I don't think I fully "get it"

[enthralled]

Hello one and all,
I, like most of you I am sure, find TCTC to be one of, if
not, my favorite series. I came across this post on amazon the
other day and I would like some feedback on it if possible because I
have never looked at the land as an extention of Convenant's mind
and body:

"This series is not about a fantasy land within which Covenant travels, such as other fantasy books dictate - yes, it is a story of a man who travels through the Land, however it is mostly about what happens to a person (physically, emotionally, mentally) who contracts and suffers with leprosy. The Land was Covenant, literally. When you look back at the characters, at the nuances of the Land, at the abilities of the Lords and such, and then put these details to the variety of physical aspects of the body, you can see a whole other series and story taking place."

I have read and re-read the whole series maybe 8-9 times I don't know but I have never looked at it in the way that this person who wrote the quote describes it. Can someone please point out the obvious to me so that next time the next book arrives (3rd in the last chronicles)and I get another chance to re-read the whole series, I would love to be able to see it in this whole different aspect...if it exists that is...

Will I ever "get it"?

[soft one]

Basically the Land was created when Covenant was born, and was fertile up until he contracted his leprosy, which coincides with when Lord Foul revealed himself.

I've seen other posts on the subject from people better versed in the topic than I am, so perhaps one of them can enlighten us both.

[Fist and Faith]

Don't worry about it, enthralled. It ain't necessarily so. We often have fun discussing such ideas. What event in Covenant's life coincides with the Ritual of Desecration? Which coincides with the Haruchai taking the Vow? What event in the Land happened because of his learning that he had leprosy, which because of the amputation, and which because of Joan leaving with Roger?

But it could be that none of that is correct. Just fun to think about. It could be that Covenant actually translates to a different plane of existence; for various reason does not believe it is real; and, for various reasons, decides to fight for it anyway. That is what TCTC is about.

And Welcome!

[wayfriend]

It's human nature to find associations, especially when one is sure that they're there.

The author's intent was that the Land be the opposite of leprosy - health incarnate. He has spoken words to that effect. This sets up the necessary confrontation of Covenant with himself - his internal problems manifested as external problems in the Land.

[Zarathustra]

Wow, it's been a long time since I posted in this forum. All the best discussions were years ago.

Here is one thread among several good ones that discussed the reality of the Land.

[Vraith]

Yea...as said above, it ain't necessarily so. That view certainly provides a
metaphorical/analytic framework for looking at the story, and leads to some interesting stuff, but it's also pretty reductive.
The 2 most obvious ways this is so:
1) the basis of the statement "what happens to a man with leprosy." The leprosy is not only a simple fact of the work/character, it is in itself a metaphor.
2) [the really really obvious one] You can read the entire work, delve deeply into it, understand all the major themes, without even considering that viewpoint.

[dlbpharmd]

Here's a question that I posed to SRD several years ago, and his response:

Don (dlbpharmd): Mr. Donaldson, as many have said above, thank you for writing my all-time favorite story, and thank you for continuing that story. I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for Runes to be published!

It seems, particularly in the 1st Chronicles, that so much of what is happening to Covenant physically is mirrored in the Land. For example, when his leprosy is at its worst, the Land is suffering under Foul's winter. My question: Is there any correlation between the onset of Covenant's leprosy and the enacting of the Ritual of Desecration?

When I planned the first "Chronicles," the relationship between Covenant's leprosy and the Land's plight was foremost in my mind. In fact, I designed the Land as a reverse reflection of Covenant's dilemma; and as the story progressed I consciously brought those two opposing images closer together until they were virtually superimposed.

However, the specific detail that you're asking about never actually crossed my mind. It's embarrassing, really, since it seems so obvious now that you raise it. But I didn't think of it for the same reason that I can't write prequels: as I suggested in an earlier answer, all of my attention is focused *forward*, on the ending. So I set up my reflections and then pursued their implications. I never asked myself about the implications of what might have happened *before* my starting point.

