Pantheon - Discussions on the Future

[stonemaybe]

A week offline and I come back to all this!

Anyway, while it's all fresh in my memory, here's my tuppence worth (sorry if I get mixed up in who suggested what)

I love Variol Son's idea about showing percentages in each city/area. But we'd have to start paying Xar a wage to go Allfather full-time! I do agree with NOT being able to claim cities/areas completely, just gain influence in them by encouraging missionaries, temple-builds etc (or maybe just by affecting the environment there, eg drought, plagues). Like the idea that if a city is near a big forest, for example, it'd be more susceptible to a God of Forests.

I don't agree with anonymous playing for several reasons...

- It'd never work! And if some players guess/confide in some identities it might give them an unfair advantage.

- The comments thread would have to go. I really like the way (I think due to some comments by Montressor and Dorian) the Game thread was completely a game thread, and the Comments thread for ooc stuff and banter, in P3. It made roleplaying easier for me. And if we had no comments thread and anonymity, it would seriously impair some player's chance for game input, depending on their type of character - how would Dorian have communicated in P3 for example? And though it might seem a nonsense to most of you, Brid's way of communicating is very much a reflection of her character, takes an awful lot of work (and re-work, and re-work!) on my behalf, and not being able to communicate on the game as Stonemaybe in the Comments Thread and other Pantheon threads, would be extremely frustrating. The only alternative (it seems to me) would be to make something like he 'Hallowed Dome of Pellendra' the 'comments thread' but that died an early death in P3.
I do agree with the criticism that RL friends will be tempted to make ingame alliances - but the Courts help with this problem, and it seems to me that in P3, Xar rewards in-game alliances that are made in context of your character, and not RL. This, to me, is a huge incentive to roleplay properly!

- I disagree with coloured areas of map showing influence, that's just make it more like a game of Risk.

- It would be good (though I can't see how Xar would process) if you could gain power by followers of other gods offering up prayers to you in certain circumstances. I thought this was how it would work when I joined P2. Physical domains might become alot more attractive, as travellers through forests, over seas, etc would offer prayers to appropriate gods.

- I can't really get my head around how the time dilation (expansion?) thing would work in-game, but it seems like a good idea.

- Prophet-hood, good!

- Separate divine- and priest-based DRP. Looks too much like P3's wealth thing to me, which just slowed up processing and had to be abolished.

- Two players taking same domain - surely this would lead to those players focusing on eachother too much, to the exclusion of all else?

Regarding the P1, P2 ages being so short because of gods gaining power too quickly and destroying things...how about an in-game NPC Allfather that could stop things getting out of hand? I know it would be limiting in some ways, but it'd be more challenging for those types of gods who, let's face it, want to end an enjoyable game by 'winning' at the expense of others!

[[Syl]]

Two players taking same domain - surely this would lead to those players focusing on eachother too much, to the exclusion of all else?

Maybe, if the inter-player dynamic is kept mostly the same. I'd like to think, though, that trying to battle another god of your own domain would be pretty ineffective and have a good chance of backfiring. But if the battle was one of ideas... I can just imagine two different players playing Pan and Faunus. When they're in separate regions, it wouldn't be a problem, but as they began to compete for the minds of people... perhaps the ideological loser would end up taking a sub-domain. And I can imagine one or the other being weaker at the points of convergence, but being strengthened by the other's existence back home. Dunno, tons of possibilities. But I'm not so sure the antagonism between two likes would be any less than two antipodes. Of course, the game itself might suffer if there are five Gods of Death.

I think the percentage thing could be done by the players themselves (if they were so inclined). It would just need the move to a temple-based system rather than a city-based one. For each city you would only need to know how many temples a player has there and the population of the city. Only allow so many followers per temple, say 1000, and make it difficult to impossible for players to found new cities (thus preventing the mushroom-like growth of cities across Eiran). A village, with a population around 1000, would only have one temple. A god's sway there would be pretty absolute, but then, how much influence can a god really wield from a village? Likewise, a large city could hold dozens of temples, but a god's influence would be diluted.

