The problem with the Elohim

[deer of the dawn]

...is that their whole "appointment" thingy is not working out very well. First of all, no one wants to do it. (Well, to be fair we don't know what the one who became the Colossus of the Fall thought.) Findail does all he can to get out of it ("doom", he calls it). Kastenessen eventually does get out of it, and goes on a rampage. So despite their attitude, they must be getting embarassed by now. They say it is their Wurd, so what is the basic flaw in their Wurd?

[dlbpharmd]

The basic flaw in the Wurd of the Elohim is that they believe they are the equal to all things.

[lurch]

Yea...I've always seen the Elohim as the Hoot Snooty of the Land..we don't have to get involved,,just sit back and watch it all and every now and then interject ourselves as we sip tea with our pinkies in the air. As dphmn put it..they see themselves equal to all things..another way of saying,,conceit. So, when they have to lower themselves, of course it goes against their grain.

They are not equal to all things. Linden is, as well as TC did,,is scaring the poop out of them. In other words,,they are not equal to or above, their own fears. Such is conceit.

[wayfriend]

Donaldson refers several times to arrogance of the Elohim as "surquedry". Overweening pride. Presumption. Even insolence. The Elohim assume so much about what they can do that they miss things and make mistakes.

One of the most telling things about the Elohim happened when we first met them. The had forseen that the Sun-Sage and the ring weilder would be one. But when confronted with the evidence of their error, they dismissed it, saying that the earth itself cannot be wrong.

I liken the limitations of the Elohim to those of the Earthblood: they aren't built to handle anything that's not a natural part of the Earth. They cannot really handle Lord Foul, they weren't made with him in mind. Nor can they really understand Covenant and Linden, for the same reason. But they won't admit that. It'd be going against built-in, instinctual imperitives.

[Rigel]

Well, to be fair we don't know what the one who became the Colossus of the Fall thought.

I thought it said that her bondage into the Colossus was not part of her original Appointment, but rather that the forests took the knowledge they had acquired and used it to force her into the Colossus.

[dlbpharmd]

Well, to be fair we don't know what the one who became the Colossus of the Fall thought.

I thought it said that her bondage into the Colossus was not part of her original Appointment, but rather that the forests took the knowledge they had acquired and used it to force her into the Colossus.

That's how I understand it.

[wayfriend]

As for the failure of Kastenessen's Durance ...

On the one hand, one might say that their surquedry prevented them from seeing that Kastenessen might fight his appointment, or that Lord Foul could sway him to contravene the dictates of the Elohim, or that Kastenessen could ever become so insane.

On the other hand, if all Elohim share a common internal experience, then you have to ask, how could they not know that this could happen?

I think the answer lies in the fact that Kastenessen is "different" than the other Elohim. "He acted as one who had wandered into madness," Findail says. "To us he remained Elohim, not to be freed from his burden. But to him he was no longer of us, or of the Earth, but only of the woman he had lost. He became a madness among us."

Kastenessen went mad. And in doing so, stopped acting like an Elohim should. This was demonstrated by his taking of the mortal woman, an act that the Elohim repudiated. Doing so, he is demonstrating not only that he's not acting in accordance with all of the other Elohim, but that he is persuing desires which other Elohim do not share.

If such an act can occur, then the actions of breaking the Durance can also occur. If the one is allowed within the Elohim Würd, then so is the other.

One question remains, though. Did the Elohim know enough, through shared internal experience, to know that Kastenessen's Durance would not bind him forever?

To answer that, we have to ask: Do the Elohim oppose his breaking free?

We know that they oppose some of his more reckless actions. But that doesn't mean that they oppose his being free of the Durance. Perhaps this is part of their plan. Elohim plans are not always nice.

[Rigel]

I've wondered about that... Why don't the Elohim just bind him again, or in a new way?

Or, now that Linden's in the Land, do they simply expect her to solve all their problems?

[dlbpharmd]

Or, now that Linden's in the Land, do they simply expect her to solve all their problems?

Yup, that's how it goes with the Elohim.

[wayfriend]

Linden, or the Insequent, or (I expect) TC.

But I'm on the fence about that being a bad thing. I think that the Creator made them to have limits. I mean, if they were like humans, with that much power, they'd probably end up ruling the entire world directly. Given how little they think of mortals, that would not be good. (The Masters, on a larger scale.) Their if-someone-else-can rule seems to keep them from having too much influence on the world's affairs.

[shadowbinding shoe]

They don't want to rule (or be involved with) the world. It's their greatest fear. The first time one of them got involved in outside affairs she got emotionally tangled and let the One Forest bind her.

Since then they've been hiding in their island. Any time they think things are getting too bad not to interfere they believe the Colossus solution is the only possible solution. They've learned all the wrong things from the One Forest affair.

[deer of the dawn]

Or, now that Linden's in the Land, do they simply expect her to solve all their problems?

Yup, that's how it goes with the Elohim.

Actually, I thought they expected Linden to competely mess everything up. At least, that's what they say.

I dunno, everything in the Land seems somehow to be fatally flawed. Kind of like real life.

[lurch]

..everything in the Land seems somehow fatally flawed..

Yes!..the exaggerated circumstances of that which led to and transpired in the hollow,,continue in the Land. When taken to extreme,,exaggerated, the flaws of " how" one ends up in a " hollow" are made easier to perceive. Therefore, once perceived, the dealing with the Flaws becomes the arc. Changes ,,Real and Illusional, are worked thru.

[wayfriend]

Or, now that Linden's in the Land, do they simply expect her to solve all their problems?

Yup, that's how it goes with the Elohim.

Actually, I thought they expected Linden to competely mess everything up. At least, that's what they say.

That's the crazy part. They continually tell her what a screw-up she is, but all the while they lay in their lounge chairs and leave it to Linden to do the heavy lifting. Sort of like book critics.

As for fatal flaws ... well, SRD did say

After all, life necessitates death. Anything that lives carries within it the seeds of its own destruction. (And our own bodies demonstrate just how *many* seeds there can be.) The alternative is stasis. Indeed, anything that doesn't both grow and die (usually in that order) can't really be described as being alive. So if the Creator wanted to make a living world, he pretty much had to supply the means for the eventual ending of that world.
(04/29/2004)

So, fatal flaws are not so much a tragedy as they are a necessity.

The EElohim certainly seem to contain a fatal flaw in and of themselves.

[deer of the dawn]

That's the crazy part. They continually tell her what a screw-up she is, but all the while they lay in their lounge chairs and leave it to Linden to do the heavy lifting. Sort of like book critics.

Pretty much sums it up.
So what does that say about the Creator and the inherent flaws of the Land (or should I say, the Earth?? Isn't the Land only the part of it between the Sunbirth Sea and the Westron Mountains?? ) Was there an inherent arrogance in his creation that became part of the Elohim?