Did we not?

[amanibhavam]

This the answer the Old Beggar gives Covenant when he says something akin to "Come on, old man, we did not create this world."
Now I wonder: is this just an ironic answer, hinting that the Old Man is truly the Creator of the Land/Earth, or does it imply that somehow TC _also_ had something to do withe the World's creation? For if TC=Foul, then maybe also TC=Creator...

[Zephalephelah]

Two things.

personally, I find this trend of making half-spoken subject lines such as this one "did we not?" to be deceiful above all else. It is an intrigue which gets us here to look at the post but if the subject line was good enough then we would look at it anyway. Now we have to look at it just to see what it means.

Hey, I'm not picking on you. I'm picking on the development of a cliche' I've been seeing in far too many forums. If you have something interesting to say then it can be explained in the subject line. If you can't do that then you are succumbing to some new cliche' of typing half of something which in the end equals nothing at all. Much like the many other subject lines we see in other forums that state things like "So, I was thinking...."

Why would I want to join that discussion at all? Everyone thinks. Why not express yourself plainly and be up front. Say, I was thinking that Thomas is the creator. That in itself is far far more powerful a calling and would get people to join your conversation. If you didn't mean that then I didn't get what you meant because it wasn't clear. I'm not mad at you, I'm mad at this assinine development of subject threads that I've been seeing as a bunch of vagueness which could mean anything. If there is something to say, please say it plainly. This trendiness is a bad thing to follow.



Second, I don't think that Thomas Covenant is a creator. He sees the creator, the creator talks to him. It is two seperate entities.

[Fist and Faith]

I take that as meaning, of course humans made the world. No, not the actual rocks, dirt, water, etc, but people certainly created the state that cultures and societies find themselves in. And most aspects of our individual lives were arrived at through our own decisions and actions.

But since this is a fantasy series, your more literal thought might be correct. And if Covenant becomes Foul in some literal way in the Final Chrons, maybe he'll become the Creator too.

[Landwaster]

How does it compare to TC's eventual epiphany that whether the Land is real, or it is not, doesn't matter?

Because if it was a dream, it'd be a world of his own creation. Isn't the beggar really hinting at "does it matter?"?

[amanibhavam]

Hm, thanks for the rebuff, Zephalephelah. I hope my past contributions to this board outweigh this present sin of mine.

[birdandbear]

Don't worry Amy, you couldn't be as offensive as me. I have a tendency to name my threads after appropriate song lyrics.

[danlo]

Zephalephelah you need to chill out and keep your nose out out this topic if it offends you so. Amy is one of the oldest and most respected members on this board, You just joined-show some respect!

[Skyweir]

Z .. i find an obscure thread title a lot less offensive .. than being .. umm offensive

You said you werent personally nitpicking amy .. and thats truly excellent .. but I happen to think that Amy's thread raises an interesting a valid discussion point .. and is in no way assinine imho ..

It is far better to make a point respectfully and politely .. especially when taking an opposite position to the one made .. and .. lol .. it is generally far better received also .. even if you strongly disagree!

As for misleading thread titles .. there arent really any rules to such things .. and making them creative is not usually about misleading members .. once you open a thread .. if you like it then its your choice to join the discussion or not ..

As for this thread .. LOL .. imho .. if the theory .. cos it is just a theory .. that TC= Foul .. then why not TC = The Creator ..

if Foul is a representation of the dark side of TC on some level .. and then er go .. mayhap also the dark side of the Creator as well .. some relationship between the 3 characters is a logical assumption.

I think SRD has in made it clear that Foul and TC on some level are one .. now what actually this oneness means is debatable imho .. Personally I have never been happy with the theory that the land is a figment of TC's subconscious .. or imagination .. and that Foul is the representation of TC's dark side .. his alteer ego ..

but if this is the case .. I see no reason then why this theory then cant extend to the Creator also .. then .. being a part of TC's imagination .. also be a part of TC's psyche .. a representation of TC's creative self .. his positive self ..

[W.B.]

I'm with F&F, that the basic meaning is people create the societies and cultures in which they live, their "worlds." That's the main thing, I think, though there are other levels. The Creator's response, once we learn who he is, is also of course ironic, coming from him, and it seems to be referring to the idea of taking responsibility--humans have to do more than just "live in it," as Covenant tells the Creator/old beggar. He starts off just living in the Land, trying not to take responsibility or change things, but slowly he comes to feel responsible--even too much so, arguably, in the Second Chronicles.

The passage in question, just for fun:

"So young-and already so bitter."

Covenant had not heard sympathy for a long time, and the sound of it affected him acutely. His anger retreated, leaving his throat tight and awkward. "Come on, old man," he said. "We didn't make the world. All we have to do is live in it. We're all in the same boat--one way or another."

"Did we not?"

[aTOMiC]

After reading the Chronicles a few times I've become comfortable with the notion that Foul, Creator & TC are connected by a common inter dimensional bond but are not truly different parts of a whole. The very fact that Lord Foul and the Creator were able to influence events outside the boundaries of the Land is clear evidence in my mind that certainly the Land is real in its own sense, (parallel dimension and so on) and that the Creator & Lord Foul are independent beings apart from TC. Within the flow of a certain universal or cosmic constant I agree that the three share something integral but are unique and separate personalities. Clear as mud? Okay then.