Heh. You could also play with the temples themselves. A single "temple" could be nothing more than a shrine, while three "temples" could, in fact, be a cathedral.

1- shrine
2- chapel
4- church
8- cathedral
16- temple
32- Vatican City

*shrug* While it may look more complicated on the surface, I think it feels more real and may actually be almost as easy as the current system when you take away the map updates.

[Xar]

I love Variol Son's idea about showing percentages in each city/area. But we'd have to start paying Xar a wage to go Allfather full-time! I do agree with NOT being able to claim cities/areas completely, just gain influence in them by encouraging missionaries, temple-builds etc (or maybe just by affecting the environment there, eg drought, plagues). Like the idea that if a city is near a big forest, for example, it'd be more susceptible to a God of Forests.

I've been considering this idea. Variol son's suggestion is certainly good, but Stone is right - if I did that, I'd have to go AllFather full-time What I thought could be done is this: just like we set up a time dilation, we also set up a space dilation as well. For instance, the first few turns might focus not on the whole world, but on the city where the character appears and the surrounding areas; probably characters would reveal in nearby cities, or in the same one, so that conflict and alliances could be organized - I envision a random selection in this case, with X cities available for reveals at the beginning of the game and each character randomly being assigned to one (this would prevent pre-game alliances from forming and then immediately building up in a city). As the deities gain power, a larger and larger portion of the map is revealed, just like a turn represents a larger segment of time.

I also thought that by slowing down growth in terms of DRPs, this will lead to more use of mortal resources; therefore, I have thought about the idea that characters would get "influence tokens" (not the final name, obviously ) based on their number of followers and their Contentment score. These tokens represent missionary groups, large concentrations of worshippers, the seat of a holy order, and so on; each token would grant the character an amount of influence in the city it is located (and the surrounding environs), with more tokens granting more influence without necessarily claiming the whole city. So the more tokens you "spend" on one city, the more that city's people are biased towards you, in general. As you grow more powerful and your people are more content, you gain more tokens, so that you can make your influence felt in more areas. I have pretty much automatized the calculations through Excel, so that wouldn't be too much of a problem to pull off, I think.

I don't agree with anonymous playing for several reasons...

- It'd never work! And if some players guess/confide in some identities it might give them an unfair advantage.

- The comments thread would have to go. I really like the way (I think due to some comments by Montressor and Dorian) the Game thread was completely a game thread, and the Comments thread for ooc stuff and banter, in P3. It made roleplaying easier for me. And if we had no comments thread and anonymity, it would seriously impair some player's chance for game input, depending on their type of character - how would Dorian have communicated in P3 for example? And though it might seem a nonsense to most of you, Brid's way of communicating is very much a reflection of her character, takes an awful lot of work (and re-work, and re-work!) on my behalf, and not being able to communicate on the game as Stonemaybe in the Comments Thread and other Pantheon threads, would be extremely frustrating. The only alternative (it seems to me) would be to make something like he 'Hallowed Dome of Pellendra' the 'comments thread' but that died an early death in P3.
I do agree with the criticism that RL friends will be tempted to make ingame alliances - but the Courts help with this problem, and it seems to me that in P3, Xar rewards in-game alliances that are made in context of your character, and not RL. This, to me, is a huge incentive to roleplay properly!

I also thought about reworking the Courts/Houses system by merging both into one Court system where, rather than gaining additional "court DRPs", you grow in influence the more your Court-mates grow.

- It would be good (though I can't see how Xar would process) if you could gain power by followers of other gods offering up prayers to you in certain circumstances. I thought this was how it would work when I joined P2. Physical domains might become alot more attractive, as travellers through forests, over seas, etc would offer prayers to appropriate gods.

