The Clave vs. The Council

Post by **aTOMiC** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:52 pm

Corrupted earthpower not withstanding, how would each group fare against each other in a conflict? Ranyhyn vs. Coursers. Earthpower-Lore vs. Bloodbourne mystic energies. On the surface it would seem pretty simple. Stop the Clave from harvesting blood and you force them to use their own. If all of the members of the Clave were struggling to keep their balance from the blood loss I imagine they’d be pretty easy defeat. Not to mention that we’d all agree that High Lord Kevin and the Bloodguard would flat out kick their butts.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 6:24 pm

I imagine Revelstone would be pretty crowded with both groups there. The wait for using the bathroom would be pretty long.

Post by **Landwaster** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:15 am

Well the Clave itself was a corrupted Council ... so for mine I reckon it'd depend on whether a Raver could secrete himself into a Council. If he could, then the Clave would rule.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 2:00 am

I know you're saying "Just suppose..." but I thought it was interesting to note that the Clave and Council cannot exist at the same time. Either the Earthpower is corrupted, or it is not. If it is, then the Clave can exist, but the Council cannot, and vice-versa.

But that aside, I think the Clave would beat the New Lords, but probably not the Old.

And if the Coursers are not being controlled by the Riders, they would have NO CHANCE against the Ranyhyn!!! Holy cow, not even close! Not one-on-one, and clearly not a gathering of mindless, uncooperating beasts against a concerted group of Ranyhyn.

Post by **hierachy** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:24 am

The clave would win. All of the lords of the council are a bunch of wimps, or nervous wrecks, or wierdos, except mhoram (possibly ELENA)

Post by **Gil galad** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:50 am

no way the council is cool!

Post by **hierachy** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:49 am

ok, picture it:

Variol Vs Sivit
Shetra Vs Gibbon

The number of members of the clave also outnumbers the council imensly. The councils only chance would be if they mastered Kevins lore.

Post by **aTOMiC** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:30 pm

Anonymous wrote:I imagine Revelstone would be pretty crowded with both groups there. The wait for using the bathroom would be pretty long.

At least the concept of the two groups being able to exist at the same time isn't an issue with this comment.

One of the major differences between the two groups is that the Clave, if confronted with the Council, would be compelled by Gibbon to capture the Lords to be shed for their blood or out right destroyed. The Council was populated by good and decent folk who would have striven to their utmost to preserve the members of the Clave at almost any cost.

Do not hurt where holding is enough;
do not wound where hurting is enough;
do not maim where wounding is enough;
and kill not where maiming is enough;
the greatest warrior is one who does not need to kill.

The Clave did not follow this philosophy.

Post by **Prince of Amber** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:36 pm

If I remember correctly it was the Oath of Peace which prevented the new Lords for achieving their potential, and because of that I don't think they would have been able to withstand the might of the Clave - Wasn't it Mhorams dark secret - he decided to abandon the Oath and this allowed his great victory - but maybe it was the new order which came about after the end of TPTP that allowed the birth of the Sunbane and the Clave - or was it the breaking of the Law of Death?? I wish Knew these books a bit better I must have read them a dozen times but still I forget.

Post by **Forestal** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 2:28 pm

Council vs Clave?

well the council could talk to eachother without making a sound... talk about covert!

i'd back the council over the clave ANY DAY

Post by **Furls Fire** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 2:52 pm

All the power the Clave had came from the Banefire, and Gibbon. You put out the Banefire, take away their ruhks and blood...I'd say the Lords would have been able to defeat them. They were not weak, they were not wimps and they were NOT weirdos. (appalling

). Mhoram proved a match for a Raver. He could have bested Gibbon. If 4 Giants, a handful of haruchai, Sunder, Hollian, Covenant and Linden, and one sandgorgen can bring them down. You bet your sweet bippy the Council could have.

*goes off muttering about the wimps and wierdos comment...*

Post by **Prince of Amber** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 3:37 pm

You see that's my point - Mhoram only defeated a raver after he had abandoned his oath of Peace (was it Trell who showed him the way when he practically melted the Hall at Revelstone)
Covenant was the Key to the defeat of the Clave, without the White Gold it wouldn't have happened, and didn't it require Earthpower incarnate to put out the Fire? The Lords as we meet them in LFB are a fine, powerful bunch of people - but the corruption of Earthpower and strength of the Banefire would have been too much for them, my opinion.
The question I was asking is - was it the increase in power the Lords aquired after the end of the 1st Chronicles that allowed the raise of the Clave in the first place - ie - Breaking of the Oath of Peace led to more powerful Lords (Na'mhoram) led to the corruption of Earthpower (with a big input from Foul here) and hence the Clave and the Sunbane, am I making any sense??

