Spoiler - how is the place of earthblood intact?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

My only problem with the entire Earthblood episode was that when Linden Commanded that she be shown the truth, she was not specific and should therefore have been shown all truths facing her and her situation at that time, especially regarding both Anele and Esmer. She should also have been shown the truth of the path she was taking.

That point provides a crucial link in a chain of evidence for a case I made in another thread. Linden's Command was leveled at beings not of the Land's Earth. Therefore, by the rules limiting the use of the EarthBlood, they could not have been Commanded to reveal any, much less all, truths. Being unaffected by the Command and thus retaining the power of choice, Roger chose to reveal the truth most devastating to Linden's psyche in order to propel her toward the most dangerous course possible: the use of white gold to defeat Roger and the croyel and most likely tearing down the Arch in the attempt.

[edited - I put some commas in for clarity.]

[wayfriend]

.. or perhaps because her command was "Show me the truth." So the command was limited to what could be shown; she saw Roger and Jeremiah as they really are.

The devil with the PoC is in the details: no one can forsee the ramifications of their commands. Linden was remarkably wise in choosing the command she chose. Something more all-encompassing could have had dire consequences. Because, as we all know, we need some illusions in order to get by. And, as TC tells us when speaking of the Dead, the truth "would probably kill us".

[thewormoftheworld'send]

.. or perhaps because her command was "Show me the truth." So the command was limited to what could be shown; she saw Roger and Jeremiah as they really are.

The devil with the PoC is in the details: no one can forsee the ramifications of their commands. Linden was remarkably wise in choosing the command she chose. Something more all-encompassing could have had dire consequences. Because, as we all know, we need some illusions in order to get by. And, as TC tells us when speaking of the Dead, the truth "would probably kill us".

I'm waiting for "Roger" and "Jeremiah" to strip off another mask to reveal some deeper identity. Perhaps Kasty and a skurj?

My belief about the PoC is that if none of the Old Lords partook of the EarthBlood then it must be a bad idea, for anybody, no matter who.

And so if Linden's Command had succeeded, then it should also have rebounded upon her due to lack of wisdom in choosing the proper Command.

Linden, throughout the Chrons, has not been characterized as possessing the wisdom necessary to make correct decisions in the Land. She has indeed been characterized as the one character who is doomed to carry the "idiot ball" wherever she goes. She was not remarkably wise, and she will never be remarkably wise, in the Land.

Linden's "idiot ball" maneuver at EarthRoot did have this one saving grace, however: although she lacked the knowledge even to create a decent Command, and this chance of a lifetime was completely wasted (like losing a top-prize winning lottery ticket), at least there will be no rebound effect as with poor Elena.

[aliantha]

Maybe SRD's goal in the Final Chrons is to bring Linden to the point where she *develops* remarkable wisdom.

[Vraith]

.. or perhaps because her command was "Show me the truth." So the command was limited to what could be shown; she saw Roger and Jeremiah as they really are.

The devil with the PoC is in the details: no one can forsee the ramifications of their commands. Linden was remarkably wise in choosing the command she chose. Something more all-encompassing could have had dire consequences. Because, as we all know, we need some illusions in order to get by. And, as TC tells us when speaking of the Dead, the truth "would probably kill us".

I'm waiting for "Roger" and "Jeremiah" to strip off another mask to reveal some deeper identity. Perhaps Kasty and a skurj?

My belief about the PoC is that if none of the Old Lords partook of the EarthBlood then it must be a bad idea, for anybody, no matter who.

And so if Linden's Command had succeeded, then it should also have rebounded upon her due to lack of wisdom in choosing the proper Command.

Linden, throughout the Chrons, has not been characterized as possessing the wisdom necessary to make correct decisions in the Land. She has indeed been characterized on the one character who is doomed to carry the "idiot ball" wherever she goes. She was not remarkably wise, and she will never be remarkably wise, in the Land.

Linden's "idiot ball" maneuver at EarthRoot did have this one saving grace, however: although she lacked the knowledge even to create a decent Command, and this chance of a lifetime was completely wasted (like losing a top-prize winning lottery ticket), at least there will be no rebound effect as with poor Elena.