This is hinted at in the game through two mechanics: first of all, I said several times that "number of worshippers" doesn't necessarily mean you have that exact number of people: it's rather a measure of total faith. So that includes the occasional prayers to you from those who do not specifically consider you their patron. Secondly, it is hinted at by the mechanics according to which if your area of influence represents something which is very abundant in a turn (such as war), you grow more powerful (because mortals pray to you due to this abundance).

- Two players taking same domain - surely this would lead to those players focusing on eachother too much, to the exclusion of all else?

This would depend of course on the deities involved - two deities with the same domain might also work with each other in an effort to strengthen their common domain.

Regarding the P1, P2 ages being so short because of gods gaining power too quickly and destroying things...how about an in-game NPC Allfather that could stop things getting out of hand? I know it would be limiting in some ways, but it'd be more challenging for those types of gods who, let's face it, want to end an enjoyable game by 'winning' at the expense of others!

I'd rather avoid an AllFather NPC - it would feel very much like a plot hammer. If I implemented the influence tokens idea, above, that would already sort of restrict what a deity can do (since the amount of tokens and their influence would depend on the deity's worshippers and Contentment, this would suggest the deity should focus on making his/her people happy, among other things) - especially together with a slower DRP progression and a dilating time frame.

I also envision a situation in which some of the more specific rules eventually are "compressed" as time dilates - for instance, by the time most deities are relatively powerful and turns represent years, or decades, then individual influence tokens (which you probably would have a lot of) would be replaced by larger influence tokens which represent more power and influence, while it is assumed that you have a modicum of influence in each individual city by that point, since you have become well-known and have many worshippers. At that point it would become easier to focus on specific areas of interest rather than micro-managing each city (and this would make things easier for me to process as well).

[stonemaybe]

I like the space dilation idea! (Still think they should be called time and space expansion though )

Would the effect of the 'tokens' be increased by use within your domain?

[Xar]

I like the space dilation idea! (Still think they should be called time and space expansion though )

Would the effect of the 'tokens' be increased by use within your domain?

No, tokens would represent your mortal resources - as I said, zealous preachers, missionary expeditions, large concentration of your worshippers, and so on; they would not DO anything by themselves, except for giving you a certain amount of passive influence in the city they are in, and the surrounding environs (you can imagine them as representing a certain percentage of the population there being your worshippers). If you wanted something to happen in the city and used DRPs, however, your action would be more successful the more influence you have in that city. If, say, each of your tokens equals 10% influence in a city and you place six tokens in city X, it would mean that roughly 60% of that city's people have you as their patron; if, however, other deities had already more than 40% of those people as worshippers, then you'd have some sort of "turf war" to be fought with that other deity.

Say that the worshippers of the Deity of Rotten Fruits were 60% of the peoply in City X; if the Deity of Mud focused his mortal influence on City X and attempted to claim more than the remaining 40% of people in that city, he and the Deity of Rotten Fruits would - depending on their relationships as perceived by the mortals - either "split" the worshippers, or they might quarrel about the situation - even get to the point of having a religious war inside the city in order to decide which church will be predominant.

[stonemaybe]

I like the space dilation idea! (Still think they should be called time and space expansion though )

Would the effect of the 'tokens' be increased by use within your domain?

No, tokens would represent your mortal resources - as I said, zealous preachers, missionary expeditions, large concentration of your worshippers, and so on; they would not DO anything by themselves, except for giving you a certain amount of passive influence in the city they are in, and the surrounding environs (you can imagine them as representing a certain percentage of the population there being your worshippers). If you wanted something to happen in the city and used DRPs, however, your action would be more successful the more influence you have in that city. If, say, each of your tokens equals 10% influence in a city and you place six tokens in city X, it would mean that roughly 60% of that city's people have you as their patron; if, however, other deities had already more than 40% of those people as worshippers, then you'd have some sort of "turf war" to be fought with that other deity.

Say that the worshippers of the Deity of Rotten Fruits were 60% of the peoply in City X; if the Deity of Mud focused his mortal influence on City X and attempted to claim more than the remaining 40% of people in that city, he and the Deity of Rotten Fruits would - depending on their relationships as perceived by the mortals - either "split" the worshippers, or they might quarrel about the situation - even get to the point of having a religious war inside the city in order to decide which church will be predominant.

