Pantheon - Discussions on the Future
Moderator: Xar
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variol son
- The Gap Into Spam
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- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 1:07 pm
- Location: New Zealand
So, I was in the shower last night getting ready to go to a friend's house warming party and I started thinking about P4, and more specifically, about the issue of cities and their ownership (yes Gillette, that's where I go when I close my eyes in the shower).
I agree very much with those who have posted previously about how the game becomes a little bit like a land-grab, and I thought that it could be cool if the map thread showed what proportion of a city-state's population worships each deity, rather than who owned each city.
For example, the map thread might show that in Random City, 30% of the populous worship Jeff, the God of Biscuits, 30% worship Simon, the God of Hairdos, 25% are unaligned and pray to whichever deity (not necessarily just Jeff or Simon) their mood and/or need dictates on any given day, and 15% are atheists and worship no deity.
This statistic could then affect the ease with which Jeff or Simon is able to influence events in a given city-state. So it might be easier to find your child of fate if he or she lives somewhere where you have more worshippers, and therefore more influence. Or it may be more effective to proselytise if you have high influence in a nearby city-state and less effective if you have little or no influence in a nearby city-state.
Then, as I was waiting for the taxi to pick me up to take me to the party, I realised that you could take this idea one step further and introduce apostates.
To follow on from the previous example, lets say Jeff and Simon have a falling out and Jeff decrees that Tim Tams (which are Simon's favourite) are no longer biscuits and so his followers may not eat them. This announcement isn't met with universal approval and half of his worshippers in Random City renounce their faith in him, with one-third of those becoming apostates and two-thirds simply becoming unaligned. This would leave the religious make-up of the city-state as follows:
Jeffites - 15%
Simonites - 30%
Unaligned - 35%
Atheists - 15%
Jeffite Apostates - 5%
Jeff's influence would (obviously) fall from 30% to 15% and the 10% of the total population that left him to become unaligned would have no further negative affect on him. However, the 5% of the total population that left him to become apostates would be a further disadvantage (at a modifier worked out by Xar I guess).
Then, this morning, as I was sitting on the couch with a hangover, I thought that you could take it one more step and have a (very) small group of highly influential individuals in each city-state (say a Civic Leader, a Military Leader, and a Philosopher). Having the (likely unnamed) holder of one of these positions convert to your worship could provide an influence bonus in that city-state.
So (to continue flogging a dead horse
) if Random City's local Philosopher becomes a follower of Simon after the local Simonite priest helps wash and trim his unruly hair and beard, then Simon would gain extra influence in Random City for a set number of turns (that number being dependant on how much time each turn would cover, since the bonus wouldn't be something that could be inherited and would only be valid only for the lifetime of that particular Philosopher).
Hmmm. There seems to be a lot to take in there. It all seemed so much simpler in my mind.
I agree very much with those who have posted previously about how the game becomes a little bit like a land-grab, and I thought that it could be cool if the map thread showed what proportion of a city-state's population worships each deity, rather than who owned each city.
For example, the map thread might show that in Random City, 30% of the populous worship Jeff, the God of Biscuits, 30% worship Simon, the God of Hairdos, 25% are unaligned and pray to whichever deity (not necessarily just Jeff or Simon) their mood and/or need dictates on any given day, and 15% are atheists and worship no deity.
This statistic could then affect the ease with which Jeff or Simon is able to influence events in a given city-state. So it might be easier to find your child of fate if he or she lives somewhere where you have more worshippers, and therefore more influence. Or it may be more effective to proselytise if you have high influence in a nearby city-state and less effective if you have little or no influence in a nearby city-state.
Then, as I was waiting for the taxi to pick me up to take me to the party, I realised that you could take this idea one step further and introduce apostates.
To follow on from the previous example, lets say Jeff and Simon have a falling out and Jeff decrees that Tim Tams (which are Simon's favourite) are no longer biscuits and so his followers may not eat them. This announcement isn't met with universal approval and half of his worshippers in Random City renounce their faith in him, with one-third of those becoming apostates and two-thirds simply becoming unaligned. This would leave the religious make-up of the city-state as follows:
Jeffites - 15%
Simonites - 30%
Unaligned - 35%
Atheists - 15%
Jeffite Apostates - 5%
Jeff's influence would (obviously) fall from 30% to 15% and the 10% of the total population that left him to become unaligned would have no further negative affect on him. However, the 5% of the total population that left him to become apostates would be a further disadvantage (at a modifier worked out by Xar I guess).
Then, this morning, as I was sitting on the couch with a hangover, I thought that you could take it one more step and have a (very) small group of highly influential individuals in each city-state (say a Civic Leader, a Military Leader, and a Philosopher). Having the (likely unnamed) holder of one of these positions convert to your worship could provide an influence bonus in that city-state.