Interesting. But I think a few things are true: she showed a modicum of wisdom by NOT choosing something world altering, but failed the first lesson [no one who doesn't already know all the answers should even attempt the power...know absolutely]. And, I think it DID rebound on her...the net effect of seeing the truth of Roger/Croye-miah has been to suppress the loving/healing portions of her personality, and reinforce the judgemental/by any means necessary portions. She's lost the lessons of the heart/soul the 2nd Chron.'s taught, but not those of power/action.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Maybe SRD's goal in the Final Chrons is to bring Linden to the point where she *develops* remarkable wisdom.

I don't see why you would even need scare-quotes for that word.
Because Donaldson often says in the GI that his characters develop. He denies that Covenant is an anti-hero on this basis. I wouldn't doubt, knowing how Donaldson thinks about this, that developing the ability to use power wisely is one goal for Linden's character, requiring four long books to get there.

Then she'll croak.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

.. or perhaps because her command was "Show me the truth." So the command was limited to what could be shown; she saw Roger and Jeremiah as they really are.

The devil with the PoC is in the details: no one can forsee the ramifications of their commands. Linden was remarkably wise in choosing the command she chose. Something more all-encompassing could have had dire consequences. Because, as we all know, we need some illusions in order to get by. And, as TC tells us when speaking of the Dead, the truth "would probably kill us".

I'm waiting for "Roger" and "Jeremiah" to strip off another mask to reveal some deeper identity. Perhaps Kasty and a skurj?

My belief about the PoC is that if none of the Old Lords partook of the EarthBlood then it must be a bad idea, for anybody, no matter who.

And so if Linden's Command had succeeded, then it should also have rebounded upon her due to lack of wisdom in choosing the proper Command.

Linden, throughout the Chrons, has not been characterized as possessing the wisdom necessary to make correct decisions in the Land. She has indeed been characterized on the one character who is doomed to carry the "idiot ball" wherever she goes. She was not remarkably wise, and she will never be remarkably wise, in the Land.

Linden's "idiot ball" maneuver at EarthRoot did have this one saving grace, however: although she lacked the knowledge even to create a decent Command, and this chance of a lifetime was completely wasted (like losing a top-prize winning lottery ticket), at least there will be no rebound effect as with poor Elena.

Interesting. But I think a few things are true: she showed a modicum of wisdom by NOT choosing something world altering, but failed the first lesson [no one who doesn't already know all the answers should even attempt the power...know absolutely]. And, I think it DID rebound on her...the net effect of seeing the truth of Roger/Croye-miah has been to suppress the loving/healing portions of her personality, and reinforce the judgemental/by any means necessary portions. She's lost the lessons of the heart/soul the 2nd Chron.'s taught, but not those of power/action.

She did not Command anything that might be world-shaking, not because she's so wise, but because she's so selfish in the pursuit of her goal. Or instead of saying "selfish" I could better say "narrow-visioned" and "obsessed."

I'm just trying to stay within the character as I understand her. And I think I showed in my previous post that if Linden showed wisdom with her Command, it was a complete accident. She missed by so wide a margin that there is no chance of a rebound effect. I agree that one could always say, as you do, that there was a rebounding effect, but only in the respect that everything we say and do impacts us one way or another. If Linden had unmasked them herself using wild magic, there would be the exact same rebound effect.

Remember when "Covenant" told her that with the Command Linden could have anything she wanted? That was a complete lie, and she didn't question this, even though her character is always skeptical (and yes she was skeptical of "Covenant's" statements at this time). Linden was simply not aware of the limits of the Command.

[wayfriend]

Occam's Razor suggests that the tower of teetering logic you're building to support the notion of an incompetent Linden is just not as plausible as the idea that Linden is doing a good job in a tough situation.

Linden chose a Command wisely because she had planned it for some time before she arrived. She is smart. She has health-sense and the Staff of Law to guide her. She's not scared of what the 'Root can dish out because she's kicked the Sunbane where the sun don't bane and can handle anything the Earth could rebound upon her. She's fully knowledgeable about what breaks Laws and why. In short, she's fully capable of making a wise decision.

