The Despiser's Intent.

Post by **Andy Lane** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:20 pm

Rigel wrote:
Mr. Broken wrote:Would it not better promote despite to force Linden to choose , and force Covenant to stop her? Intimate betrayal with tragic consequence.
That actually makes sense... Put Linden in a position such that the only way to save Jeremiah is to use so much power that it will topple the Arch...

Covenant's only choice would be to resist her.

Of course, toppling The Arch (and setting Foul free upon the universe) isn't exactly going to save anybody.

Post by **Andy Lane** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:28 pm

wayfriend wrote: Also, the Creator (I think) said that the Despiser can't be killed. Covenant surely said it. If that bears out, we won't see Foul destroyed. The "ultimate answer to evil" won't be exterminating evil from the world.

The Mahdoubt, the Harrow, and others have seen that these are the last days of the Earth. I believe them. And yet, I believe that Donaldson will end the series with all of us joyful at Linden's and Covenant's triumphant success. So in the next two books, Donaldson has to make those two things happen at the same time. We need to see that the end of the Land is the right answer.

"We need to see that the end of The Land is the right answer." I really think wayfriend hit the nail on the head. SRD has said, time and time again, that he doesn't want ANYONE writing another sequel to TC after he's gone. So I think it's safe to say that he'll end the series (and The Land), not just stop it. (Sopranos anyone?? PPPPHHHHFFFFTTTT!!!)

Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:42 pm

Andy Lane wrote:
wayfriend wrote: Also, the Creator (I think) said that the Despiser can't be killed. Covenant surely said it. If that bears out, we won't see Foul destroyed. The "ultimate answer to evil" won't be exterminating evil from the world.

The Mahdoubt, the Harrow, and others have seen that these are the last days of the Earth. I believe them. And yet, I believe that Donaldson will end the series with all of us joyful at Linden's and Covenant's triumphant success. So in the next two books, Donaldson has to make those two things happen at the same time. We need to see that the end of the Land is the right answer.
"We need to see that the end of The Land is the right answer." I really think wayfriend hit the nail on the head. SRD has said, time and time again, that he doesn't want ANYONE writing another sequel to TC after he's gone. So I think it's safe to say that he'll end the series (and The Land), not just stop it. (Sopranos anyone?? PPPPHHHHFFFFTTTT!!!)

Yes, but it won't be due to any effort to save her son. LA will be outraged to discover that "I have your son" does not mean anything like kidnapping. It is a double entendre, meaning just the opposite of what she thinks: that LF has won Jeremiah over, and he has joined forces with LF. LA will find that everything she has tried to accomplish has been for nothing, everything will ultimately "turn black" for her (the last dark), and she will then turn into a Despiser, a true Foul-wife.

Post by **spoonchicken** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:07 am

Fouls is going to win it all. He will slay Jeremiah in LA's presence, use two Ravers to possess her for all eternity as Linden Foul-wife ("I shall gladly mark myself upon flesh such as yours") The Arch is destroyed, TC is finally killed once and for all, and The Last Dark occupies all Time & Space. Even the Creator is cast down at the last...Pahni & Liand both get gang-raped to death by the Giants, the Haruchai are destroyed by spontaneous combustion (as a race) in frustration at how things turned out, and Anele laughs himself into having a heart attack.

Post by **shadowbinding shoe** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:14 am

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: Yes, but it won't be due to any effort to save her son. LA will be outraged to discover that "I have your son" does not mean anything like kidnapping. It is a double entendre, meaning just the opposite of what she thinks: that LF has won Jeremiah over, and he has joined forces with LF. LA will find that everything she has tried to accomplish has been for nothing, everything will ultimately "turn black" for her (the last dark), and she will then turn into a Despiser, a true Foul-wife.

rotfl

Post by **spoonchicken** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:42 pm

Yes, but it won't be due to any effort to save her son. LA will be outraged to discover that "I have your son" does not mean anything like kidnapping. It is a double entendre, meaning just the opposite of what she thinks: that LF has won Jeremiah over, and he has joined forces with LF. .........................You know, that does sound completely plausible. I for one, won't bet against something very much like that happening! Wow, what a moral & emotional crisis that would be for LA! Perhaps LA becomes so enraged that she unleashes enough force against Foul to break the Arch, but not enough to kill Foul. So as he's fighting off her attack, LF is laughing at her ("Yeah! Go right ahead & break the Arch for me! Ha Ha !") And,....TC has to wield his wild magic to stop or restrain her, thereby suddenly finding himself in the position of fighting against LA, and...."defending Foul" from LA?!?!? Now that would be an interesting plot twist!

Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:05 pm

spoonchicken wrote:Yes, but it won't be due to any effort to save her son. LA will be outraged to discover that "I have your son" does not mean anything like kidnapping. It is a double entendre, meaning just the opposite of what she thinks: that LF has won Jeremiah over, and he has joined forces with LF. .........................You know, that does sound completely plausible. I for one, won't bet against something very much like that happening! Wow, what a moral & emotional crisis that would be for LA! Perhaps LA becomes so enraged that she unleashes enough force against Foul to break the Arch, but not enough to kill Foul. So as he's fighting off her attack, LF is laughing at her ("Yeah! Go right ahead & break the Arch for me! Ha Ha !") And,....TC has to wield his wild magic to stop or restrain her, thereby suddenly finding himself in the position of fighting against LA, and...."defending Foul" from LA?!?!? Now that would be an interesting plot twist!

That sounds all right up to the point where TC wields wild magic. He said he would never wield it again. LA will attack until TC is possessed by LF whereupon she won't do anything to harm her lover. At this point, the Creator, who hasn't appeared in the third Chrons yet (for good reason), will make a sudden dramatic entrance and possess TC from beyond the Arch, they will be three beings in one.

The Creator will vanquish LF, and it is from this platform, from within TC, that the Creator will Create the Land anew, the Worm having been rendered quiescent again.

Post by **wayfriend** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:30 pm

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:LA will be outraged to discover that "I have your son" does not mean anything like kidnapping. It is a double entendre, meaning just the opposite of what she thinks: that LF has won Jeremiah over, and he has joined forces with LF.

Darn! That's good. That's really good.

Post by **SGuilfoyle1966** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:57 pm

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Mr. Broken wrote:She made her choice already by summoning Covenant, its a little late for her to start changing her mind now , as we say in Poker she's all in. As far as rightful weilders of the ring, is Joan not the rightful weilder of her's ? Did she forfeit that right when she divorced Covenant, is Linden now the rightful owner of Joans ring ?
She's all in? How do you know she won't say "Just kiddingggg!" and kill him in the first paragraph of AATE?

I bet you a million bajillion dollars that doesn't happen.

Post by **High Lord Tolkien** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:25 pm

wayfriend wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:LA will be outraged to discover that "I have your son" does not mean anything like kidnapping. It is a double entendre, meaning just the opposite of what she thinks: that LF has won Jeremiah over, and he has joined forces with LF.
Darn! That's good. That's really good.

oops. nevermind.

Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:22 pm

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
wayfriend wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:LA will be outraged to discover that "I have your son" does not mean anything like kidnapping. It is a double entendre, meaning just the opposite of what she thinks: that LF has won Jeremiah over, and he has joined forces with LF.
Darn! That's good. That's really good.
oops. nevermind.

Did I miss something here?

Post by **High Lord Tolkien** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:18 pm

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
High Lord Tolkien wrote:
wayfriend wrote: Darn! That's good. That's really good.
oops. nevermind.
Did I miss something here?

Apparently the "nevermind" part.

Post by **deer of the dawn** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:14 pm

The Land is destroyed, Linden turns bad, Haruchai break down and cry, Foul wins, everybody dies, and Covenant wakes up on the street in front of a police car bumper.

Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:03 pm

deer of the dawn wrote:The Land is destroyed, Linden turns bad, Haruchai break down and cry, Foul wins, everybody dies, and Covenant wakes up on the street in front of a police car bumper.

Pretty much, except for the last.

Post by **SoulBiter** » Fri May 15, 2009 8:52 pm

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
That sounds all right up to the point where TC wields wild magic. He said he would never wield it again.

