly is in the darker closets of all our minds. However, even with our inmost thoughts, we are presented with choices.

To act, or not act? If I lust after my friend's husband, obviously the choice is not to act. But beyond that, to entertain lust or to deny those thoughts?

I believe with Rusmeister that there are eventually consequences to pay for our thoughts. If I allow my lust for another's man to flourish in my heart and mind, sooner or later it's going to show. I might flatter myself that it doesn't hurt anyone, that after all I'm not acting on it, etc but I speak from experience that the inner adulteress is a harsh mistress.

Had those nuns acted on those denied impulses over the decades of their lives, think of the hell their lives would have been, for them and everyone else. Now they've lost their inhibitions, should we say that they were rotten all along? Rather, I admire them for living with those passions and managing for all those years to temper them in other directions. And even if some of them acted on those lusts now and again, well, nuns are after all only human. That's what forgiveness is for.