If someone's going to beat the Command at it's game, who is it going to be? Linden, that's who.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Occam's Razor suggests that the tower of teetering logic you're building to support the notion of an incompetent Linden is just not as plausible as the idea that Linden is doing a good job in a tough situation.

Linden chose a Command wisely because she had planned it for some time before she arrived. She is smart. She has health-sense and the Staff of Law to guide her. She's not scared of what the 'Root can dish out because she's kicked the Sunbane where the sun don't bane and can handle anything the Earth could rebound upon her. She's fully knowledgeable about what breaks Laws and why. In short, she's fully capable of making a wise decision.

If someone's going to beat the Command at it's game, who is it going to be? Linden, that's who.

As the other poster stated, "Show me the truth" is too vague. Which truth should they show? Why not show any and all truths being concealed? There is nothing in the text to support the idea, let's say, that Linden knew they were wearing disguises or "glamours." So it's not like she had any specific truth in mind.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Occam's Razor suggests that the tower of teetering logic you're building to support the notion of an incompetent Linden...

At this point I'm not trying to prove Linden is incompetent, unworthy, etc. I am trying to prove that Roger and Jeremiah removed their own "glamours."

This argument rests on only two premises, so it's not exactly tall enough to be teetering. 1) The Command cannot affect those not of the Land's Earth, and 2) Linden's Command was too vague, there was no particular reason why only the truth behind the "glamour" should be revealed and no other.

It is not necessary to use Linden's incompetence or lack of wisdom as evidence in this case, as it is already established in the Chrons that nobody has the wisdom to use the Power of Command properly. I only stated that her incompetence was her saving grace, it saved her from the rebound effect of the unwise use of the Command.

But I have taken license with my own conclusion, obviously, by affirming that Roger is therefore a Magnificent Bastard. His skill at Xanatos Roulette is already apparent by this point in the book. But that doesn't convince even me. However, removing his own mask, without being Commanded, was a brilliant off-the-cuff strategy worthy of a Magnificent Bastard.

[aliantha]

Maybe SRD's goal in the Final Chrons is to bring Linden to the point where she *develops* remarkable wisdom.

I don't see why you would even need scare-quotes for that word.

They're not scare quotes. I'm just too lazy to type <b></b> when i'm using the Quick Reply box.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Maybe SRD's goal in the Final Chrons is to bring Linden to the point where she *develops* remarkable wisdom.

I don't see why you would even need scare-quotes for that word.

They're not scare quotes. I'm just too lazy to type <b></b> when i'm using the Quick Reply box.

On second glance I see those are asterisks above, not quotes. I wear 200 strength reading glasses and my monitor is a bit too far away.

[Illioas the Eternal]

I am a bit behind in this discussion but since I have just finished the book recently (it is actually the catalyst that lead me to this site) I feel I need to say something that came to me as I read her command. "Show me the truth", truth is a fluid thing at times and others it is rigid and unbending.

Which truth does she desire to be shown? Her own? Fouls? Her son's? Most of us really have a hard time seeing the truth of who we actually are versus who we want to be. I know I do so I make a shallow leap of logic when I say most of us do also.

The intent was great.... the words spoken were perfect.... my receiving mental picture left me wondering for several hours what really would happen if in fact I had the chance to partake of this rare liquid and I said “Show me the truth”. Could I actually handle my personal truths that I have hidden away inside me? Could I actually handle the stripping away of all my own mental defenses I have built up over a lifetime to deal with some of the ugly things I have seen and experienced?

Each of us filters experiences in our lives, we put them into categories in our minds... it is a survival mechanism that we use to simply go on after we are injured emotionally, mentally etc.... so I truly believe that she uttered the exact wrong thing to say unless she really knew herself much better than I dare say I personally do. It worked out in the end and I am firmly a fan of this series (having devoured the books several times in the course of my life) but it really caused me to think the logic through on this one.

Thank you for allowing me to pontificate on this but it really made me think when I read it.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I am a bit behind in this discussion but since I have just finished the book recently (it is actually the catalyst that lead me to this site) I feel I need to say something that came to me as I read her command. "Show me the truth", truth is a fluid thing at times and others it is rigid and unbending.