He did say that but he said that because at the time he was both venom and whitegold and he says something like "White Gold is the keystone of the arch, can you imagine the arch being made of partial venom" (A definite paraphrase) But he did end up using the ring just a little after he said he wouldnt. At the end of WGW he says that he caused something to rise up out of the cairn which gave the giants the distraction needed to escape.

As far as where the books are going.... I think Foul is going to finally win, and by winning he will finally lose. SRD will do something unexpected.. its just like him to throw us off track and sometimes he does so by being overtly obvious.

Post by **Orlion** » Fri May 15, 2009 9:06 pm

Lord Foul's main flaw is that he is so intent on exactly what he wants that he doesn't realize that getting it is always his downfall.

1st Chronicles: Turn TC to another version of himself or lure im to the Creche (Crap, they're all laughing at me!!!)

2nd Chronicles: Force TC to give him the ring voluntarily (DAMMIT! WHY ISN'T THIS RING WORKING!!!)

Last Chronicles: Well... can't comment yet since I don't know what he has planned specifically... except that it probably has something to do with causing despair and bringing down a certain arch...

Post by **wayfriend** » Fri May 15, 2009 9:22 pm

SoulBiter wrote:At the end of WGW he says that he caused something to rise up out of the cairn which gave the giants the distraction needed to escape.

Nice catch. "Foul gave me so much power. ... I had to do something." It's hard to argue that Covenant didn't use power there. I never noticed this before, thanks.

Covenant also said, "In a sense, I've become the keystone of the Arch. Or I will be — if I let what I am loose. If I ever try to use power."

The reason for this was, "I'm venom, too. Lord Foul's venom. Can you imagine what the Earth would be like if venom was the keystone?"

It looks to me, in light of this insight, that Covenant "used power" after the venom was burned out of him by Foul. Thus, it had became safe to become the keystone of the Arch.

More importantly, it may mean that Covenant's statement that he would never use power again only meant that he wouldn't as long as he had the venom. And that we shouldn't expect the Covenant of the third Chronicles to be reticent of power at all.

The only thing that bothers me about this is that that is a lot of implication to pin on what may be an insignificant element of the plot. It may be that Covenant didn't use power at all, merely did what any Dead could do without wild magic. Or that Donaldson slipped up a bit.

After all, could the Land be in the dilemma it's in if Covenant could weild his wild magic?

Post by **Auleliel** » Sat May 16, 2009 6:49 am

wayfriend wrote:After all, could the Land be in the dilemma it's in if Covenant could weild his wild magic?

How do we know he hasn't been wielding wild magic for the last 3,000 or so years as the keystone of the Arch?

Post by **Vraith** » Sat May 16, 2009 1:10 pm

Auleliel wrote:
wayfriend wrote:After all, could the Land be in the dilemma it's in if Covenant could weild his wild magic?
How do we know he hasn't been wielding wild magic for the last 3,000 or so years as the keystone of the Arch?

There's a hint that he did, to some extent: Infelice says that the world would be in better shape if Linden hadn't made the SoL, because it's nature limited the "Timewarden." [keeping in mind the Elohim often mislead, and aren't as "right" as they think they are]

Mon May 18, 2009 2:05 pm

Vraith wrote:
Auleliel wrote:
wayfriend wrote:After all, could the Land be in the dilemma it's in if Covenant could weild his wild magic?
How do we know he hasn't been wielding wild magic for the last 3,000 or so years as the keystone of the Arch?
There's a hint that he did, to some extent: Infelice says that the world would be in better shape if Linden hadn't made the SoL, because it's nature limited the "Timewarden." [keeping in mind the Elohim often mislead, and aren't as "right" as they think they are]

One of the themes of the 2nd Chrons was the dangers of using power. LF manipulated TC into using his wild magic for a reason, as you know, and of course there was also the venom. TC's every exertion of power only aided LF in the long run, until TC finally gave it up. By the end of the 2nd Chrons, LF and TC had switched roles in the sense that LF's exertion of wild magic was self-defeating, it only served to aid TC. LF had not learned the lesson of power as had TC.

This is the phenomenal lesson which SRD tries to teach his readers. If TC uses such power in the 3rd Chrons then it will be as if there had been no lesson at all, and TC's statement that he will never use power again will be a lie.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

The Despiser's Intent.