The Dead ("Kurash Qwellnir" chapter)

[starkllr]

I thought there were some interesting implications concerning which Dead were - and were not - present during the meeting in Andelain that Covenant remembers while the skest are attacking.

He remembers as being there:
Berek
Loric
Saltheart Foamfollower
Cable Seadreamer
Mhoram
Cail
The Theomach
and... "Jerrick of Vidik Amar, wrapped in shadows, who had shared his magicks with a-Jeroth"

So what the heck is Jerrick doing there? We've never seen or heard of him or his people before this book, not even in a passing reference. They lived in a far corner of the Earth. And they've been extinct for at least 10,000 years. Presumably, Covenant wanted/needed him there. Why?

Just because the bones of the creatures he helped create might be used to help trap the Elohim? That doesn't seem like much of a reason.

I have to think he, and what he shared with Lord Foul, will be important in the last book - Donaldson famously doesn't waste anything, or create things he doesn't need. So clearly Jerrick and the demimages are necessary, somehow.

Another question - why aren't certain spirits there? Wouldn't Pitchwife and the First, as the grandparents of Longwrath, have something to contribute to the plight of their grandson and his role than Foamfollower or Seadreamer do?

And why aren't Sunder or Hollian there? Given how important - and tormented - Anele was, shouldn't they have had something to say about his place in the potential salvation of the Land?

And when exactly did it take place? Covenant recalls that it was "years ago". But Mhoram talks about his son as though he's already in the Land. Or should Mhoram's words be taken to impy that the Dead can see into the "real" world, as Lord Foul seemingly can?

[dlbpharmd]

Good questions. I would've loved to see the First and Pitchwife again.

Here's another question: Why was Seadreamer still mute?

[Fist and Faith]

I'd like to know how the Theomach died.

[rdhopeca]

I'd like to know how the Theomach died.

Brinn killed him at the Isle of the One Tree...

[Fist and Faith]

"I am who I am," he said evenly. "Ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol. The Guardian of the One Tree. Brinn of the Haruchai. And many other names. Thus am I renewed from age to age, until the end."

That doesn't sound at all like he killed the Theomach. Sounds like they all merge, everyone going into the new body.

[Ur Dead]

"I am who I am," he said evenly. "Ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol. The Guardian of the One Tree. Brinn of the Haruchai. And many other names. Thus am I renewed from age to age, until the end."

That doesn't sound at all like he killed the Theomach. Sounds like they all merge, everyone going into the new body.

Sounds like the male counterpart to SWMNBN. (She for short)

One is a Guardian, the other a Bane..


/wonders.

[Vraith]

"I am who I am," he said evenly. "Ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol. The Guardian of the One Tree. Brinn of the Haruchai. And many other names. Thus am I renewed from age to age, until the end."

That doesn't sound at all like he killed the Theomach. Sounds like they all merge, everyone going into the new body.

Sounds like the male counterpart to SWMNBN. (She for short)

One is a Guardian, the other a Bane..


/wonders.

I'm pretty sure, not positive, that SRD somewhere said specifically that they don't merge.
More like, Brinn becomes Brinn+whatever spirit/powers the "office" grants, but not Brinn+Ak-Haru+Elohim.

[Seven Words]

Here's a wacky idea...The Demimages of Vidik Amar were seduced by Corruption, and slaughtered each other once they succumbed to Despite. What if.....the Insequent are the heirs of the Demimages? got their start from discovering some of whatever the Demis left behind....thus, their absolute stricture against going up against each other, preventing the internecine slaughter of the Demis.

[Vraith]

Here's a wacky idea...The Demimages of Vidik Amar were seduced by Corruption, and slaughtered each other once they succumbed to Despite. What if.....the Insequent are the heirs of the Demimages? got their start from discovering some of whatever the Demis left behind....thus, their absolute stricture against going up against each other, preventing the internecine slaughter of the Demis.

Another interesting speculation [I doubt we'll ever read an answer to this, though]. How would you connect their "contingent magic" with the Insequents, which we now know is related to but weaker than "wild magic?"

And, answer to part of the original question on who is present in the Andelain vision: It's speculation, but in the scene TC mentions that Time imposes some restraints on those present [except him, of course]. The ones present were all already dead at the time TC and Linden last saved the world; the missing ones you mentioned were, I think, all still living. I think.

[starkllr]

I hadn't thought of the idea that the Insequent and the Demimages might be the same people. And it does makes some sense. But the way Covenant separates them in his recollections - and the way that he specifically remembers that the Theomach is "representing" the Indequent, and Jerrick is similarly representing the Vidik Amar, makes me think they aren't connected.

On the other hand, that could be an artifact of Covenant's fractured and incomplete (and growing more so all the time) memories, so who knows.

As for the thought that Pitchwife, Sunder et al aren't part of Covenant's strategy session because they weren't dead when Covenant died, so they can't be part of his Dead - I like that! It never occured to me, but it's an elegant theory, and I can imagine SRD thinking exactly that way.

[dlbpharmd]

I definitely think they are separate peoples.

[Seven Words]

I meant they are separate peoples....but that the Insequent have some ties to the Demimages. Not neccesarily following their "lore/theurgies/whatever"....but "learned a lesson" from what befell them.