So (to continue flogging a dead horse
) if Random City's local Philosopher becomes a follower of Simon after the local Simonite priest helps wash and trim his unruly hair and beard, then Simon would gain extra influence in Random City for a set number of turns (that number being dependant on how much time each turn would cover, since the bonus wouldn't be something that could be inherited and would only be valid only for the lifetime of that particular Philosopher).Hmmm. There seems to be a lot to take in there. It all seemed so much simpler in my mind.
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
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variol son
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 5777
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 1:07 pm
- Location: New Zealand
*shrug* It's just an idea. Xar's free use as much or as little of it as he wants, or to completely discard it.
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
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variol son
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 5777
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 1:07 pm
- Location: New Zealand
Nah - I figured that after the rugby it'd be too busy and besides, I'm kinda poor this week.
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
yes. yes yes yes. exactly vs. exactly. it would be faaaarrrrr easier to define control of cities, where to get all evangelical, where to build temples, etc so on and so forth.
to me this idea seems worthy of consideration.
to me this idea seems worthy of consideration.
you're more advanced than a cockroach,
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies
i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio
a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies
i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio
a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
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Loredoctor
- Lord
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- Contact:
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variol son
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 5777
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 1:07 pm
- Location: New Zealand
Yeah, that definitely is an issue. It could, however, cause such conflicts to be more localised and specific.
So two deities (or more appropriately, the local churches/temples of two deities, since this is an idea that I think would work best in conjunction with the previously suggested idea about a larger formal role for the priesthood) may be in conflict in city-state X but have a more neutral relationship overall.
I think the idea could actually be extended to almost every area of Pantheon. If races are a feature of P4 then a deity could receive an influence bonus in a city-state controlled by that deity's chosen race. If a deity's domain is physical (forests for example) then their influence could be affected by a given city-state's proximity to the physical thing (so more influence in a city-state close to a forest, less influence in a city-state far away from a forest).
Suddenly I feel like I'm getting awfully close to creating a brand new game.
I'm going to think about how this idea might benefit those who play the game in a less confrontational style over the next few days. I'll post any ideas along that line as they come to me.
So two deities (or more appropriately, the local churches/temples of two deities, since this is an idea that I think would work best in conjunction with the previously suggested idea about a larger formal role for the priesthood) may be in conflict in city-state X but have a more neutral relationship overall.
I think the idea could actually be extended to almost every area of Pantheon. If races are a feature of P4 then a deity could receive an influence bonus in a city-state controlled by that deity's chosen race. If a deity's domain is physical (forests for example) then their influence could be affected by a given city-state's proximity to the physical thing (so more influence in a city-state close to a forest, less influence in a city-state far away from a forest).
Suddenly I feel like I'm getting awfully close to creating a brand new game.
I'm going to think about how this idea might benefit those who play the game in a less confrontational style over the next few days. I'll post any ideas along that line as they come to me.
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
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Fist and Faith
- Magister Vitae
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Sounds like that city's getting out of hand. I'd just give some DRPs to Vashitva and have her quake the damned place.
This kind of idea is extremely cool. Absolutely. And it's more in keeping with pantheons of our own world. Greece wasn't a huge place, and many deities were represented in each city. In Aesir, Diana's people visited Alcifer's. When they returned home, even though Diana was still the Big Cheese, it was not unusual for them to offer a prayer of thanks to Alcifer if someone recovered from some injury or illness.
But that's as far as it went. Just a little flavor for the results. It wasn't anything I attempted to make a part of the mechanics. It sounds amazingly complicated for Xar, as Pam's post suggested. Could it be done? I suspect it could, but it would probably be a very different game. Like you said, you're getting awfully close to creating a brand new game. Which I would very much encourage!!
This kind of idea is extremely cool. Absolutely. And it's more in keeping with pantheons of our own world. Greece wasn't a huge place, and many deities were represented in each city. In Aesir, Diana's people visited Alcifer's. When they returned home, even though Diana was still the Big Cheese, it was not unusual for them to offer a prayer of thanks to Alcifer if someone recovered from some injury or illness.
But that's as far as it went. Just a little flavor for the results. It wasn't anything I attempted to make a part of the mechanics. It sounds amazingly complicated for Xar, as Pam's post suggested. Could it be done? I suspect it could, but it would probably be a very different game. Like you said, you're getting awfully close to creating a brand new game. Which I would very much encourage!!
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
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variol son
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 5777
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 1:07 pm
- Location: New Zealand
I certainly understand how it would be a lot of work, as each city-state would require processing each turn, but I don't see it as being remarkably complicated (although that may be because I've never been a game master).
As for becoming a game master, well, I'm not sure I have it in me. Besides, if I did I would want to run something much different from any of the games I have played.
As for becoming a game master, well, I'm not sure I have it in me. Besides, if I did I would want to run something much different from any of the games I have played.
