Why does SRD make his job so hard? *FR spoilers*

[insect]

Remember in the first couple of poorly written thomas covenant chronicles when covenant had to spend about half the time unconscious or catatonic because SRD had endowed him with the Deus Ex Machina of white gold, and there had to be some reason why he didn't use it every time some difficulty was encountered?

The new series is much better written than the first two, but time travel? Come on. Time travel is the last resort of the desperate. Once time travel is introduced, nothing matters because do-overs are allowed. Lyndon destroys the world? no problem, the theomach or mahdoubt or covenant or joan or esmer or a million other people will pop into existence and lead her through some utterly nonsensical series of events that allows her to wind the clock back to do it again without shattering the arch of time. Instead of using the vehicle of time travel, the author ought to just write a prologue stating "Look, I think you people are fucking idiots. . ."

Didn't SRD learn from the first couple series to not screw himself with such improbable plot elements? If SRD uses time travel to wind back the clock and divert destruction, he'll have insulted my intelligence enough for me to throw the book in the trash and find something else to read.

[Vader]

If SDR is an incompetent author with a back catalogue of poorly written books why bother finding this forum and registering just to tell us you don't like it? Oh come on, get a life!

[wayfriend]

Welcome to the watch, insect! You're name suggests you like getting under people's skin. Your post does, too.

Donaldson has made it clear that changing history will destroy the Arch of Time. So I don't think you need to worry.

And Donaldson did say that this series was so hard to write that he could not even attempt it for twenty-five years. I'm sure the difficulties of creating a deep and remarkable story containing time travel as an element is one of his challenges. So far, it's been working out.

Oh, and Covenant didn't use the white gold in the earlier chronicles because he had moral issues, not because he was catatonic. If you don't understand that much of the Chronicles, probably nothing else will make sense either.

[insect]

"If SDR is an incompetent author with a back catalogue of poorly written books"

quit kissing SRD's ass. Foul's bane was his first book out of college, and it was poorly written and highly derivative of Tolkien. I only read finished those series at the time because I was under 15. However, his current covenant series is well written and shows a remarkable improvement in his writing. If you can't grasp that, stick to harry potter and piers anthony's Xanth series. The problem with this series is time travel. That's a cheap trick authors use that makes a story shitty.

"Oh, and Covenant didn't use the white gold in the earlier chronicles because he had moral issues"

No, he didn't use it because then it would have eliminated all conflict and suspense in the series, so srd invented implausible reasons and created an unrealistic psychology for covenant, and when that wore thin he just made him unconscious anytime a fight occurred.

"Donaldson has made it clear that changing history will destroy the Arch of Time. "

That means nothing. A bunch of the insequent travel back and forth at will, as does esmer, and they've already altered a considerable number of things with no ill effect (for instance- lyndon's appearance in berek's time caused the resulting tradition of the unfettered, which eventually led to anele- the purported last hope of the land). If the vehicle of time travel is available, the author can always create stupid reasons to break his own rules about time travel- as SRD has already done.

[Vader]

quit kissing SRD's ass.

Kissing ass gives me heartburn.

[dlbpharmd]

Insect, welcome to the Watch!

We're a community of fans who are dedicated fans of SRD and his writing, so don't expect to find agreement with your posts. I think this statement of yours:

A bunch of the insequent travel back and forth at will

indicates that you're not comprehending what you've read. Only 1 insequent has demonstrated time travel

Spoiler

The Mahdoubt.

And this statement:

No, he didn't use it because then it would have eliminated all conflict and suspense in the series, so srd invented implausible reasons and created an unrealistic psychology for covenant, and when that wore thin he just made him unconscious anytime a fight occurred.

indicates a lack of basic understanding of the central character. I'd suggest you read LFB again.

Lastly, comments like these:

quit kissing SRD's ass

are unnecessarily confrontational in nature, and as the moderator of this particular sub-forum, I'd greatly appreciate a more civil and respectful tone.

[Vraith]

Remember in the first couple of poorly written thomas covenant chronicles when covenant had to spend about half the time unconscious or catatonic because SRD had endowed him with the Deus Ex Machina of white gold, and there had to be some reason why he didn't use it every time some difficulty was encountered?

