Income inequality

[Avatar]

But you don't actually lose anything. It's not as if that extra was going to come out of your pay. It's not a zero-sum game.

If he's doing a less skilled job, and getting paid less for it, that's on him.

If somebody else chooses to go for a lower skilled job and accept the lower pay, likewise.

I mean, I get that it makes you feel like your skill is valued less, but it's a perceptual thing surely...you're still getting paid more with higher skills, all that happens is that the disparity reduces.

Doesn't / wouldn't bother me, as long as that other person is still providing value to the employer.

--A

[SoulBiter]

But you don't actually lose anything. It's not as if that extra was going to come out of your pay. It's not a zero-sum game.

If he's doing a less skilled job, and getting paid less for it, that's on him.

If somebody else chooses to go for a lower skilled job and accept the lower pay, likewise.

I mean, I get that it makes you feel like your skill is valued less, but it's a perceptual thing surely...you're still getting paid more with higher skills, all that happens is that the disparity reduces.

Doesn't / wouldn't bother me, as long as that other person is still providing value to the employer.

--A

You are ignoring not just human nature but also labor economics.

RR made this point above...but to re-iterate. Lets say that you went to school to learn how to make complicated adjustments to widgets, and that cost you two years of apprenticeship and specialized training to make $25 per hour.

But now they the person who delivers widgets to you from the warehouse floor, which requires no education and is entry level, now makes $25 per hour as well.

Because people can now make the same money without the training, no one goes through the training anymore. The business finds itself losing widget adjusters and has to increase the pay of widget adjusters to keep the talent they have as well as to entice new talent in the front door.

It all goes back to the fact that the amount paid is based on the supply and demand for the position. The Supply is based on the number of people who decide they want to do that work and have the skill to do so. When you start messing with the scale there is a domino effect that occurs with pay. Some of that is human nature of making sure they make the most for doing the least.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I don't have anything against wealthy people--there will always be many people who are financially better off than I am by a significant margin--but this is just bullshit: a legal loophole is allowing wealthy families to transfer legal guardianship of their teenagers to family or friends who are not wealthy, thus allowing the student to qualify for more financial aid programs. If you are already wealthy then just pay the damned tuition--you can afford it.

[Gaius Octavius]

Well, wealthy kids can live off food stamps and free healthcare in college if they're savvy enough. Hint: Have all your tuition paid for and don't work a job, then you have zero income.

[Avatar]

But now they the person who delivers widgets to you from the warehouse floor, which requires no education and is entry level, now makes $25 per hour as well.

But he won't, he'll be making $15 an hour. Surely, by reasoning that I have often heard suggested here, if the person making the $25 an hour feels that he deserves to have a greater gap between his pay, and the entry level pay, he needs to up-skill himself and find a job that pays even more?

I don't have anything against wealthy people--there will always be many people who are financially better off than I am by a significant margin--but this is just bullshit: a legal loophole is allowing wealthy families to transfer legal guardianship of their teenagers to family or friends who are not wealthy, thus allowing the student to qualify for more financial aid programs. If you are already wealthy then just pay the damned tuition--you can afford it.

Uh, you don't get rich by paying for stuff.

--A

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Uh, you don't get rich by paying for stuff.

--A

The vast majority of people who are wealthy got that way because their parents were wealthy. The other people--like my own grandmother--had a fortunate circumstance...not that I should my grandfather's untimely death "fortunate", but it was definitely good for her.

[SoulBiter]

But now they the person who delivers widgets to you from the warehouse floor, which requires no education and is entry level, now makes $25 per hour as well.

But he won't, he'll be making $15 an hour. Surely, by reasoning that I have often heard suggested here, if the person making the $25 an hour feels that he deserves to have a greater gap between his pay, and the entry level pay, he needs to up-skill himself and find a job that pays even more?


--A

It wont matter what that number is. I live in the real world where people live. I have seen this in action. Where I work, about 5 or so years ago, they made our companies minimum wage $12. That is the lowest pay and that would be for entry level non skilled. Over the next year because of the outcry from those that were making that or close to that prior to the change, we had to raise pay for ALL hourly workers or risk not being able to retain our skilled workers.

[SoulBiter]

Wage growth is up again. Seems the Trump economy isn't leaving everyone behind.

Wage growth is up again.

Wages for U.S. workers grew 4.0 percent over the last year, increasing the average wage level by $1.09 to $28.54 an hour, according to the ADP Research Institute

Interesting!!!

businesses are holding on to their skilled workers by increasing their wages. Female job holders are capturing larger wage gains than their male counterparts.

also linked below (follow the link) a chart that shows employment and wage growth.
workforcereport.adp.com/

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I am an exception to the rule--I am currently not earning the pay that someone with my skill set and experience should be earning. I still feel the knife in my back and it was 7 months ago. Anyway, my job search is ramping up so perhaps it will bear fruit before the holiday season.