[Gart]

I'm sure they're different.

In the first chapter Covenant remembers the Despiser considering the Insequent and dismissing them before he moved on to a remote region to work over the Demimages.

That sounds like they're distinct peoples to me.

[earthbrah]

Boy, was I glad to see Mhoram. Covenant always trusted him more than any of the other lords (or so it seemed to me). A couple things he said seemed particularly important from my POV.

Her need for mercy is absolute. Is what TC did to (for?) Joan an act of mercy?

None here possess the wisdom to estimate the outcome of his loss, or the worth of his recovery. I wonder now what the result of Jeremiah's recovery will ultimately be. How much does he know?

[Seven Words]

I'm sure they're different.

In the first chapter Covenant remembers the Despiser considering the Insequent and dismissing them before he moved on to a remote region to work over the Demimages.

That sounds like they're distinct peoples to me.

I completely missed that.

Yeah, definitely distinct peoples.

But such wonderful, subtle chain of logic I had....

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

So what the heck is Jerrick doing there? We've never seen or heard of him or his people before this book, not even in a passing reference. They lived in a far corner of the Earth. And they've been extinct for at least 10,000 years. Presumably, Covenant wanted/needed him there. Why?

Just because the bones of the creatures he helped create might be used to help trap the Elohim? That doesn't seem like much of a reason.

I wanted to say that the Dead knew how to unlock Jeremiah's mind, i.e. Jerrick told them what Jeremiah could do with the quellvisk bones. But then I thought about how it was the Ranyhyn who took Linden and Co. to Muirwin Delenoth, and it was Cail who suggested trusting the will of the great horses. So IDK.

[wayfriend]

He and these spirits had gathered together in an effort to imagine or devise some form of salvation.

This, to me, explains the members of this gathering as well as the purpose. Or at least it's as much explanation as we are going to get. They are here to devise a salvation. Those spirits who yearn to devise such a salvation are here; others, who do not, or who feel that they could not provide substantive input, would not be here.

People like Picthwife and the First, while unreproachably supportive, leave the world-saving to those they have served. While Foamfollower and Mhoram have already shown that they yearn to participate, as they partook in the making and giving of Vain.

They all deferred to him. His was the only soul unconstrained by the strictures of Time.

Whoa.

Now THAT is interesting, isn't it?

In what way is the Time Warden unconstrained by the strictures of Time?

What are the "strictures of Time, anyway?" From what we know already, this is the "law" that things happen in sequence, and that what is done cannot be undone. That changing the future from the past can break the Arch of Time.

And Covenant is not contrained by these rules?

We already know that Covenant as Time Warden has been able to view the past. Maybe this is as unconstrained as it gets. But maybe his vision also extends into the future. And, in this world, knowing the future is very dangerous, one small mistep and you can shatter the Arch; knowing the future doesn't mean you can control it, but it does mean you are responsible for ensuring that the present doesn't get rerouted into a different future.

So the Time Warden may be very much like the Theomach when we met him. Aware of what will happen, but constrained to preserve the path that leads to what will happen.

This certainly would make the Time Warden's plans very complicated. And it certainly would make Covenant very melancholy, knowing who will live and who will die, who will succeed and who will fail, and being constrained to watch it unfold without interfering.

Which would certainly explain why the other Dead all defer to the Time Warden. If he says, hey we don't want to to that, well, they had better listen! Covenant tells them, "I’ve seen things some of you haven’t."

RE: Jerrick

Once they had been very different beings, a species of sentient herbivores. The transformation which had created quellvisks from such creatures had been Lord Foul’s only dangerous achievement during his centuries among the Demimages of Vidik Amar. Doing what he could with monsters both too intelligent and too savage to be ruled, the Despiser had given them an aspiration which might serve his purpose. When the quellvisks had rendered the Demimages extinct, Lord Foul had convinced them that they could master the entire Earth if they first slew the Elohim.

Jerrick of Vidik Amar, wrapped in shadows, who had shared his magicks with a-Jeroth, and had watched in shattering consternation as a-Jeroth had brought forth quellvisks.

So ... Jerrick taught magicks to Foul, Foul used those magicks to transform the quellvisk into terrible monsters, and then those monsters made Jerrick's people extinct.

Is it any wonder he strives to devise a salvation?

[Mighara Sovmadhi]

He and these spirits had gathered together in an effort to imagine or devise some form of salvation.

This, to me, explains the members of this gathering as well as the purpose. Or at least it's as much explanation as we are going to get. They are here to devise a salvation. Those spirits who yearn to devise such a salvation are here; others, who do not, or who feel that they could not provide substantive input, would not be here.

People like Picthwife and the First, while unreproachably supportive, leave the world-saving to those they have served. While Foamfollower and Mhoram have already shown that they yearn to participate, as they partook in the making and giving of Vain.

Would Cail be an exception to this pattern?

[wayfriend]

Cail may very well feel responsible for Esmer.

[RFlowers]

In what way is the Time Warden unconstrained by the strictures of Time?

The same way a jail warden is not constrained by the strictures of the jail.