"I don't belong there"...

[Barnetto]

Shoot me down on this (I know you are going to!), but I just didn't necessarily get how TC turned down the Creator's offer for him to live out his life in the Land at the end of TPTP quite so quickly and easily.

The reasons that TC gives are that that "I don't belong there" and "You'll drive me insane".

OK, I know he doesn't "believe" in the Land's existence - but given what happened to him at the start of TPTP, he doesn't seem to have a lot to lose by staying on. For all he knows, he's going to be dead soon enough back in the real world in any event - he's done himself a lot of damage before he gets summoned and has probably been left out in the woods with snake venom in his system. He may not "belong" in the Land, but "hellfire" he doesn't seem to fit into his real world any better.

The insanity argument is, of course, one he has used consistently throughout the First Chronicles. But earlier it is used to ensure that when he does inevitably return to his real world he hasn't lost the power to deal with his leprosy in the only way he has learned how. He can't afford to feel healthy, cos back in the real world it's going to kill him (through false hope). But that doesn't seem to have much force when you are talking about staying on for ever....

My take, for what it's worth, is that instinctively he associates staying on with dying in his real world - after all he's gone through in the Land (quite possibly in his mind), he doesn't want to die. But if he says yes to staying on, it is (or at least risks being) tantamount to his real life mind/body giving up - so if if he says yes then he gives up on his real life, which means he dies and his mind dies too. And if the Land is just a construct of his own mind/dreams then.... the risks are too high.

Or has his experience in the Land given him real hope that he can turn things round back in his world (despite all the external hatred and rejection he suffers and has no reason to believe will stop being thrown at him)? And, of course, by now he has learned that hope is actually important and (presumably) that he shouldn't have to quell all hope to cope with his leprosy....

[Vader]

He fits into in the real world as he was born into it. I can perfectly understand him and I would have chosen the same. I'd rather stay sane in real life (how hard it may be)and face whatever comes my way then live a fantasy. Escapism has never cut it for me.

[Orlion]

Shoot me down on this (I know you are going to!)

Anywhos, back to the topic at hand. I think a lot of the "insanity" has to do with the point that his answer to the paradox of that Land's existence lies in its uncertainty. Living in the Land and not going back to the real world would through this uncertainty out the window (in his mind).

Another line of thought: Maybe the uncertainty would never go away. If he elected to stay in the Land, he may always have to live with the fear of one day waking up in pain in the real world just long enough to die...I think that would be sufficient to drive someone mad!

[Vader]

Plus he has learned that beautiness (and the love of it) is dangerous, yes even deadly for a lepper. The images of the other rotting guy at the leprosarium made him become aware of the dange that lurks in dreams and false hope. He's become an absolute realist. Nerves don't renegerate and once a lepper always a lepper. If you give up that principle you're dead - even if make yourself believe you live on healthy in a fantasy.

[peter]

Yes - he clearly had reached some kind of internal acommodation with what was happening to him and to the reality or otherwise of the land - but real or not it could NEVER be more than a dream to him; hell - he had raped a child there - he needed to get back to his own world where such deeds were only the stuff of dreams.

[BellTelephoneCompany]

He never wanted to be a great hero or saviour, and above all I don't think he trusts himself to live on in the Land as the great messiah, and probably the new High Lord. The adulation and power, plus his disbelief - after so many years of isolation and impotence in the real world - would drive him mad. He'd turn into Caligula if he stayed, and the people of the Land would have no idea how to deal with or stop him.

Even worse, they probably wouldn't even want to stop him, because of who he is, and what he's already achieved for them.

In fact, I think he knows that if he stayed, he would turn into another Lord Foul, another all-powerful corrupting influence from outside. Why the Creator can't see that is puzzling.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

In fact, I think he knows that if he stayed, he would turn into another Lord Foul, another all-powerful corrupting influence from outside. Why the Creator can't see that is puzzling.

(jaw drops)

Brilliant...now that would make for an interesting story.

[Orlion]

He never wanted to be a great hero or saviour, and above all I don't think he trusts himself to live on in the Land as the great messiah, and probably the new High Lord. The adulation and power, plus his disbelief - after so many years of isolation and impotence in the real world - would drive him mad. He'd turn into Caligula if he stayed, and the people of the Land would have no idea how to deal with or stop him.

Even worse, they probably wouldn't even want to stop him, because of who he is, and what he's already achieved for them.

In fact, I think he knows that if he stayed, he would turn into another Lord Foul, another all-powerful corrupting influence from outside. Why the Creator can't see that is puzzling.

Excellent Post! Keep 'em coming!

[Kalkin]

Not if the Creator always knew he would not stay. The Creator knew Covenant, probably made him the way he was. I'd say it was a safe bet on his part.

In a way, Covenant would not view the Land the way we do. We see the Land full of wonderful people and experiences. Covenant saw the Land full of dangers and pitfalls. The best people he had met twisted and destroyed, sometimes by his own hands. On top of that is Foul, who he somewhat knew had not been destroyed. Leprosy is something he knows. As awful as it is, he owns his disease, can deal with it without any dramatic sacrifices. That Land always left him shredded and empty. Why would he stay?