[dlbpharmd]

After reading the Chronicles a few times I've become comfortable with the notion that Foul, Creator & TC are connected by a common inter dimensional bond but are not truly different parts of a whole. The very fact that Lord Foul and the Creator were able to influence events outside the boundaries of the Land is clear evidence in my mind that certainly the Land is real in its own sense, (parallel dimension and so on) and that the Creator & Lord Foul are independent beings apart from TC. Within the flow of a certain universal or cosmic constant I agree that the three share something integral but are unique and separate personalities. Clear as mud? Okay then.

I think I see your point - a connection b/w Foul, TC and the Creator as you describe puts me in the mind of the Christian concept of the Trinity - one Godhead composed of three distinct personalities.

I can imagine this being the case. However I can also see it from another view point: Imaging a spectrum along with good and evil are measured, with absolute good being to one side (the Creator) and absolute evil 180 degrees away, absolute evil (Foul.) I see TC in the exact middle, the point of neutrality if you will, but capable of acts moving him towards either end of the spectrum.

[Fist and Faith]

clearfrontier,
(everybody else bear with me )
What you said, and maybe because it was you and your Iron Man av saying it, got me to thinking... Maybe Covenant is the Land's Galactus. He is the balance between the Creator (since he is a creator of sorts with his books) and Despite (what with being filled with self-loathing, bitterness, raping Lena, etc). He plays the same role as Galactus, a role that may become more clearly defined in the Last Chrons. Eh? Ya think?

[Dragonlily]

SRD says in EPIC FANTASY IN THE MODERN WORLD:

Put simply, fantasy is a form of fiction in which the internal crises or conflicts or processes of the characters are dramatized as if they were external individuals or events. Crudely stated, this means that in fantasy the characters meet themselves -- or parts of themselves, their own needs/problems/exigencies -- as actors on the stage of the story, and so the internal struggle to deal with those needs/problems/exigencies is played out as an external struggle in the action of the story.

In other words, What you said, Amani.

[Furls Fire]

Awesome quote, Joy!

[Fist and Faith]

But SRD doesn't let people get healed as easily as some. I saw a comic book character go into his own mind and confront his own inner demons, which appeared as dark versions of himself. When he defeated them all in combat - which seemed like physical combat to him, he was free from them when he went back to his regular state of consciousness. What a deal!!! What a cop-out!! You want to be free of that kind of crap inside you? WORK FOR IT!! Covenant sure didn't have it that easy!! And if given the chance, he would have refused, saying, "That's too easy."

[Zephalephelah]

LOL! I didn't realize this was a group of cliques where you couldn't say what you felt. I said I wasn't attacking her but the cliche' of half-spoken subject lines to draw you in deceptively to figure out what the hell the poster is really saying.

If you have a post entitled "How does the Krill really work?", then you know what its about.

But if you have one that says, "Ever notice how SRD has a knack for..."
then you have to go into the thread just to find out what the poster is even going to talk about. I find this practice deceptive and annoying. That's what I'm saying.

But now that I've been attacked for expressing my views I'm finding that no matter what I say people are disagreeing with it because I don't seem to fit into the cliques here. I find this extremely shallow & rather pathetic. I thought that this board was a place for people to share their love for some books written by SRD not to have little groups mobbing up on someone because their views differ from others.

Anyway, you can do with this knowledge how you see fit. I doubt that this little analysis is going to change things. I just find it subpar. And sometimes when you point out immature, playground, highschool behavior, those responsible take a look in the mirror and are more careful and become more open minded, accepting differing views instead of jumping down someone's throat because they didn't agree with you.

[hierachy]

But now that I've been attacked for expressing my views I'm finding that no matter what I say people are disagreeing with it because I don't seem to fit into the cliques here.

Your wrong, Zeph, Dam wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[hierachy]

By the way, that was a joke(Just worried that it might be taken seriously(Yeah, like I'd ever be taken seriously))

[Skyweir]

I can imagine this being the case. However I can also see it from another view point: Imaging a spectrum along with good and evil are measured, with absolute good being to one side (the Creator) and absolute evil 180 degrees away, absolute evil (Foul.) I see TC in the exact middle, the point of neutrality if you will, but capable of acts moving him towards either end of the spectrum.

this is brilliant imho .. and a very compelling analogy for the assertion that these 3 characters are one .. or variables of the one

[aTOMiC]

clearfrontier,
(everybody else bear with me )
What you said, and maybe because it was you and your Iron Man av saying it, got me to thinking... Maybe Covenant is the Land's Galactus. He is the balance between the Creator (since he is a creator of sorts with his books) and Despite (what with being filled with self-loathing, bitterness, raping Lena, etc). He plays the same role as Galactus, a role that may become more clearly defined in the Last Chrons. Eh? Ya think?

Why not? Covenant Ringthane, devourer of worlds!