But, what if....

only joking, I understand. And if i post any more Fist will kill me for delaying processing.....




But if a token did, say, represent 10% of a population, maybe it could represent 10% of a convertable population? To prevent one diety 'owning' a city, say 1% of every city will worship each diety. Say there are 20 players, so 80% of population is convertable. So each token could represent 10% of 80%, ie 8%. So 6 tokens played in one city would give you 6x8=48% plus your 1% = 49%.
Would tokens be 'remove-able' once played? For example, you decide to move your missionary headquarters from one city to another. Or trade-able in return for favours or DRP with other dieties?

[Menolly]

I am so going to have to see any of this in play to comprehend it...

And that better be a long, long way off...

[Dagon]

I'm very fond of the time and space dilation idea. Every turn would be even more unique and fresh than they already are. And the idea of a deity's influence starting centered in one village and eventually expanding to an entire continent is exciting.

[Fist and Faith]

A few days ago, I announced in VoE that I was not going to do any OOC communicating. Not to say I'll never say anything in the Comments thread, but when I do, it will not cross with the Gameplay at all.

So far, I'm very much enjoying it!!! Truly, I'm not even sure who three of the four others who have been participating so far are! I know one, have a guess about one, and have no guess about the other two. It's really great doing it this way!

I suppose, eventually, I might somehow learn who everybody is. And I guess everybody knows who I am already. But still, no OOC puts it all in a very different light!

[Arcadia]

Yes, but will you be able to refrain from texting for Pantheon?

[Menolly]

All I can say regarding not knowing is...ick.

Of the five interacting so far on the floor of the Valley, I know four for certain, and have a strong hunch as to the fifth. But the uncertainty of that fifth is driving me crazy...

And then there are the two more who have registered, but not shown in the game thread yet. Again, I have guesses, but those have even less basis than the fifth on the floor currently does...

[Fist and Faith]

With this long wait for results, I've been making plans for P4. Not knowing which domain I'll get, I figured I'd better be prepared. So far, I have pretty serious plans laid out for three different domains, and a start of a fourth. If any of these aren't claimed by anyone else, I'll be ready to go.

Gotta get to work on some others, of course. Never know how many players P4 will have.

[The Numen]

So, I guess I have a different approach, since I *ONLY* know most of you in the context of this game. But, I imagine that if things are done properly... regardless of who the person playing Zephyr is, if Zephyr is a fully flushed out character (even if the rest of us don't necessarily know all the details yet), who the player behind the mask is shouldn't matter. The player should act out the character according to that map.

I guess there's some value to knowing that Menolly will be out of town for a week, and therefore cho and Laurel and whatever other characters she's playing in various games won't be posting during that time. But other than that, I'd rather NOT have my preconceptions about a player influencing what my character will do in response to that player's character.

[Fist and Faith]

Absolutely! I wish it was possible for none of us to know anyone else. Ah well...

[Menolly]

...and I have the total opposite opinion.

[Fist and Faith]

Yes, I know. All other players combined don't want even a tenth of the OOC communications you want. But it's a role-playing game, eh? We're supposed to play the character, not the player. The characters are supposed to interact, not the players. caam just showed us the very highest possible demonstration of this.

[Fist and Faith]

Just had a great idea for another domain! P4 is gonna be a lot of fun!

[Madadeva]

Yes, I know. All other players combined don't want even a tenth of the OOC communications you want. But it's a role-playing game, eh? We're supposed to play the character, not the player. The characters are supposed to interact, not the players. caam just showed us the very highest possible demonstration of this.

Pft! You'd go crazy if you couldn't txt!!

[Fist and Faith]

True dat! But caam and I still txt. Since our characters can't work together, and are possibly enemies, we no longer discuss what they're doing. Still, we manage.