Everything that I've ever created about "the past" in any of my stories is there because it helps me get where I'm going: it doesn't exist for its own sake. In this important sense, if in no other, the Land is less "real" than, say, Middle Earth. Its history does not exist independent of "current events."

(04/13/2004)

[Zarathustra]

Classic GI question/answer! It's amazing how many of the things you guys have written over the years are still etched in my brain.

I can't wait for the next book. It's been too long since I've had a TC fix.

[Relayer]

When you look back at the characters, at the nuances of the Land, at the abilities of the Lords and such, and then put these details to the variety of physical aspects of the body, you can see a whole other series and story taking place."

I pretty much agree with the other posters here, and of course with Donaldson's comments. But still, it would be interesting to know what associations the person who posted on Amazon saw.

And Enthralled, if you've read the series 8-9 times, I think you *do* get it!!

[wayfriend]

But still, it would be interesting to know what associations the person who posted on Amazon saw.

Alas, the reviewer does not say which bodypart goes with which location. Here's the whole review.

Let's Get Down to the Nitty Gritty, December 5, 2006

By: A Rose by Any Other Name (You Aren't Here ---->)

This review is from: The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever (Paperback)

I've read all of the reviews here and have something to say to those with negative opinions of this series: for those of you who have relayed your reviews succinctly, I respect your collective opinions. This series is not for everyone. But to those who's reviews seemed to reflect confusion, please give this series another try. You obviously did not 'get it.'

This series is not about a fantasy land within which Covenant travels, such as other fantasy books dictate - yes, it is a story of a man who travels through the Land, however it is mostly about what happens to a person (physically, emotionally, mentally) who contracts and suffers with leprosy. The Land was Covenant, literally. When you look back at the characters, at the nuances of the Land, at the abilities of the Lords and such, and then put these details to the variety of physical aspects of the body, you can see a whole other series and story taking place.

Covenant was the Land. Though it is dreary and somewhat tiresome to read, the first book - Lord Foul's Bane - is the most important. It is where you, the reader, learn all you need to know about leprosy. Apply all that you learn there to the rest of this series, and the next three books, and you have a deeper understanding of Donaldson's genius.

BTW: on a side note, Donaldson - a master of language - spent some time in India with his father, who worked very closely with lepers. His experiences there shine through in this series.

The follow-up series' first book - The Runes of the Earth - follows the same pattern as this sets of series, except instead of leprosy the story follows a more psychological approach, mainly psychosis. I am anxious to read the next three books in the final series of this epic.

When I read this series and the series that followed, I was so stunned by everything - the story, the characters, the method of Donaldson's writing - I could read nothing else for a year. It was roughly 12 months later that I finally broke down and bought the Myth series by Robert Aspirin to 'clean my pallet' so that I could once again read a serious fantasy series.

And know that this series was written well before most of the fantasy series you have probably read.

[Relayer]

Thanks for digging that up WF!

[Fist and Faith]

I can't wait for the next book. It's been too long since I've had a TC fix.

Indeed! It's been 27 years since we had a TC fix!

[peter]

Wow, it's been a long time since I posted in this forum. All the best discussions were years ago.

No, No, No. No doubt there have been many fine discussions in the past - but new people always bring fresh ideas to any forum of discussion. I have only been a member for a year or so and have rarely ventured beyond this forum (as I recently discussed with Wayfriend) and the threads that I have read or been actively involved in have always been great fun and occasionally truly outstanding.

Re the hypothesis that The chrons are just an externalisation of what TC is experiencing in his leperous state - I don't buy it (but I agree that it is fun to consider it and see what connection can be made ). I think Wayfriends comment re authorial intent sums it up pretty fully - and would I not be correct in thinking that by the end of the second Chrons we have pretty firm evidence (but I wish I could put my finger on exactly what it is) that the Land is for real.