This paragraph indicates several things: You don't understand the character of Thomas Covenant, you don't understand the Land, you don't understand what Deus Ex Machina is, you don't understand white gold's nature or function.
So far, there are an equal number of misunderstandings in every other paragraph you've written as well.
Generally, people in these forums at least take a stab at justifying statements. Most of the issues you raise are already in the forums, with responses that are at MINIMUM worth reading.
Let me know if you don't understand them, either.

[Warmark]

[insect]

You're all wrong, so I'll answer a couple of you at the same time.

"Only 1 insequent has demonstrated time travel "

No, 3 have shown the ability to thwart time, so far. Mahdoubt- the theomach shows he understood history and knew what aspects to guard against, and was able to bring them to a time of his choosing. The Visard showed that he could "step outside" from time to kick all the haruchai's asses. Not only that, SRD has already set aside his rule that changing history will break the arch of time. Lyndon changed history drastically and caused the creation of the unfettered ones by going back in time she wasn't AN unfettered, she was THE FIRST unfettered.

"indicates a lack of basic understanding of the central character. I'd suggest you read LFB again. "

no thanks, reading LFB is just wasting time that you'll never get back, and I read the first 6 books over again before I started the new series because it had been so long since I read them the first time. Covenant didn't have a cohesive or believable psychology. He was a 2 dimensional cartoon because SRD didn't possess the subtlety as a writer necessary to deal with the effects of white gold and an anti-heroic personality. He's doing a much better job this time around with lindsay.

" You don't understand the character of Thomas Covenant, you don't understand the Land, you don't understand what Deus Ex Machina is, you don't understand white gold's nature or function. "

All your points are nonsense. You've never put any thought to the story from the writer's point of view. If he allowed covenant to use the ability of the ring, where would have been the struggle, the suspense? He gave covenant a ring that could heal anybody, kill anybody, defy time, protect time, protect any number of people from physical harm, etc. Because of that, he had to use lame devices to prevent covenant from using the ring, covenant's incomplete and contradictory psychology being one of those devices. He was a rookie author that shot himself in the foot multiple times and spent the rest of the series trying to deal with the shortcomings he'd created.

[Warmark]

You're all wrong.

I hate you more than i hate LINDEN.

[Vader]

You're all wrong.

I hate you more than i hate LINDEN.

You're wrong, it's Lyndon and stop kissing her ass, okay?

[Vraith]

All your points are nonsense. You've never put any thought to the story from the writer's point of view. If he allowed covenant to use the ability of the ring, where would have been the struggle, the suspense? He gave covenant a ring that could heal anybody, kill anybody, defy time, protect time, protect any number of people from physical harm, etc. Because of that, he had to use lame devices to prevent covenant from using the ring, covenant's incomplete and contradictory psychology being one of those devices. He was a rookie author that shot himself in the foot multiple times and spent the rest of the series trying to deal with the shortcomings he'd created.

You'd better read my posts [at least the ones that relate to the works] if you're going to tell me I haven't put any thought into it. And not one of my points was nonsense. For instance, and to be pedestrian about it, if I transported a leper/poet from 500 bc and gave him a laptop that allowed him to launch the entire nuclear arsenal, as soon as he could figure it out, would his/her lack of ability be a failure of character or psychology?
For another instance: Deus ex Machina, by definition, means that something "outside" the story is contrived to solve problems "inside" the story. White Gold is entirely "inside" the story, and in fact its use, in the ways you describe, would not solve ANYTHING, would in fact cause problems [and NOT external problems, problems integral to the story.
On TC's psychology: the whole point of a story, any story, is that people grow and change. If they don't, there is no point whatsoever. TC's shortcomings aren't "Gee, I screwed up with TC, how am I going to cover it up?" The shortcomings are the damn point.
And again, I point out: justify the criticism. We argue all over these forums about these kinds of things [there is an entire CULT dedicated to hating Linden]
Since you felt perfectly free to say "You're all wrong" [which, by the way, is leveled at people who have responded to you, and whom I know (from having read their posts) might agree with you on some points] I feel perfectly free to say "Why are you here?" (And also, "You're wrong" about the Insequent...you are conflating differing, limited abilities into one "it's all the same" category. You might as well say a haiku [any...pick one] is the same as "A Critique of Pure Reason." The only difference is the words.