[peter]

Not if the Creator always knew he would not stay. The Creator knew Covenant, probably made him the way he was. I'd say it was a safe bet on his part.

...and a clever one because that way TC would know that HE had made the choice to come home and would not be bitter or unhappy thinking about what could have been in the Land.

Also, agree with Orlion - BellTelephones post (above) is a very good one!

[Krazy Kat]

Covenant learned how to put trust in hope so that even if hope dies his trust gives him the compensation that only a leper can take value from.

He still loved Joan and who would give up the love for a son. He also learned in Foul's Creche how to turn his bad manuscript into something better if only for himself.

Time moves faster in the Land and I think the real world however mundane it might get is one of the most precious things we have.

edited:tues 16th

I completely forgot to credit this post to BellTelephoneCompany. It was the idea of trust that got me thinking.
Also, in the GI I've noticed that SRD isn't too keen on discussing the Creator's role in his stories. Maybe the Creator offered Covenant a full and happy life in the Land simply as a final test, which Covenant found tempting and extremely seductive decides to decline. The Creator is glad Covenant passed the test and monkeys with the anti-venom, jiggles around the mechanics of this that and the next thing granting Tommy a full pardon, without ribbons bells and tickertape HOORAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Covenant is deaf to it. But his mind has pushed him beyond the limit so he decides to be the Creator and with a numb thumb rubs out THE END

[BellTelephoneCompany]

Not if the Creator always knew he would not stay. The Creator knew Covenant, probably made him the way he was. I'd say it was a safe bet on his part.

I've never been sure that the Creator made our world too - I kind of thought that it would defeat the purpose of the Creator not being able to meddle in his own creation if he could actually create or mould Covenant for the specific purpose of defeating Foul. It may sound dumb, but I thought there might be a couple of Creators, who ocassionally hang out together, and that the Creator of our world gave Covenant to the Creator of The Land on loan.

The Creator of The Land had to be taking a risk on Covenant, at every point, otherwise it wouldn't have worked. I don't think there were ever any safe bets. Even The Creator had to be unsure whether or not TC would "save or damn The Land" - in order to allow him free will - and maybe that included the time afterTC had defeated Foul for the first time.

In a way, Covenant would not view the Land the way we do. We see the Land full of wonderful people and experiences. Covenant saw the Land full of dangers and pitfalls. The best people he had met twisted and destroyed, sometimes by his own hands. On top of that is Foul, who he somewhat knew had not been destroyed. Leprosy is something he knows. As awful as it is, he owns his disease, can deal with it without any dramatic sacrifices. That Land always left him shredded and empty. Why would he stay?

I agree with that entirely. Covenant was terrified of The Land and what it asked of him and did to him - he never really had any good times there at all, and probably his only good memories were of Foamfollower, Mhoram, and Andelain. Everyone else made impossible demands of him, either to love them or save them. We as readers enjoyed it all, but not TC.

But he still used all his power, and risked his very self, to save The Land from destruction anyway. He found that he loved it even though it had caused him little but pain and fear. That's another part of the paradox.

I'm rambling on a bit now, but I'm glad you all liked the post. The Covenant-becomes-Foul/Ghaddi/Kemper as High Lord idea could turn into a decent bit of fanfic, but would definitely annoy a lot of fans!

[wayfriend]

I don't think the Creator was gambling when he asked Covenant if he wanted to stay.

The whole over-arching character arc for Thomas Covenant in the first Chronicles was that he learned to value who he was - he found his strengths and understood his weaknesses and figured out where he needed to stand within himself to be effective.

He didn't want to live in the Land for the simple reason that he was now capable of living in the real world, and wanted to do so.

Yes, he didn't want to live out his days as a hero, as in the end he did it for himself more than for the Land, and didn't feel he deserved such reknown. But I think that's a secondary reason.

Yes, he allowed that the Land might not be real (as well as allowed that the Land might be real) and did not want that paradox resolved. Again, I think that's secondary, because it didn't matter anymore.

No, the ending says it all.

He was a sick man, a victim of Hansen's disease. But he was not a leper - not just a leper. He had the law of his illness carved in large, undeniable letters on the nerves of his body; but he was more than that. In the end, he had not failed the Land. And he had a heart which could still pump blood, bones which could still bear his weight; he had himself.

As much as Covenant had become a hero, he had also become someone who accepted his leprosy and understood how to live with that, instead of despite that. All that personal success would mean nothing if he stayed in the Land, where his leprosy was "magically" removed.

[BellTelephoneCompany]

He didn't want to live in the Land for the simple reason that he was now capable of living in the real world, and wanted to do so.

The reason I have trouble with imagining the bolded part to be true is that Covenant is so messed up (already) at the very start of the Second Chrons - though, of course, Lord Foul had already found a way to target him in the real world, through Joan, by that point. So his state of mind and body is understandable.

