Income inequality

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Wosbald
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Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
SoulBiter wrote:
Wosbald wrote:Maybe the problem with "human nature" -- rather than being Labor's compulsion to steal away with unearned pay -- is actually Capital's determination to make off with unearned work.

Ya know, sauce for the goose and all that.
Can you be more clear on that as it pertains to the impact of minimum wage increases?
You're the one who apparently appealed to some sort of deterministic flaw in human nature.

I'm simply pointing out that your argument can be easily stood on its head because said flaw could just as well be posited on the side of Capital and not that of Labor.


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Post by SoulBiter »

Wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
SoulBiter wrote:
Wosbald wrote:Maybe the problem with "human nature" -- rather than being Labor's compulsion to steal away with unearned pay -- is actually Capital's determination to make off with unearned work.

Ya know, sauce for the goose and all that.
Can you be more clear on that as it pertains to the impact of minimum wage increases?
You're the one who apparently appealed to some sort of deterministic flaw in human nature.

I'm simply pointing out that your argument can be easily stood on its head because said flaw could just as well be posited on the side of Capital and not that of Labor.
Wos... that was not even close to being a rebuttal nor is it turning upside down what I said about human nature.
It is human nature to want to get ahead. If I as a worker make X dollars and those below me that are lesser skilled get a raise that makes my pay seem more unfair, then I lobby the business to raise my pay as well. If they cant or wont do so, then my options are to accept as is and look elsewhere, or to quit and look elsewhere. None of that says the employee is trying to steal away unearned pay so there is no counter that its the Capitals determination to make off with unearned work. I don't know where you got that from, but thanks for playing.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

The only way for an employer to "steal" work is to somehow force employees to work off the clock. When this happens from time to time--and it does happen--the result is usually a lawsuit and then the employer has to pay those hours anyway, plus the extra money awarded from the lawsuit.
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Post by Rawedge Rim »

Avatar wrote:
ur-Nanothnir wrote:Also what do you guys think about minimum basic income (MBI) in the near-to-medium-term-future when automation takes over most jobs?
From what I've seen, the experiments they've done with is so far have not gone well. They haven't gone badly, but they did not have the outcome that was expected I think.
Rawedge Rim wrote:So you believe that that some person who just got hired to sweep the sidewalk off with a straw broom should make just as much an hour as a person who went to school for over a year for a skilled trade, spent 2 years in an apprentiship program before being considered qualified, and has been on the job for over 5 years? Really?
No, but that's not what is happening. Surely somebody with that much qualification and experience would be making enough over minimum wage that increasing it will not affect them?

What I'm saying is that if you are working somewhere, and feel that you are being under-paid, (compared to others or not) isn't the accepted wisdom that you should be looking for a new job?

--A
let's try it this way; I've done my school and my "apprentiship" (trial period, whatever you want to call it) and now I make twice what the unskilled person walking in off the street does bringing me raw material to work with.

Now the government states that this same unskilled person, who doesn't have enough skill to be qualified to do anything to but bring me raw material to work with, who hasn't put in the time or the money to do better, now should be paid the same as I do, thus decreasing the monetary value of my work by 50%. I might as well have saved the effort and money and just moved raw materials.
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Post by Lazy Luke »

I think you need a vacation.
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Post by [Syl] »

Real communists would say that this is part of the problem. By monetizing your value, you're separating the meaning of work from the value. You should learn new skills to better enjoy your trade and contribution (or possibly to decrease your effort required, allowing you to pursue goals outside of work), not to 'make more money.' By doing so, it not only makes money the object, it also separates you from your fellow worker, without whom you couldn't do your job. The wedge of money drives you apart in multiple ways, allowing those with whom you have less in common than the unskilled worker to increase their share at your expense.
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Post by [Syl] »

For my part, I've worked in tech for the most part of 17 years--4 years in the Navy, 3 years and change at one semiconductor company, a bit more than 7 at another, with some college for personal fulfillment in between. I know my job better than most other techs, know some of their jobs better than they do. We make the same. *shrug* Them making any less wouldn't help me. Nor would I have a problem if all operators (largely unskilled) got a raise tomorrow to what I make (considerably above minimum wage).
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Post by SoulBiter »

Like I said above. I have seen this in action. Within hours of the announcement of raising the lowest pay to $12, I had members of my team (those that worked for me directly and indirectly) sitting in my office explaining to me that it wasn't fair that people with no experience were getting a significant raise and people who had put in the time and were experienced were not getting a raise.
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Post by Avatar »

Zero-sum thinking.

Not saying it wouldn't happen...it clearly would since you've experienced it yourself. Doesn't make it right though.

::shrug:: I live in the most unequal country in the world. Sometimes the people with the least have to be helped without having to give more to the people who are getting along alright.

Maybe, when the people who are doing badly right now are doing better, there might be some sort of net benefit to society or something...you never know... :D

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Post by SoulBiter »

Avatar wrote:Zero-sum thinking.

Not saying it wouldn't happen...it clearly would since you've experienced it yourself. Doesn't make it right though.

--A
Its saying that pay should be commiserate with training and experience. If its not then the person is not being paid fairly or we are dipping into the water of socialism.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Here's the problem: why not just make minimum wage $200,000 per year?

