I'm sure that this has come up before. Anyway ...
Samual R Delany's Neveryon series is overrun with gay characters.
Steven Erikson's Malazan series has a few.
No gays in the land?
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High Lord Tolkien
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The Haruchai might be all gay.
We've never seen their women.
Sure they talk about them but it could just be a front.
And we all know what the "one tree" really meant.
We've never seen their women.
Sure they talk about them but it could just be a front.
And we all know what the "one tree" really meant.
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jacob Raver, sinTempter
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Boy would that suck to be the first Haruchai who thought a gay thought...*ooh, I wonder* ... (kick to the head, castration by grip) ... *disgusting*High Lord Tolkien wrote:The Haruchai might be all gay.
We've never seen their women.
Sure they talk about them but it could just be a front.
And we all know what the "one tree" really meant.
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Orlion
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jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:Boy would that suck to be the first Haruchai who thought a gay thought...*ooh, I wonder* ... (kick to the head, castration by grip) ... *disgusting*High Lord Tolkien wrote:The Haruchai might be all gay.
We've never seen their women.
Sure they talk about them but it could just be a front.
And we all know what the "one tree" really meant.
Classic! Just pure...classic!
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[Syl]
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To get back to the subject at hand, the strange thing about the Chronicles isn't that there are no gay characters in the books; it's that sexuality plays so little part in the them. And this isn't a bad thing. It really heightens the importance of Lena's rape or Alena's taboo attraction. I'm fairly confident, though, that even those two events have larger, non-sexual meaning concerning identity and violation or guilt and power.
The fact is, Donaldson wasn't telling a sexual story. Heck, even the second chronicles is a pretty weak romance, strictly speaking. These kinds of questions weren't really that important. The fact that Mhoram could've been gay has less to do with textual ambivalence than his sexuality being a blank slate due to irrelevance (though I imagine you could work with Mhoram choosing the solitary life in pursuit of his own vision).
Meanwhile, the most dominant feature of Covenant's identity, his leprosy, is a perfect metaphor for homosexuality. His ex takes away his son, he is shunned by society, the law regarding his own rights and safety for living the way he wants to live is dismissive and sometimes hostile, he's perceived as being 'unclean,' and he's impotent, i.e., emasculated. To be crude, he can no longer have sex with women, though he can still be penetrated. There's also the whole thing with going to bars, getting into trucks with strangers, the weird religious revival event, and so on. Only in some magical land where people don't judge him does he find acceptance and power. And the first thing he does to prove he's a man is... Imagine if it had been Triock that had guided Covenant from Kevin's Watch. I don't think the books would've been published.
So is Covenant gay? I don't think so. I think it's just a hallmark of good writing that the things he goes through have such interstitiality with so many human experiences. In that sense, the Chronicles are as much gay fiction as they are straight.
The fact is, Donaldson wasn't telling a sexual story. Heck, even the second chronicles is a pretty weak romance, strictly speaking. These kinds of questions weren't really that important. The fact that Mhoram could've been gay has less to do with textual ambivalence than his sexuality being a blank slate due to irrelevance (though I imagine you could work with Mhoram choosing the solitary life in pursuit of his own vision).
Meanwhile, the most dominant feature of Covenant's identity, his leprosy, is a perfect metaphor for homosexuality. His ex takes away his son, he is shunned by society, the law regarding his own rights and safety for living the way he wants to live is dismissive and sometimes hostile, he's perceived as being 'unclean,' and he's impotent, i.e., emasculated. To be crude, he can no longer have sex with women, though he can still be penetrated. There's also the whole thing with going to bars, getting into trucks with strangers, the weird religious revival event, and so on. Only in some magical land where people don't judge him does he find acceptance and power. And the first thing he does to prove he's a man is... Imagine if it had been Triock that had guided Covenant from Kevin's Watch. I don't think the books would've been published.
So is Covenant gay? I don't think so. I think it's just a hallmark of good writing that the things he goes through have such interstitiality with so many human experiences. In that sense, the Chronicles are as much gay fiction as they are straight.
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jackgiantkiller
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Krazy Kat
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There is of course, Winhome Gay. I'm surprised noone has mentioned this character!
I'd never really thought about just how important a role she plays in the Chronicles.
Wether intentionally or unintentionally, she tormented Covenant with her sexuality and to such an extent that he was forced to confront his guilt concerning the rape of Lena. I don't think Covenant fully understood the ramifications of his crime until Winhome Gay stood before him at the campfire.
The events that followed this - the calling of the Ranyhyn - suggest (to me) that Covenant had finally understood just how vulnerable he had been, on his entrance to the Land. Lord Foul's first attack on him had been directed straight at his sexuality. Covenant raped Lena to prove to himself that he wasn't gay, and in doing so he became a victim - just like Pietten - and of course, Lena.