But the "Something Broken," statement he makes early in the Second Chrons suggests to me that he still thought of himself, even before Joan's reappearance, and after his first victory over Foul, as a man who had lost everything.

It doesn't sound like he's really reconciled or accepted much at all, or that he has come to easy terms with anything in the real world through his experience in The Land. I'm not saying he hasn't learned anything - but he's maybe learned that he was right all along.

I kind of like the idea of a character who has no arc at all - who starts off stubborn, intransigent, and contradictory, and who ends up saying"See. I was right!" That kind of non-arc would usually only be seen in a villain, but maybe this is an example of it in an anti-hero, like with Captain Ahab?

"You are the White Whale!"

The ending says it all.

He was a sick man, a victim of Hansen's disease. But he was not a leper - not just a leper. He had the law of his illness carved in large, undeniable letters on the nerves of his body; but he was more than that. In the end, he had not failed the Land. And he had a heart which could still pump blood, bones which could still bear his weight; he had himself.

As much as Covenant had become a hero, he had also become someone who accepted his leprosy and understood how to live with that, instead of despite that. All that personal success would mean nothing if he stayed in the Land, where his leprosy was "magically" removed.

But... his heart could pump blood and his bones could bear weight at the start of LFB as well. What's changed?

I'm being facetious, I know what you mean... he has transcended what the doctors told him in the Leprosarium - that he was now purely a Leper, a being made solely out of his illness, whose continued existence was not a life but a matter of routine and discipline and habit and eternal vigilance. Like a Bloodguard.

And he realises he is still a man. You're right.

ON EDIT: Talking about these books just reminds me that they are the finest fantasy novels I have ever read, and amongst the best literature (yes, literature) I have ever read too. Thank you everybody here, and thank you Mr. Donaldson!

[peter]

Talking about these books just reminds me that they are the finest fantasy novels I have ever read, and amongst the best literature (yes, literature) I have ever read too.

I fully agree on this but is it just us (and I include most if not all members of this forum) that thinks so. If Donaldson is so good, why is his name not known by all as a result of frequently being on the lips (and in the columns) of the literati - why is he not up there with Amis, Rushdie et al, feted by university proffesors and high culture journo's alike?

[Blackhawk]

Being a leper and knowing that i was going back to being cut out of any type of human contact outside doctors and lawyers, I would choose insanity in the land over the almost sure possibility of being driven insane in our world world by the lack of any human contact, and everyone wishing you would either die or move away.

I would have stayed , and chose to slather myself in as much hurtloam as it took to cure my land based insanity. im sure Mhoram could have figured something out to ease my mind too.

BTJM (but thats just me)

Talking about these books just reminds me that they are the finest fantasy novels I have ever read, and amongst the best literature (yes, literature) I have ever read too.

I fully agree on this but is it just us (and I include most if not all members of this forum) that thinks so. If Donaldson is so good, why is his name not known by all as a result of frequently being on the lips (and in the columns) of the literati - why is he not up there with Amis, Rushdie et al, feted by university proffesors and high culture journo's alike?

Im not sure why hes not up there..he definately should be (and im my mind he is) but I think that alot of people cant get past the rape. If all the people who have started reading the books and stopped because of that rape had kept on reading they might think so too.

[Orlion]

Talking about these books just reminds me that they are the finest fantasy novels I have ever read, and amongst the best literature (yes, literature) I have ever read too.

I fully agree on this but is it just us (and I include most if not all members of this forum) that thinks so. If Donaldson is so good, why is his name not known by all as a result of frequently being on the lips (and in the columns) of the literati - why is he not up there with Amis, Rushdie et al, feted by university proffesors and high culture journo's alike?

I'm sure that we diehard fans do place these works up on a pedastal... but I think there's something else too. These books aren't popular now because what it offers is not wanted by the general populace at large now. People do want stories with depth, but not the kind that in the end there's enough ambiguity to have several discussions over.

Also, as a word of comfort, Edgar Allen Poe (yes, that one) was not recognized as the literary genius that he was until years after his death. For William Blake, it may have took a couple hundred years. He may not be universally recognized now, but at least Dr. Donaldson is greatly appreciated by us, the greatest of all fans!

[peter]

These books aren't popular now because what it offers is not wanted by the general populace at large now.

I was not so much thinking of 'popularity' here, Orlion so much as to whethter the books constitute 'high literature' as it would be recognised in university English Literature courses.

[ninjaboy]

well if they're doing Tolkien in there supposed 'high literature' courses then the door is wide open for everyone.. Except maybe Phillip Pullman and David Eddings.

[peter]

well if they're doing Tolkien in there supposed 'high literature' courses then the door is wide open for everyone.. Except maybe Phillip Pullman and David Eddings.

Tolkien had the slight advantage of being a proffessor within those hallowed walls of Literature as of course did Lewis (not sure about Peake), but yes I can see Terry Brooks 'Shannara' series posing some pretty deep conundrums for future students to mull over (like why was it ever published )