Answer that, and you'll have the answer for any min wage increase whatsoever. It just makes it easier to see. If it's ludicrous to pay people who perform unskilled, menial labor the same as doctors, then it's also ludicrous to pay people for menial labor the same as any other position on the pay scale above menial labor. The same exact logic works. You don't just arbitrarily raise someone's pay because they don't like their pay. If it's not connected to the value of their labor--relative to all other labor--then it's utterly meaningless and you might as well make it $200,000, because you have no argument against $200,000 . . . except the same exact argument others are making here against $15/hr.
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Post by Avatar »

Purely on scale, I don't think it's necessarily equivalent. In fact, it's a bit reductio et absurdum isn't it?

Why not look at it as the value of manual labour having increased a bit?

--A
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Avatar wrote:Why not look at it as the value of manual labour having increased a bit?

--A
The problem, though, is that the value of manual labor has not increased. Why should someone, whether citizen or immigrant waiting to become a citizen, be paid $12 per hour for working on a house when a new, possibly illegal, immigrant showed up yesterday and is willing to work for $9 per hour? You might think your manual labor is worth $12 but if none of the crews will hire you because people are working for $9 then the value of your labor needs to become $9.
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Post by Rawedge Rim »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Avatar wrote:Why not look at it as the value of manual labour having increased a bit?

--A
The problem, though, is that the value of manual labor has not increased. Why should someone, whether citizen or immigrant waiting to become a citizen, be paid $12 per hour for working on a house when a new, possibly illegal, immigrant showed up yesterday and is willing to work for $9 per hour? You might think your manual labor is worth $12 but if none of the crews will hire you because people are working for $9 then the value of your labor needs to become $9.
Precisely. There are only a certain number of doctors, machinist, mechanics, etc., and therefore thier labor is worth a certain amount. There is no shortage of people who can only do unskilled manual labor, therefore thier "labor" while necessary, is worth less. And if you import even cheaper labor, it becomes worth even less.

Same works in the skilled fields when you import cheaper skilled labor from India and such:
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Post by Zarathustra »

Avatar wrote:Purely on scale, I don't think it's necessarily equivalent. In fact, it's a bit reductio et absurdum isn't it?

Why not look at it as the value of manual labour having increased a bit?

--A
Did it increase? How do you know? What made it more valuable? How do you know it didn't decrease (as one would expect with increasing automation)?

One way you can tell if the value of something hasn't increased is if the government has to force people to pay more for it. If the value has truly increased, people will pay more on their own. That's what value means. It's defined by those who are willing (key word, not forced) to pay for it. The government doesn't define what is valuable for me.

Seriously, that should be like a right or something. I define value, not the government.
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Post by Avatar »

If you define value, then surely so does every one of those minimum wage workers?

If they have decided that they are going to charge more for their work, then hasn't its value (to them) changed?

(Admittedly, to the employer, the cost has changed, not necessarily the value, but if they value their own labour more than what is on offer, isn't it effectively the same?)

As for the government ordering it, why are they doing so in the first place? Because enough the people they represent want it changed?

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Post by SoulBiter »

The 'value' of the work is defined by supply and demand for the work being done. Only 2.3% of hourly workers earn the minimum wage, so less if we included all workers. In most areas you cant find someone to do a low skill job for less than $11 per hour.

So based on that knowledge, let supply and demand figure this out. There are more jobs than actively looking workers to fill those jobs. That by itself is raising wages. Real hourly wages have been on the rise. At this time it looks like that trend will continue.
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Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
Avatar wrote:If you define value, then surely so does every one of those minimum wage workers?

[...]
Ohhh! Boom goes the dynamite!

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Post by Zarathustra »

Wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
Avatar wrote:If you define value, then surely so does every one of those minimum wage workers?

[...]
Ohhh! Boom goes the dynamite!

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The person paying defines the value. If someone is not willing to pay for something, whether it is a good or sevice, then others can pretend all day long it is worth more, it makes no difference . . . unless the government intervenes with force, subverting freewill/free markets. But even that is ultimately checked by the market (which is why you can't make min wage anything you want, like $200,000).

Of course, if the person making min wage refuses to accept the valuation of their labor by others, instead of using government force to make people adopt opinions they don't believe (e.g. the value of things), they could simply work elsewhere, or gain new skills to make themselves more valuable to their fellow man.

Ultimately, this is always in the hands of individuals, because once the employer raises prices to cover his increase in cost from the government's artificial manipulation of the value of labor, then the customers will decide by the valuation of the goods/services whether to keep purchasing. The end result will likely be fewer minimum wage job positions available.

So it won't matter in the least whether the unskilled worker thinks he's worth more or not. It's literally not his decision to make.

Surely you guys know this? You didn't really think that "I define value" means that we all get to write our own paychecks for whatever we want, did you? I'm not sure what you gain by this pretense. But Wosbald seems to be having fun. Good for you, guy! Making your OWN sentences is fun, isn't it? You should try it more. You'll get the hang of it :lol:
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Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
Zarathustra wrote:
Wosbald wrote:
Avatar wrote:If you define value, then surely so does every one of those minimum wage workers?

[...]
Ohhh! Boom goes the dynamite!

Image
The person paying defines the value. ...

[...]
So, not only do you get to define "value", you get to define "defining value"?

That's a neat trick!


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