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
-
Fist and Faith
- Magister Vitae
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- Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2002 8:14 pm
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What I mean is, adding this idea to Pantheon would add an entirely new layer of stuff that would have to be processed with the already existing layers of stuff. All this stuff in addition to the interactions of (good and bad) things we throw at each other might be too much. But another game that was based primarily on this might be very doable.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
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[Syl]
- Unfettered One
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I think it would be complicated if everything else was kept the same. But if the focus moved off of controlling/fighting for Eiran and onto the hearts and minds of the mortals, not so much (again, more fitting with the idea of a priesthood). I'm picturing Venn diagrams (modified some by terrain, of course) overlaying the map, showing various spheres of influence, rather than the multicolored city set-up that there is now. Dunno, that or maybe something more analytical, like a stat breakdown for all continents, countries/regions, and cities.
Speaking of countries, it might be interesting to see a more politically dynamic world. Rather than all world conflict being a result of the deities, it would be cool to see how deities would react to and influence world events. For instance, Hestonia and Arborland go to war, but it's up to a god if he wants to endorse one side or another. Depending on if he picks the winning side, his fortunes could wax or wane as a result. It would probably be a lot of work for Xar, but then, if you cut out the random element of results, maybe not.
Heh, I could always volunteer my services to write to spec if needed, though I really am liking my planned p4 god the more I think about it.
Speaking of countries, it might be interesting to see a more politically dynamic world. Rather than all world conflict being a result of the deities, it would be cool to see how deities would react to and influence world events. For instance, Hestonia and Arborland go to war, but it's up to a god if he wants to endorse one side or another. Depending on if he picks the winning side, his fortunes could wax or wane as a result. It would probably be a lot of work for Xar, but then, if you cut out the random element of results, maybe not.
Heh, I could always volunteer my services to write to spec if needed, though I really am liking my planned p4 god the more I think about it.
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.”
-George Steiner
-George Steiner
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Fist and Faith
- Magister Vitae
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Holy crap, anybody remember P1's Northern Kingdom??? For those who don't... Avatar, God of Knowledge, did something (if I ever knew what, I don't remember) to piss off the king. I didn't know there was a king, or anything at all, up there! So they started destroying Avatar's temples and killing his followers. So he asked Bhakti for sanctuary for his followers and the books in his libraries. Which was fine with me. THEN, there's an army of 10,000 marching on MY cities!! This was Turn 6, and I had 763 followers!! There were 10,000 warriors marching against my 763 followers!!
Nephirthos and Toringian egged the Northern Kingdom on a few turns later, after we had gotten them off our backs, but, afaik, the Kingdom originally had nothing to do with any deity.
Nephirthos and Toringian egged the Northern Kingdom on a few turns later, after we had gotten them off our backs, but, afaik, the Kingdom originally had nothing to do with any deity.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
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variol son
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 5777
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 1:07 pm
- Location: New Zealand
Ah yes, those of us who lived in the south remember that well. 
If the game were to include a more formal role for a deity's priesthood (whatever it might take) and focus more on the hearts and minds of the mortals, then I think the nature of the conflicts would change.
So you may get a repeat of what happened to Bhakti and Avatar in P1, but you probably won't get blazing suns and demon lords and the like.
To be honest, so many people seemed to like the idea of a formal in-game role for the priesthood that I pretty much took that as a given when I came up with my suggestion. My bad.
If the game were to include a more formal role for a deity's priesthood (whatever it might take) and focus more on the hearts and minds of the mortals, then I think the nature of the conflicts would change.
So you may get a repeat of what happened to Bhakti and Avatar in P1, but you probably won't get blazing suns and demon lords and the like.
To be honest, so many people seemed to like the idea of a formal in-game role for the priesthood that I pretty much took that as a given when I came up with my suggestion. My bad.
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
-
Fist and Faith
- Magister Vitae
- Posts: 23563
- Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2002 8:14 pm
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variol son
- The Gap Into Spam
- Posts: 5777
- Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 1:07 pm
- Location: New Zealand
I like your idea alot. i try and play my mortals as much as possible and leave divine acts to rare events when possible. This idea would really push that. Im all for itSyl wrote:I think it would be complicated if everything else was kept the same. But if the focus moved off of controlling/fighting for Eiran and onto the hearts and minds of the mortals, not so much (again, more fitting with the idea of a priesthood). I'm picturing Venn diagrams (modified some by terrain, of course) overlaying the map, showing various spheres of influence, rather than the multicolored city set-up that there is now. Dunno, that or maybe something more analytical, like a stat breakdown for all continents, countries/regions, and cities.
Speaking of countries, it might be interesting to see a more politically dynamic world. Rather than all world conflict being a result of the deities, it would be cool to see how deities would react to and influence world events. For instance, Hestonia and Arborland go to war, but it's up to a god if he wants to endorse one side or another. Depending on if he picks the winning side, his fortunes could wax or wane as a result. It would probably be a lot of work for Xar, but then, if you cut out the random element of results, maybe not.
Heh, I could always volunteer my services to write to spec if needed, though I really am liking my planned p4 god the more I think about it.
overall, great ideas people