[Xar]

Ok, first of all, I'd like to point out that unless something momentous on the part of the players happens, I'd like to continue P3 as long as a world is there to do so However, given the bent most turns have taken lately, I frankly doubt Eiran will last much longer...

So in the last few days I've been thinking about changes for P4, and because I came up with radical ideas, I thought it might be good to discuss them here in the meantime.

I'd like to start by presenting an overhaul of the character creation process. Essentially, the deity creation process would work as follows:

1) There will be only 12 (or so) deity slots in the game; no players can join above that number unless a player drops out of the game.

2) Multiple players will be able to choose the same domain.

3) Players, upon joining the game, will be required not just to come up with a dogma and a holy symbol, but also to develop two additional (but crucial) aspects of the deity's existence: the deity's divine realm and the deity's chosen race. Players joining the game after it has already begun will have the option of making their own race or choosing an existing one.

The deity's divine realm will serve different purposes, including a staging ground, a haven, a source of power and a potential vulnerability. The race will serve to give the player the possibility to create his own "perfect" followers (although attributes of the race will be assigned by me, so as to ensure fairness).

4) Also, each player will be randomly assigned to one of four Houses upon creation, with each House containing at most 1/4 of all deities in the game. Houses, once assigned, cannot be changed, but their main purpose is to fraction the game in what could be one of the biggest gameplay changes (meant to hopefully increase flexibility and minimize hiatuses):

Players will no longer all submit turns at the same time. Rather, each House will have its deadline (i.e. House 1 will have to submit by, say, December 6; House 2 will have its deadline for the turn by December 9; and so on). This way, I won't have to process 12 turns in a single batch, but I'll process less turns at a time, potentially making things easier. It will also give each player a chance to react to the doings of other deities or rectify the situation.

5) There will still be at least two Courts, but they will work in a different way. First of all, each Court will only have a certain number of available slots for deities; second, affiliation to a Court (or lack thereof) will substantially change gameplay. For instance, you won't be able to loan power or influence to a deity outside your Court (or belonging to either Court, if you are Neutral). If you are in a Court, you will also gain minor boosts in influence whenever other deities in your Court gain influence (but the opposite is also true: if they are weakened, you are slightly weakened as well). Plus, Court Oracles will remain in the game. Deities with the same domain will not be able to belong to the same Court or House.

6) There will be no longer a "divine rank". Players will have two main stats: Divine Power and Divine Influence. The former will increase VERY slowly, and will represent your supernatural power: it will allow you to perform powerful miracles which will NOT be affected by randomness, and which can reach anywhere in the world, but because it grows very slowly, it will be limited in scope. Divine Influence on the other hand will be represented by tokens which you gain as the number of worshippers increase. Tokens must be placed in cities to represent your temporal and spiritual influence there (many deities may have tokens in the same city), and each turn you'll be able to use those tokens in that city, if you so wish - either to perform an action which does not require supernatural power, or to hinder the efforts of the other god/s in the city. However, you won't be able to move Influence around at will, and the only way you'll have to affect events in cities where you don't have Influence will be using your Divine Power.

7) There will be no named characters, although everyone will have one Prophethood to bestow at any given time; if your Prophet dies, you give it to someone else. Prophets will be powerful tools: walking Divine Influence, they will also sometimes be able to perform small miracles independently of your power.

There will be earthly kingdoms and you will - in time - be able to affect their politics; This, however, will come later in the game.

9) The game time duration of a turn will dilate as the game goes on and deities become more powerful.

Ideally, these changes should make things easier for me to process (you don't have much power, and you can only influence things in selected places) while still giving players a lot of flexibility (you can concentrate your Influence in a specific city or spread it over a large area, and both strategies will have their advantages and disadvantages; your use of Divine Power will no longer be restricted by die roll, so that when you use it, you'll know exactly that it will work).

However, I'd like to hear your comments about this since I'd rather work out the kinks before the time comes in which one has to think seriously about starting P4.