psychology vs. reality of the land

[tomposer]

Hi,
I'm new, so sorry if this is really noob-like. I've almost finished Fatal Revenant, and I've completed all the other books in the series over the past decade or so.

Something which has always eluded me - and this is probably the intent of SRD - is whether The Land is as real as real can be, or whether it's somehow a ramification of the "real world" character's psychologies.

There's support for both possibilities: Firstly, the fact that multiple persons in the 'real world' partake in the same experience of The Land supports (perhaps necessitates) the realness of The Land.

However, there are also clear links between psychological states of real-world characters, and events in the land: For instance, Joan's actual seizures seem to be The Land's magical ceasures, which occur during Linden's visit. This is a single example of many which support the idea that the land's existence hinges on the psychological state of the real-world people; not to mention the many metaphores the land offers for one or another 'real world' character's psychological state.

So which is it, and why? Or, is it both? Most importantly, if it is both, how can it be both?

There are so many confounding factors regarding the above, it's hard to ever know precisely what's going on

I just can't get past my perplexedness on this issue, and it keeps drawing me back to read novel after novel! I really hope SRD has something satisfying to say about this between here and where the series ends!!

I hope I've put this in the right forum.

Many thanks!!

[lorin]

Hi tomposer and welcome!

From my perspective, the perception of reality or unreality (is that a word?) are the core of the Covenant series. As long as Covenant/Linden don't know, why should we, the readers, know? Sometimes ignorance IS bliss.

We all create our own realities anyway, don't we?

[High Lord Tolkien]

I'm on the whole "It's a dream" side.

The fact that there are supposed additional real world characters interacting with the Land-verse is meaningless if TC has been dreaming from the very beginning and has yet to wake up.

I'm hoping that everything and everyone in the Land-verse is some manifestation on TC's mental experiences in real life.

I've speculated that any reference to any time line in relation to TC's life might be false.
A dream can originate from any time in the past or future.
Jumping 3 or 4 thousands years at a time isn't hard to do in a dream.

Of course the importance of Linden in the last 2 books makes my idea difficult.

And I'd love it at the end if we found out that the Dreamer was in fact Joan.

[tomposer]

Here's another interesting thing relating to this.

Mind you, I've not yet gotten to the end of Fatal Revenant, so I don't know if this changes or not, but...

Even though, from Linden's perspective, six people from her world (including Hile Troy) have seemed to have taken part in the experience of the land, as yet none have discussed it in their own real life. TC never looked up Hile Troy when he returned (that galled me). Linden, once returned, never got to properly communicate with Covenant. The real-life characters communicating about The Land only happens whilst they are in The Land. I think that's interesting...

It's as if Donaldson is drawing out at least the possibility that the land is an entirely mental thing, perhaps even just something in Linden's mind (which, if not probable, is at least conceivable).

Several characters sitting and discussing the land in their real life would give a sort of concrete reality to The Land, and more importantly, it's peoples and their interactions with the real world characters.

Even as yet, the characters of The Land seem slightly less than corporeal. Their significance as real people (that is, real as TC or Linden) is a) unconfirmed by interactions between real world characters; b) not made explicit by the narrator: SRD only speaks about the point of view of the main character - TC's and Linden's emotions are thoroughly communicated - but the emotions of the others are only spoken about from the perspective of the main character or vicariously experienced; and c) undermined by their transience - every time a main character leaves for a while the other characters seemingly get old and die.

This isn't a criticism by any means. On the contrary, it keeps drawing me back to discover more, so it's a good ploy by the author. It gives the whole series a sort of etherealness.

I just hope I'm provided some sort of satisfaction about all of this by the conclusion of the series. Imagine, for example, what a spin-out it would be if characters from The Land were summoned to Haven Farm! (Not that I necessarily think that's what SRD should write )

[High Lord Tolkien]

I think I remember TC trying to find if Hile Troy really worked where he said he did but wasn't able to.
Either he didn't exist or his security clearance didn't allow that info to be released.

But the biggest thorn in our dream idea is this.
Joan mentions at the beginning of Runes that she knows that TC goes to "another place where he's important and that if she fails Roger will have to go" (or something like that).
WTF?

[danlo]

Yes, most definitely, TC called the State Dept. or the Pentagon and was told that either they could not release that information, or had no record of him. The latter, probably, being the case.

[tomposer]

Ah yes, I'm getting recollections of this now... thanks for reminding me. Although I recall I was miffed about Donaldson allowing us to go on with no firm conclusion about what the land is.... (no doubt exactly as he intended to).

[ninjaboy]

I'm suprised to see that no one (yet) has voted that they believe the land to be just a sheer illusion...