Which truth does she desire to be shown? Her own? Fouls? Her son's? Most of us really have a hard time seeing the truth of who we actually are versus who we want to be. I know I do so I make a shallow leap of logic when I say most of us do also.

The intent was great.... the words spoken were perfect.... my receiving mental picture left me wondering for several hours what really would happen if in fact I had the chance to partake of this rare liquid and I said “Show me the truth”. Could I actually handle my personal truths that I have hidden away inside me? Could I actually handle the stripping away of all my own mental defenses I have built up over a lifetime to deal with some of the ugly things I have seen and experienced?

Each of us filters experiences in our lives, we put them into categories in our minds... it is a survival mechanism that we use to simply go on after we are injured emotionally, mentally etc.... so I truly believe that she uttered the exact wrong thing to say unless she really knew herself much better than I dare say I personally do. It worked out in the end and I am firmly a fan of this series (having devoured the books several times in the course of my life) but it really caused me to think the logic through on this one.

Thank you for allowing me to pontificate on this but it really made me think when I read it.

Linden had become more and more skeptical as time went on, she began to suspect that certain truths were being concealed from her. My question has been: Why did she ask "show me the truth" and not "tell me the truth"? If Roger was trying to goad Linden into breaking the Arch of Time, that Command is the fastest way to it. But she happened to prove too powerful for them, Roger did not anticipate her resourcefulness.

[Illioas the Eternal]

"Why did she ask "show me the truth" and not "tell me the truth"?

Actually that is not a bad question at all...reveal the truth might have worked better. It really does go back to which truth is being shown?

Fouls truth is he wants to escape time and if he can't do that then he wants to destroy everything in the land to hurt the creator.

What is Roger's truth?

Linden's truth?

Nothing is ever simple... the reason I loved these books is that they were well written and they made me think....

If I uttered the words "show me the rtuth" what would happen?

[Illioas the Eternal]

If I uttered the words "show me the rtuth" what would happen?

LOL my mother would make me write truth 100 times for being fumble fingered when I write.....

[thewormoftheworld'send]

"Why did she ask "show me the truth" and not "tell me the truth"?

Actually that is not a bad question at all...reveal the truth might have worked better. It really does go back to which truth is being shown?

Fouls truth is he wants to escape time and if he can't do that then he wants to destroy everything in the land to hurt the creator.

What is Roger's truth?

Linden's truth?

Nothing is ever simple... the reason I loved these books is that they were well written and they made me think....

If I uttered the words "show me the rtuth" what would happen?

Well, she did direct her Command toward certain individuals.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

In the case of these individuals, the answer is simple when all the evidence is considered. A Chrons expert here pointed out that the Command cannot affect those not of the Land's Earth. So Foul, Roger, TC, and Jeremiah cannot be Commanded. Therefore Roger voluntarily showed Linden the Truth most conducive to his ends, that Truth which would cause Linden the most despair; and then he goaded her with words that would lead to the greatest explosion of power in order to cause a rupture in Time and break the Arch.

[Vraith]

the Command cannot affect those not of the Land's Earth. So Foul, Roger, TC, and Jeremiah cannot be Commanded. Therefore Roger voluntarily showed Linden the Truth most conducive to his ends, that Truth which would cause Linden the most despair; and then he goaded her with words that would lead to the greatest explosion of power in order to cause a rupture in Time and break the Arch.

I still don't think that's so. LF cannot, that's certain. White Gold itself probably can't either. [which may mean TC is/has been immune sometimes].
I don't think it applies to Linden, Roger, or Jeremiah.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

the Command cannot affect those not of the Land's Earth. So Foul, Roger, TC, and Jeremiah cannot be Commanded. Therefore Roger voluntarily showed Linden the Truth most conducive to his ends, that Truth which would cause Linden the most despair; and then he goaded her with words that would lead to the greatest explosion of power in order to cause a rupture in Time and break the Arch.

I still don't think that's so. LF cannot, that's certain. White Gold itself probably can't either. [which may mean TC is/has been immune sometimes].
I don't think it applies to Linden, Roger, or Jeremiah.

Maybe I should clarify my statements. The idea was to cause a paradox in Time. This is known from the Mahdoubt whom Linden met in Garroting Deep after she emerged from Skyweir.