[hearthrall antonicus]

I have found that I greatly value the opinions of the denizens of the watych. I fine fellowship with all of the people here,and whereas I do not always understand where their opinions come from , I will defend to the death their right to voice them, as long as it is done with fellowshiop and commitment to the Watches principles. However , this being said, I believe that the statements that insect wrote in his posts are to him ,at least, valuable in their own way, but not done with fellowship and comradery

[hearthrall antonicus]

Sorry about the misspelling ,by the way, I type badly when I am on my moral soap box

[insect]

"For instance, and to be pedestrian about it, if I transported a leper/poet from 500 bc and gave him a laptop that allowed him to launch the entire nuclear arsenal, as soon as he could figure it out, would his/her lack of ability be a failure of character or psychology? "

Irrelevant. What would be relevant is the way that you described the character. You could create a character that could realistically act in any number of ways, or the character could be poorly written and any choice it made would seem improbable. Covenant was poorly written because donaldson was a new author.

"Deus ex Machina, by definition, means that something "outside" the story is contrived to solve problems "inside" the story."

Not necessarily, though that is the way it was originally used in greek tragedy's (an all powerful god showing up and unraveling a hopeless situation. . .kind of like a guy with unlimited magical power showing up). A ghost in the machine can be anything that can disregard any other plot points and exercise complete control over the story in any manner it wishes. An all powerful magical items qualifies. However, even abiding by the strictly classical greek view of deus ex machina, covenant himself is still the ghost in the machine in those series- some guy outside of the world in question is zapped into the situation magically with the power to do anything.

"On TC's psychology: the whole point of a story, any story, is that people grow and change."

Yes, and SRD does an excellent job of that with multiple characters in the new series. Stave, Liand, Linden are all dynamic characters that are growing plausibly and intelligently as characters. Covenant never did that.

""You're wrong" about the Insequent...you are conflating differing, limited abilities into one "it's all the same" category."

Maybe. But there are still a bunch of people flitting across time and doing whatever they want with no damage to the arch of time. And that still doesn't change the fact that time travel is lame. For instance, linden went back and got the staff before kevin's dirt, so esmer will at some point in the next couple books admit that he helped her get the staff so that it wouldn't be around when he needed to create kevin's dirt. That means esmer had to understand a course the future would take and then go back and subvert it- an action that by SRD's rules would break the arch of time. Once people are traveling back and forth across time, anything can happen and everything's implausible.

[CovenantJr]

Ok, so you don't like the first two Chronicles. Everyone gets it.

Setting aside for a moment the question of why anyone would waste their time joining a fan site for something they don't like just to moan, isn't it about time you moved on to another discussion? This one isn't going anywhere.

[Orlion]

All your points are nonsense. You've never put any thought to the story from the writer's point of view. If he allowed covenant to use the ability of the ring, where would have been the struggle, the suspense? He gave covenant a ring that could heal anybody, kill anybody, defy time, protect time, protect any number of people from physical harm, etc. Because of that, he had to use lame devices to prevent covenant from using the ring, covenant's incomplete and contradictory psychology being one of those devices. He was a rookie author that shot himself in the foot multiple times and spent the rest of the series trying to deal with the shortcomings he'd created.

I find that his essay, "Epic Fantasy in the Modern World" (SRD's) points out what he has in mind as author of the Chronicles. You can read it at his website under Background, click on publications, and then the title that I've shown. There's a lot more to the chronicles then your run-of-the-mill fantasy quests...

Also, with Time Travel, how is Linden's becoming the first Unfettered changing history? Nothing in the timeline changed as a result, so I'm lead to believe that history wasn't changed (saying that Linden was the first Unfettered doesn't change history since it seems that no one knows who the first Unfettered was, leaving the possibility open that it could have been anyone from any time). Your problem seems more to deal with a "chicken-egg" problem, not history changing (but I'm probably wrong, huh? )

Being able to sense time does not equate time travel. (i.e. if I can see a bicyclist coming at me and knock him off his bike, that does not mean that I am a bicyclist). Stepping outside of time is not traveling either, since you are not going into the past or the future (like pausing a movie on a scene is not rewinding or fastforwarding).

And, as a side note to further understand your posts (since I'm as confused by them as you are of the Chronicles ) what would you consider to be good reading?

[Ur Dead]

He isn't getting any of mine WGDs..

[MsMary]

Sounds right to me, Ur Dead.

[Brinn]

I think he makes some interesting points and backs them with intelligent insights. His view is different than most of the people who post here but it still deserves to be taken seriously and not dismissed outright. So far it's been an interesting discussion.