I like Vain, but I like Nom too....
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peter
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I like Vain, but I like Nom too....
I like Vain, but I like Nom too. The question is - who would win in a fight. I guess theres only one way to find out. FIGHT!
The truth is a Lion and does not need protection. Once free it will look after itself.
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
When Findail turned into a sandgorgon he was barely able to knock vain off the cliff face with a full charged attack. I think if Vain were capable of free thought and action poor Nom wouldnt have a chance. Now if Nom had possession of some theurgy or able to wield a staff or Rukh then it would be Vain who was in trouble. but since Nom is limited to brute force I recall Linden saying that the entire company of Giants could not move Vain with Block and Tackle if he did not wish to be moved.
it would be an awesome show though if Vain were capable of physical action only and his Vader like ability to choke or crush someones heart from a distance were not available. IMO
it would be an awesome show though if Vain were capable of physical action only and his Vader like ability to choke or crush someones heart from a distance were not available. IMO
Ah, a classic question that never gets old. First, let me say I like both Vain and Nom as well. They are two of the most mind-blowing beings in all the Chronicles.
I would agree with Blackhawk. If Vain were to focus all of himself on Nom, I don't believe the Sandgorgon would last very long. I'm not sure what difference it would make if Nom was armed with something. If Vain did his rupturing-the-heart-from-a-distance trick, how would Nom stop that? It's not something you can deflect like lightning bolts or fire. Not saying the Sandgorgon couldn't fight back if he had some sort of magic, as Blackhawk says. I'm just curious as to how. When Vain is crushing your face or Vader is crushing your throat, you don't have a lot of time to think up an appropriate defense before you're a corpse on the ground.
I would agree with Blackhawk. If Vain were to focus all of himself on Nom, I don't believe the Sandgorgon would last very long. I'm not sure what difference it would make if Nom was armed with something. If Vain did his rupturing-the-heart-from-a-distance trick, how would Nom stop that? It's not something you can deflect like lightning bolts or fire. Not saying the Sandgorgon couldn't fight back if he had some sort of magic, as Blackhawk says. I'm just curious as to how. When Vain is crushing your face or Vader is crushing your throat, you don't have a lot of time to think up an appropriate defense before you're a corpse on the ground.
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peter
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With the battle currently evenly matched (4 votes apiece) it is still anyones game, but can I say guys I think you underestimate Nom. 'Because Findail dressed up as Nom could not shift Vain' is a red herring; Findail dressed up as Nom remains Findail (I cannot write great classical music by dressing up as Mozart if you get my drift), and Nom is a being of raw power - not a flesh and blood being even in the sense that Vain is; Vain could after all be injured as was shown on a few occasions. No - I beleive the only power that could subdue Nom was that of Covenants and that is why the myth rightly said any 'being' that could best a sandgorgon would live forever - and I use the word being lightly - because no being in the normal sense could.
The truth is a Lion and does not need protection. Once free it will look after itself.
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
Even if Nom battered Vain with all his might, I think Vain would just be knocked down/backwards, not injured. However, if Nom somehow did manage to rupture Vain's 'subliminess', Vain would likely heal himself be absorbing sunlight, just like he did when the Elohim tried to melt him. And as long as there is sufficient sunlight, Vain will continue to regenerate himself. At least, that's my understanding of his abilities.
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peter
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Meanwhile Nom, in the red corner, is battered back onto one (backwardly pointing) knee.......
(54 -46% in favor of vain!)
(54 -46% in favor of vain!)
The truth is a Lion and does not need protection. Once free it will look after itself.
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
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High Lord Tolkien
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Nom.
TC said that Vain was impervious to the Sunbane because it wasn't directed at Vain personally but that the Clave could destroy Vain because the Clave would concentrate their power and rip him to pieces (not an exact quote).
Nom on the other hand is the epitome of concentrated localized power. Directed at Vain Nom would batter him into splinters faster than he destroyed Revelstone's gates.
(And who says Nom even has a heart like we're familiar with?)
(And when Findail turned into a "Sandgorgon" it was to smash Vain off the cliff, which was effective. Vain couldn't stop a Sandgorgon then.)
And.......a handful of Sunbane warped ur-Viles could destroy Vain!
TC said that Vain was impervious to the Sunbane because it wasn't directed at Vain personally but that the Clave could destroy Vain because the Clave would concentrate their power and rip him to pieces (not an exact quote).
Nom on the other hand is the epitome of concentrated localized power. Directed at Vain Nom would batter him into splinters faster than he destroyed Revelstone's gates.
(And who says Nom even has a heart like we're familiar with?)
(And when Findail turned into a "Sandgorgon" it was to smash Vain off the cliff, which was effective. Vain couldn't stop a Sandgorgon then.)
And.......a handful of Sunbane warped ur-Viles could destroy Vain!
https://thoolah.blogspot.com/
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
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Vraith
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It seems to me that Vain is pretty much invulnerable to physical punishment, and can root himsels [remember when he was sticking straight out from the dromonds deck while it was keeled over sideways?]
OTOH...I don't think it's possible, but I get a cool image in my head when I think of Nom battering away at Vain, finding his "frequency," and Vain vibrating and shaking, till he explodes in a huge misty rain of black stuff.
OTOH...I don't think it's possible, but I get a cool image in my head when I think of Nom battering away at Vain, finding his "frequency," and Vain vibrating and shaking, till he explodes in a huge misty rain of black stuff.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
On balance, Vain. Vain is invulnerable to anythng except theurgies (such as those of the Clave, the Elohim and the warped ur-viles) which are aimed directly at deconstructing him. Unless Nom has access to such powers (which we can't rule out - many of SRD's peoples and creatures have ineffable abilities), Nom would, at best, be limited to thumping away ineffectually.