*fuse lit, awaits incoming*
I'd never really thought about just how important a role she plays in the Chronicles.
Wether intentionally or unintentionally, she tormented Covenant with her sexuality and to such an extent that he was forced to confront his guilt concerning the rape of Lena. I don't think Covenant fully understood the ramifications of his crime until Winhome Gay stood before him at the campfire.
The events that followed this - the calling of the Ranyhyn - suggest (to me) that Covenant had finally understood just how vulnerable he had been, on his entrance to the Land. Lord Foul's first attack on him had been directed straight at his sexuality. Covenant raped Lena to prove to himself that he wasn't gay, and in doing so he became a victim - just like Pietten - and of course, Lena.
*fuse lit, awaits incoming*
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peter
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Krazy Kat wrote:Lord Foul's first attack on him had been directed straight at his sexuality. Covenant raped Lena to prove to himself that he wasn't gay
No incoming Kat I promise, but a couple of questions.I don't understand the first sentance of the above quote about Fouls attack being directed straight at his sexuality. What is that about? Second - I thought (perhaps nievely) that TC's rape of Lena occured as a result of his pent up sexual frustration due to his long term impotence and the sudden release thereof (ie due to the hurtloam curing his leprosy induced impotence and the sudden ability to 'perform' contiguous with the presence of a highly attractive girl who he didn't even believe to be real).
Was I wrong in thinking this - did I miss the true underlying story (I fully admit to the possibility, I'm by no means always the sharpest pencil in the box!
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Hi peter,
You're certainly not wrong about Covenant losing control because of his renewed health-sense. I just think there's more to it than meets the eye. I think it's a crying shame what happens to Lena, but, I'm forever trying to view it from another angles.
If the rape of Lena had happened in any other novel then I guess I would just have to accept the fact, deal with it, and move on. But the Chronicles has Lord Foul! I can't help seeing Foul at the root of what happens to Lena - and Covenant. That's why I see two victims here.
Ringthane's Choice is a fascinating chapter. And so is Winhome Gay.
In the early part of the chapter Covenant dreams he is being manipulated into performing a sexual act, by a satircal puppeteer. I find this really interesting!
Again, I think what Covenant sees in the coals of the campfire is much more than what is apparent on the surface. I'm inclined to think it has a lot to do with 'Gay', as it does with his guilty revelations concerning Lena.
The scene with Covenant holding Pietten and the Ranyhyn running around them in a circle, (like a surreal carousel) is iconic!
BTW, I have a very bad habit of taking wild guess' at things in order to persue an avenue of thought, which I might add, usually turn into a dead end . 
sorry!
You're certainly not wrong about Covenant losing control because of his renewed health-sense. I just think there's more to it than meets the eye. I think it's a crying shame what happens to Lena, but, I'm forever trying to view it from another angles.
If the rape of Lena had happened in any other novel then I guess I would just have to accept the fact, deal with it, and move on. But the Chronicles has Lord Foul! I can't help seeing Foul at the root of what happens to Lena - and Covenant. That's why I see two victims here.
Ringthane's Choice is a fascinating chapter. And so is Winhome Gay.
In the early part of the chapter Covenant dreams he is being manipulated into performing a sexual act, by a satircal puppeteer. I find this really interesting!
Again, I think what Covenant sees in the coals of the campfire is much more than what is apparent on the surface. I'm inclined to think it has a lot to do with 'Gay', as it does with his guilty revelations concerning Lena.
The scene with Covenant holding Pietten and the Ranyhyn running around them in a circle, (like a surreal carousel) is iconic!
BTW, I have a very bad habit of taking wild guess' at things in order to persue an avenue of thought, which I might add, usually turn into a dead end
. sorry!
dANdeLION wrote:That's odd, I could have swore that Hile Troy asked Covenant if he'd ever visited a Turkish prison.....and we all remember how Hile kept asking Covenant for his ring. Not to mention how Cail kept finishing Brinn's sentences; the secret glances between those two.....and, of course, who could forget the aptly named giant, Oakrod Bumthruster? Then there's all those times Birinair asked Lord Mhoram if he could "touch his staff". Also, though it's not well documented, most Lords agree that the sixth ward mainly consisted of Kevin's 8-track tape collection of Wham, Culture Club, Indigo Girls, and Milli Vanilli.
Oakrod Bumthruster..... As Oakrod Bumthrusters Mate would say "My Side and Jaws Hurt" however with me its from Laughing so hard
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jacob Raver, sinTempter
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.....When the books were first written being gay was less welcome into storylines or Movies, SRD took a big chance with the rape of Lena by itself.....when you look at the entire chronicles it doesnt go into detail about TC and linden actually having sex neither does it describe the act between Pitchwife and the First..but it is Implied. I cannot recall anywhere in the Chronicles about two men or women retiring to the same chambers etc. but if anyone in the land did not hide their Gayness... it had to be Amok... though Amok reminds me more of the Monkey King...from the movie Forbidden Kingdom, and strangly enough the Staff he used was Rune carved Reminding me of the Staff of Law without Heels..