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 3:53 pm

Actually, I don't agree that Mhoram "abandoned" his Oath of Peace. He used his Oath in conjunction with the power of the RoD. His Oath is was what allowed him to stop Trell from destroying the Close and it also allowed him to defeat the Raver. It was the two things combined. He never abandoned his Oath. In fact, Mhoram abandoned persuing Kevin's Lore at the end of TPTP because it precluded Peace.

As for the corruption of the Earthpower. That happened because the Staff of Law was destroyed and Foul buried himself in it to restore himself to strength. It had nothing to do with anyone abandoning the Oath of Peace. THAT was actually abandoned by the Clave itself with the coming of the Raver.

And Covenant wasn't the one who actually brought down the Clave. In fact, he couldn't bring Gibbon down with the Wild Magic because it was black with venom and only fed the Raver's power. It was Honniscrave and Nom that ended up defeating the Raver. Also, he didn't put out the Banefire either. He gave himself a kind of caamora in it, which "fused" him with the wild magic and venom, thus paving the way for him to become the Keystone to the Arch of Time. It was Nom and Linden that put the Banefire out by releasing the waters of Glimmermere to flood the Sacred Enclosure.

Post by **Furls Fire** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 3:55 pm

ARGH!!

that was me

Post by **Prince of Amber** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:25 pm

Yeah - that's what I said - Earthpower incarnate put out the Banefire, and I said that the Clave would not have been defeated without the White Gold - Nom would not have been there without the White Gold, and I agree it was mostly down to Nom 'rending' (I love that expression) the Raver that allowed the defeat of the Na Mhoram.
Don't get me wrong, it obviously comes across that I'm dissing Mhoram and I'm not, I'll have to read Mhorams victory again tonight, one of my favorite chapters - of course stupid of me to forget the distruction of the staff of Law allowed the raise of the Clave

I just couldn't see the Lords standing up to the might of the Clave - Grim, Banefire etc.,

Post by **aTOMiC** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:37 pm

I believe that Mhoram found the calm center of the conflict between the Ritual of Desecration and his oath of peace. Similar to the steady ground that Covenant found in the paradox of white gold. It is my opinion that Mhoram was able to uniquely master the inherent danger presented by ROT and also preserve his oath as he saw it. Later he must have judged his new knowledge too perilous and chose to abandon it for the discovery and creation of new lore. Unfortunately that played directly into Lord Foul’s hands. Ooops.
I’ve often found it interesting to compare the attitudes of the differing philosophies practiced by opposing sides. The Lords armies were chiefly comprised of humans and those humans shared an unwavering compassion for each other. A fallen soldier would be assisted by his comrades at great personal risk, while a fallen ur-vile or cavewight would simply be trampled into the dust his peers. This applies to the differences between the Council and the Raver commanded Clave. Sooner or later Gibbon would simply run out of pawns/victims and the Lords would ultimately prevail by default. Bwahahahahah

Post by **Ryzel** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:50 pm

Fist and Faith wrote:I know you're saying "Just suppose..." but I thought it was interesting to note that the Clave and Council cannot exist at the same time. Either the Earthpower is corrupted, or it is not. If it is, then the Clave can exist, but the Council cannot, and vice-versa.

That is only partially correct. If you assume that the Sunbane has a definite geographical reach while Earthpower is available everywhere you could get a situation where both Lords and Clave co-exist and has power.

Post by **Ryzel** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:53 pm

Prince of Amber wrote:If I remember correctly it was the Oath of Peace which prevented the new Lords for achieving their potential, and because of that I don't think they would have been able to withstand the might of the Clave - Wasn't it Mhorams dark secret - he decided to abandon the Oath and this allowed his great victory - but maybe it was the new order which came about after the end of TPTP that allowed the birth of the Sunbane and the Clave - or was it the breaking of the Law of Death?? I wish Knew these books a bit better I must have read them a dozen times but still I forget.

It was mainly the destruction of the Staff of Law.

Post by **[Syl]** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:28 pm

Well, if the Clave gets to throw in the na-Mhoram-wists and all, I say the Lords get the Bloodguard. Let's see how the Clave does against more than just a handfull that know what they're going into.

Post by **Ryzel** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:32 pm

You might even say that this confrontation between the New Lords and the Clave has taken place. And of course we know the result already, or what?

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

The Clave vs. The Council

The Clave vs. The Council