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peter
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Nom comes back with a blistering attack (HighLordTolkein, Vraith and Wayfriend) but Vain counters driving low blow after low blow into Noms unprotected groin (DrPaul). 
The truth is a Lion and does not need protection. Once free it will look after itself.
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
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Vraith
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....then stumbles back in confusion...either Nom is female, or maybe his...er...equipment is retractable, to protect it from chafing desert storms.peter wrote:Nom comes back with a blistering attack (HighLordTolkein, Vraith and Wayfriend) but Vain counters driving low blow after low blow into Noms unprotected groin (DrPaul).
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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peter
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Vraith wrote:Oooohhh! Those chafing desert storms!peter wrote: maybe his...er...equipment is retractable, to protect it from chafing desert storms.
The truth is a Lion and does not need protection. Once free it will look after itself.
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'
We are the Bloodguard
peter wrote:Vraith wrote:Oooohhh! Those chafing desert storms!peter wrote: maybe his...er...equipment is retractable, to protect it from chafing desert storms.
Vain suprising everyone speaking and in a dirty harry voice he said, while holding up his fist, "This fist is part of the SOL, the most powerful fist in the Land, and it can blow your retractable parts clean off. Now, you must ask yourself one question: Do you feel lucky? Well do you, punk?
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Vraith
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[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
I stand by what I said, that if Vain focused all of himself on Nom, the fight wouldn't last very long. Obviously if Nom caught Vain while in his passive, "goofy grin" stance, then yes, the Sandgorgon would have opportunity to do something. Though it would still be a process of trial and error, as suggested by Vraith: battering Vain until his "frequency" was found - assuming that even applies to Vain. In which case, Vain would still have time to "wake up" and defend himself (if he chose to do so).
On the other hand, if Vain were attacking, I don't believe he would need much time at all to "figure out" what made Nom or any Sandgorgon tick. I assume that Vain, being what he is, could discern quite quickly the nature of whatever being/thing he was confronting. I will concede that Vain might not be able to subdue Nom instantly. It even took Covenant some time, but he did it through blind, brute force. What I'm proposing is that Vain could skip that guessing. With the speed of thought, he would have his plan of attack ready.
On the other hand, if Vain were attacking, I don't believe he would need much time at all to "figure out" what made Nom or any Sandgorgon tick. I assume that Vain, being what he is, could discern quite quickly the nature of whatever being/thing he was confronting. I will concede that Vain might not be able to subdue Nom instantly. It even took Covenant some time, but he did it through blind, brute force. What I'm proposing is that Vain could skip that guessing. With the speed of thought, he would have his plan of attack ready.
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wayfriend
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Nom is destruction incarnate. If you deconstruct the word destruction (heh), you see it is the antithesis of structure. So: Nom was made by the Creator to be Vain's nemesis.
Not so, Vain. Sure, he's good against puny humans. Maybe even some brain-damaged ur-viles. But we know he's not so great against the big guys. The Clave. Elohim. And Nom's a Big Guy. No one can crush his heart with one hand. No one can rip off his face. He's way too tough for that stuff.
Someone said only theurgy can be effective against Vain. That's not in the book as far as I know. Anything directed specifically at him can get him. And Nom is very specific.
Vain was almost done in by a fiery river. The only thing that ever stopped Nom was the White Gold Weilder.
As long as no Elohim interferes by healing Vain, Vain would lose.
Not so, Vain. Sure, he's good against puny humans. Maybe even some brain-damaged ur-viles. But we know he's not so great against the big guys. The Clave. Elohim. And Nom's a Big Guy. No one can crush his heart with one hand. No one can rip off his face. He's way too tough for that stuff.
Someone said only theurgy can be effective against Vain. That's not in the book as far as I know. Anything directed specifically at him can get him. And Nom is very specific.
Vain was almost done in by a fiery river. The only thing that ever stopped Nom was the White Gold Weilder.
As long as no Elohim interferes by healing Vain, Vain would lose.
.
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High Lord Tolkien
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Anybody have some free time to reference all of Vain's reported abilities and limitations?
MM makes a strong case but I always read Vain to be....less that that. I know he is the ultimate ur-Vile so yeah, that makes him a total badass but i never in the got the impression that he was a badass, more like a Batman rather than a Superman character as far as power levels go.
(In before someone posts that with enough prep-time Batman could.....)
MM makes a strong case but I always read Vain to be....less that that. I know he is the ultimate ur-Vile so yeah, that makes him a total badass but i never in the got the impression that he was a badass, more like a Batman rather than a Superman character as far as power levels go.
(In before someone posts that with enough prep-time Batman could.....)
https://thoolah.blogspot.com/
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
[Defeated by a gizmo from Batman's utility belt]
Joker: I swear by all that's funny never to be taken in by that unconstitutional device again!
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Vraith
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Remember that Vain, though harmed, escaped the home of the Elohim and survived...thought it was a close thing, it also wasn't just one Elohim after him either...also, in the end Findail was incapable of escaping him.
Also, while the blows of the Haruchai didn't kill Nom, they did have effect...and Vain is physically superior to the Haruchai, has other powers as well...I'd rather be a sandgorgon than Vain...but I don't think a Sandie can take him out.
Also, while the blows of the Haruchai didn't kill Nom, they did have effect...and Vain is physically superior to the Haruchai, has other powers as well...I'd rather be a sandgorgon than Vain...but I don't think a Sandie can take him out.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.