[Zarathustra]

Wow, it's been a long time since I posted in this forum. All the best discussions were years ago.

No, No, No. No doubt there have been many fine discussions in the past - but new people always bring fresh ideas to any forum of discussion ... I think Wayfriends comment re authorial intent sums it up pretty fully - and would I not be correct in thinking that by the end of the second Chrons we have pretty firm evidence (but I wish I could put my finger on exactly what it is) that the Land is for real.

I'm fully aware of WF's position on this issue (unless it has changed). We've debated that in excruciating (and sometimes exhilarating) detail. That's one of the reasons I said the best discussions were in the past. Wayfriend has always been a big part of that.

Of course, this could just be my perception because I've already said just about everything I can possibly say on this subject. Give yourself another 5000 posts and get back to me on whether you think there's still something important to say on this issue.

[enthralled]

Thanx to you all for your great feedback. And yes Relayer, after reading the series(and having had to re-buy those paperbacks that seem to fall apart after 3 or so readings) many times, I do get it and it seems that my interpretation of the story correlates with everyone else's. That is to say, apart for when Foul and TC battle it out and TC is shown the land decomposing as if it were rife with leprosy, I don't see any relationship besides TC's disease and the Land's condition. Nor do I see the Lords reflecting TC's condition as in that amazon quote. I wish that I could ask the original writer if he/she could elaborate on that but it seems you have to buy something on amazon b4 they let you post. Thanx wayfriend for showing the full quote from amazon as I should of done originally so that it is taken in context. As for the original quote which I based my thread on, I was simply curious and mostly, I was trying to squeeze more enjoyment out of this fantastic series than I already had if that were in any way possible! ha!

Being enthralled whilst reading TCOTC is pure bliss....

BTW: does anyone own any hardcover copies of the original two series and if so, do they stand up to many readings or do they fall apart like their paperback cousins?

[Vraith]

BTW: does anyone own any hardcover copies of the original two series and if so, do they stand up to many readings or do they fall apart like their paperback cousins?

I have 4 of the first six in hardcover. Both series' are much much more durable than the paperbacks. [the paper is beige-ing, but not crumbling/dessicating, and the spines are just fine]

[High Lord Tolkien]

BTW: does anyone own any hardcover copies of the original two series and if so, do they stand up to many readings or do they fall apart like their paperback cousins?

I own all of the 2nd in hard cover.
TWL is signed I don't touch it.
I know, why bother having a book you won't read?
As a general rule I beat up my books pretty well.
But I like it.
For instance I read the One Tree the first time while eating Doritos over 20 years ago.
There are Doritos stains all over it from me turning the pages.
I think that's cool.

[SoulBiter]

I have the hardback for WGW from when it first came out. It has held up much better than the paperbacks that I have.

[Relayer]

I have all the hardbacks for TCTC. One of the reasons they've held up is that I didn't even know I still had them until I saw them at my parents' house a few years ago. That added about 15 years of life to them

I also have the Gap and Mordant in hardback, but bought most of them used off Amazon in the last few years.

[Orlion]

"Reason is the circumference of Energy" is what William Blake said, and Stephen R. Donaldson has said that such is a major theme in the GAP sequence, but I also think it applies to the First Chronicles. The idea is that you have "passion" and you have "Law". Throughout the series, the reader is presented with the paradox that if there is too much "Law", passion will be squelched and everything will be for not, but at the same time, with too much passion, Law would be shattered and everything would be undone. Some examples:

1)Covenant's main problem: he can not deny the law of living with leprosy, but if he lets that rule, the beauty of the Land, and his soul, would disappear.
2)The Lords let the Oath of Peace rule their lives so that power like the Desecration could never destroy the land, but it's that same Oath that prevents them from getting power to protect the Land.
3)The tendency of the Land's inhabitants to follow through with promises is important to maintain their society, but it also tends to lead them towards destruction as well (i.e. the Ranyhyn)