To get back on topic, Of course there were gay people in the land, can you name one land or continent that does not have Gay people? though its less practiced its still there. Lets say there were gays in the land.... would they not be Very much so more accepted there than they have been in our world? It seems to me that a place like the Land Gayness would not be looked at strangely,.. I can imagine the only concern they would have would be that no children came out of the partnership...then again there are always parent-less children needing a place to be.
So i say..yep..there were probably almost surely gays in the land, if you consider the ratio of Gays to Straight people in most societies and then consider how small the Lands Population is, you might only have one gay couple for every stonedown/woodhelvin etc.. of course my numbers could be off ... but just a guesstimation.
To get back on topic, Of course there were gay people in the land, can you name one land or continent that does not have Gay people? though its less practiced its still there. Lets say there were gays in the land.... would they not be Very much so more accepted there than they have been in our world? It seems to me that a place like the Land Gayness would not be looked at strangely,.. I can imagine the only concern they would have would be that no children came out of the partnership...then again there are always parent-less children needing a place to be.
So i say..yep..there were probably almost surely gays in the land, if you consider the ratio of Gays to Straight people in most societies and then consider how small the Lands Population is, you might only have one gay couple for every stonedown/woodhelvin etc.. of course my numbers could be off ... but just a guesstimation.
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SoulBiter
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Mercedes Lackey wrote some books with the lead character as a Gay male.
Magic's Pawn, 1989 (ISBN 0-613-63053-X)
Magic's Promise, 1990 (ISBN 0-613-63055-6)
Magic's Price, 1991 (ISBN 0-613-63054-8)
Magic's Pawn, 1989 (ISBN 0-613-63053-X)
Magic's Promise, 1990 (ISBN 0-613-63055-6)
Magic's Price, 1991 (ISBN 0-613-63054-8)
etc etc etcThe story starts with Vanyel Ashkevron at sixteen, the heir to a great estate, Forst Reach. However he doesn't measure up to what his father Lord Withen deems to be a "proper" man. Withen decides to send Vanyel away to school in Haven, the capital of Valdemar, under the supervision of Vanyel's Aunt Savil.
Savil initially has little interest in him because he has no psychic or magic powers, but realizes Vanyel is not as arrogant as Withen has described. Vanyel finds schooling at Haven more suited to his physical and mental nature, but is told he doesn't have the Bardic gift, and so cannot become a true Bard. Feeling he's lost his lifelong dream, he drifts into depression.
Vanyel begins to have feelings for Tylendel, one of Savil's protegés. Van learns that Tylendel is shay'a'chern, or homosexual. Eventually, they become lovers and later find they are lifebonded. This lifebond with 'Lendel produces the first happy time in the boy's life. Tylendel introduce Vanyel to Gala, his companion which is the intelligent horse spirit who bond with Heralds.
We miss you Tracie but your Spirit will always shine brightly on the Watch 
hmmm... Anne McCaffrey actually has quite a few References to Gay Couples also ..mostly Dragon riders who rode a female/Green Dragon.. and some blue dragonriders, possibly even a Brown or Bronze though i cannot be sure without going back. not alot but mentions of how some of the Male Green Riders prefer the company of men as a mate.SoulBiter wrote:Mercedes Lackey wrote some books with the lead character as a Gay male.
Magic's Pawn, 1989 (ISBN 0-613-63053-X)
Magic's Promise, 1990 (ISBN 0-613-63055-6)
Magic's Price, 1991 (ISBN 0-613-63054-8)
etc etc etcThe story starts with Vanyel Ashkevron at sixteen, the heir to a great estate, Forst Reach. However he doesn't measure up to what his father Lord Withen deems to be a "proper" man. Withen decides to send Vanyel away to school in Haven, the capital of Valdemar, under the supervision of Vanyel's Aunt Savil.
Savil initially has little interest in him because he has no psychic or magic powers, but realizes Vanyel is not as arrogant as Withen has described. Vanyel finds schooling at Haven more suited to his physical and mental nature, but is told he doesn't have the Bardic gift, and so cannot become a true Bard. Feeling he's lost his lifelong dream, he drifts into depression.
Vanyel begins to have feelings for Tylendel, one of Savil's protegés. Van learns that Tylendel is shay'a'chern, or homosexual. Eventually, they become lovers and later find they are lifebonded. This lifebond with 'Lendel produces the first happy time in the boy's life. Tylendel introduce Vanyel to Gala, his companion which is the intelligent horse spirit who bond with Heralds.
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danlo
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I sure the Caitiffin had to be at least a closet gay, I mean just look that title and look at his name: Rire Grist! I can see just see Ru Paul playing him in the movie.
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fall far and well Pilots!