[Avatar]

It wont matter what that number is. I live in the real world where people live. I have seen this in action. Where I work, about 5 or so years ago, they made our companies minimum wage $12. That is the lowest pay and that would be for entry level non skilled. Over the next year because of the outcry from those that were making that or close to that prior to the change, we had to raise pay for ALL hourly workers or risk not being able to retain our skilled workers.

Fair enough, but aren't those two different issues?

If your workers can get more by going elsewhere, isn't that what they should do? That's like market forces at work or something.

--A

[Zarathustra]

If you work for min wage, you're a dumbass. Chick-fil-a is hiring teens at $13/hr. I don't even know a job that pays min wage anymore. This is simply not an issue.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

If you work for min wage, you're a dumbass. Chick-fil-a is hiring teens at $13/hr. I don't even know a job that pays min wage anymore. This is simply not an issue.

So is Target. So does the Buccees going north on I-35 towards Denton. Jobs at an Amazon processing center about 1 mile from my current location offers $12.50 for warehouse work.

I am certain that the last two or three times we really got into the topic it was noted that only 2% or 3% of *all* employees work in minimum-wage positions.

[samrw3]

I am certain that the last two or three times we really got into the topic it was noted that only 2% or 3% of *all* employees work in minimum-wage positions.

Also it should be noted that of this 2-3% the "true" percentage is further diluted by workers who accept minimal wage but expect better wages off tips and/or commissions. Thus people like delivery drivers, waiters/waitresses, certain sales jobs, etc.. Once upon a time in my first marriage roughly 25 years ago I took a minimum wage delivery driver position as a part time supplemental income knowing I would make more money off tips. I could make more money in one night off tips then I would have made in a whole weekend working some retail shift.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

The ex-wife, Bellerog, from back before I became Hashi Lebwohl, was always glad to work Friday and Saturday nights part-time at an all-night diner because she made more than enough in tips to cover gas and groceries for the coming week.

[Rawedge Rim]

It wont matter what that number is. I live in the real world where people live. I have seen this in action. Where I work, about 5 or so years ago, they made our companies minimum wage $12. That is the lowest pay and that would be for entry level non skilled. Over the next year because of the outcry from those that were making that or close to that prior to the change, we had to raise pay for ALL hourly workers or risk not being able to retain our skilled workers.

Fair enough, but aren't those two different issues?

If your workers can get more by going elsewhere, isn't that what they should do? That's like market forces at work or something.

--A

So you believe that that some person who just got hired to sweep the sidewalk off with a straw broom should make just as much an hour as a person who went to school for over a year for a skilled trade, spent 2 years in an apprentiship program before being considered qualified, and has been on the job for over 5 years? Really?

[Gaius Octavius]

Wouldn't the small % of people in minimum wage positions (excluding tipped minimum wage) support the idea of increasing the minimum wage, though?

Also what do you guys think about minimum basic income (MBI) in the near-to-medium-term-future when automation takes over most jobs?

[Avatar]

Also what do you guys think about minimum basic income (MBI) in the near-to-medium-term-future when automation takes over most jobs?

From what I've seen, the experiments they've done with is so far have not gone well. They haven't gone badly, but they did not have the outcome that was expected I think.

So you believe that that some person who just got hired to sweep the sidewalk off with a straw broom should make just as much an hour as a person who went to school for over a year for a skilled trade, spent 2 years in an apprentiship program before being considered qualified, and has been on the job for over 5 years? Really?

No, but that's not what is happening. Surely somebody with that much qualification and experience would be making enough over minimum wage that increasing it will not affect them?

What I'm saying is that if you are working somewhere, and feel that you are being under-paid, (compared to others or not) isn't the accepted wisdom that you should be looking for a new job?

--A

[SoulBiter]

Av, this shows you dont understand labor economics or human nature. What people should do and what happens in reality are very different.

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

Av, this shows you dont understand labor economics or human nature. What people should do and what happens in reality are very different.

Maybe the problem with "human nature" -- rather than being Labor's compulsion to steal away with unearned pay -- is actually Capital's determination to make off with unearned work.

Ya know, sauce for the goose and all that.

[SoulBiter]

+JMJ+

Maybe the problem with "human nature" -- rather than being Labor's compulsion to steal away with unearned pay -- is actually Capital's determination to make off with unearned work.

Ya know, sauce for the goose and all that.

Can you be more clear on that as it pertains to the impact of minimum wage increases?