time and consequences

[lorin]

When Linden first goes back in time to find the staff of law she is very concerned about not affecting (effecting - I always get that wrong) the future yet when Linden is sent back in time and ends up assisting Berek by healing the wounded and showing the warriors how to find and use hurtloam doesn't that act in itself change the future?

[Orlion]

It's a tough one, mostly if you believe in the advice Homer got on his wedding day ("If you go back in time, don't touch anything! For the slightest change could alter history in ways you couldn't imagine!"). In this case, any interaction with the past would, theoretically, cause a huge change in history.

The story itself, however, doesn't operate on this level. It seems that you can interact with things in the past and be all right, just so long as your prescense isn't noticed or can be explained in terms of its history. Hence, history may have been changed (Linden heals the army instead of something else happening) but her actions are not enough to change the course of history.

Also, it seems to be implied that if Linden doesn't know what's suppose to happen and just acts as she would, she wouldn't change history (under normal circumstances, I'm sure if she nuked Berek's army that'd be significant enough to change the flow of time )

[Vraith]

When Linden first goes back in time to find the staff of law she is very concerned about not affecting (effecting - I always get that wrong) the future yet when Linden is sent back in time and ends up assisting Berek by healing the wounded and showing the warriors how to find and use hurtloam doesn't that act in itself change the future?

Hee hee...welcome to time travel paradox Land!
There's lots of discussion of these issues scattered around.
The "strictly logical" best is that known history is spotty or inaccurately known, what Linded did isn't known history, but is the way it always really did happen.

The second best [and most consistent with what we know and has been said] is that if it makes minor changes, but has no world altering effect [for example, enough troops to win survived anyway, hurtloam was discovered a bit later and differently, but still found] the arch has enough "flex" to cover it.

And, btw, I'm not sure if you were correcting yourself, or making fun of your original mistake, but affecting is correct. Linden affects the future...what happens are effects.

[DrPaul]

Linden (guided by the Theomach) acted in a way which created a closed, paradox-free time loop. Anything she caused in Berek's time became part of the timeline in which Covenant, Linden, Hile Troy, Joan, Roger and Jeremiah enter the Land in the future.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

When Linden first goes back in time to find the staff of law she is very concerned about not affecting (effecting - I always get that wrong) the future yet when Linden is sent back in time and ends up assisting Berek by healing the wounded and showing the warriors how to find and use hurtloam doesn't that act in itself change the future?

Affect is almost always used as a verb. The rather unused verb "effect" is almost always stated in the context literally of "something effected a change."
So if you're not saying "X effected a change," then use the verb "affect." "It affected me; therefore, it had an effect."

Rarely, except in psychological circles, "affect" is used as a noun. An affect is an emotion, and it is pronounced with the stress on the first syllable.

[Savor Dam]

DrPaul is correct. It is the Theomach who altered the intent of those who brought Linden out of her own time and who guided the interactions with Berek's camp so that the timeline was not violated and so established history either occurred as it should (some sort of closed loop...) or was facilitated to achieve the old end in a new way that created no inconsistency.

(BTW, yay Lorin! One post to go to hit the 1k mark. Do not make us wait long for it, please!)

[Orlion]

(BTW, yay Lorin! One post to go to hit the 1k mark. Do not make us wait long for it, please!)

By gums, you're right! Lorin is one post away from giving up her entire soul to the Watch One of us, one of us...

[finn]

...............In this case, any interaction with the past would, theoretically, cause a huge change in history.

Not necessarily, it certainly has the potential to, but may equally not change one thing. In something like chaos theory, the very act of being, breathing, walking, in the past could be cataclysmic to the future/present. But there are also butterflies whose wings beat in the Brazilian rainforests and there are no hurricanes in Africa and the only consequences is that the insect flies. Whilst I agree there is a liklihood that events may be altered by interference in the past it is not necessarily sequential.

There is also the paradox of how would you know? If you changed the past and as a consequence changed the future (ie the changer's relative present) you'd simply remember the new history. If you recalled a signpost pointed West and it was the same signpost that as a kid pointed West and you went back in time and changed it so that it pointed East surely your childhood memory of it would then be that it always pointed East.

[Thorhammerhand]

Also let us not forget that the Theomach, as Berek's teacher would be able to explain away LA's powers as the initial 'unfettered one', (which he did), her SOL as an instrument by which she wielded earthpower, (which it is). and her knowledge of earthpower, her ability to heal and her overall differences, as well as Rodger's and Jeremiah's, by highlighting that there are other races out in the world that Berek may or may not meet in his days of lordship.

[Relayer]

When Linden first goes back in time to find the staff of law she is very concerned about not affecting (effecting - I always get that wrong) the future yet when Linden is sent back in time and ends up assisting Berek by healing the wounded and showing the warriors how to find and use hurtloam doesn't that act in itself change the future?

Affect is almost always used as a verb. The rather unused verb "effect" is almost always stated in the context literally of "something effected a change."
So if you're not saying "X effected a change," then use the verb "affect." "It affected me; therefore, it had an effect."

Rarely, except in psychological circles, "affect" is used as a noun. An affect is an emotion, and it is pronounced with the stress on the first syllable.

I love the English language. It's so straightforward...

Also let us not forget that the Theomach, as Berek's teacher would be able to explain away LA's powers as the initial 'unfettered one', (which he did), her SOL as an instrument by which she wielded earthpower, (which it is). and her knowledge of earthpower, her ability to heal and her overall differences, as well as Rodger's and Jeremiah's, by highlighting that there are other races out in the world that Berek may or may not meet in his days of lordship.

Exactly. And Donaldson makes it a point to have the Theomach tell Linden he's done this, for both internal consistency and to let the reader know that he's aware of the potential paradoxes he's introduced. The Theomach even insists that Berek never speak of the events regarding Linden the Healer, because her name must not become part of the Land's history. Fortunately, though Berek wants for her to be celebrated, he agrees.

It's also pointed out that if a change is minor enough, or if it can be incorporated into the known timeline, then no damage is done. But as Orlion said, if Linden had done something like killing Berek and Damelon, that would probably bust the Arch.

[Ur Dead]

Thorhammerhand wrote:
Also let us not forget that the Theomach, as Berek's teacher would be able to explain away LA's powers as the initial 'unfettered one', (which he did), her SOL as an instrument by which she wielded earthpower, (which it is). and her knowledge of earthpower, her ability to heal and her overall differences, as well as Rodger's and Jeremiah's, by highlighting that there are other races out in the world that Berek may or may not meet in his days of lordship.

Exactly. And Donaldson makes it a point to have the Theomach tell Linden he's done this, for both internal consistency and to let the reader know that he's aware of the potential paradoxes he's introduced. The Theomach even insists that Berek never speak of the events regarding Linden the Healer, because her name must not become part of the Land's history. Fortunately, though Berek wants for her to be celebrated, he agrees.

This got me thinking back when I first read the 1st books.

So much "as do" with the Unfettered. There didn't seem to be a reason why SRD placed so much with them. And that was the point I didn't understand. Why go thru the Lorestat and not become a Lord? Seem to be the best way to use Earthpower. But in the first Chronicles the Unfettered were given a special place within the story line.

Now with FR, SRD ties in the connections. Linden's name wasn't preserved but her "actions of unbound" use of Earthpower was preserved.
It now looks like Linden was honored by proxy when the people and Lords speak highly of the Unfettered.

[finn]

I guess its just a whimsy and perhaps is better in the "names" thread, but the "unfettered" also remove many constraints of the author in that they are not totally defined as to their powers, limitations or lineage. SRD could, if he chose, work many a plotline around abilities we are yet to fathom.