The Giants in AATE

[dlbpharmd]

I don't like them.

Well, it's really not that I don't LIKE them. It's just that they're boring and there are too many of them. I can't keep them straight.

I loved Foamfollower in 1st chronicles. I've said many times over the years that he's one of the best characters in fantasy.

I loved the Giants in 2nd Chronicles. They were so well written, and had such great names (Seadreamer, Honninscrave, Pitchwife.)

Now, we have all these Swordmannir, and I can't keep up. They all sound the same to me. I can't tell any difference in who they are. Coldspray is the Ironhand. That's all I got.

[rdhopeca]

I can't disagree.

[aliantha]

<sigh> Me neither.

My only explanation -- and it's admittedly a lame one -- is that SRD is tailoring the drawing of his characters to reflect the relative attention his POV character pays to them. Linden certainly spends more time talking to Stave and Liand than anybody else. The Swordmainnir, she's not really focusing on as individuals -- only on what they can do for the team.

I have the same problem with the Humbled, btw. Galt, Branl and Clyme are pretty much interchangeable cogs, except that we know now that Galt was Stave's son. But then they don't really relate to Linden as individuals.

[Auleliel]

<sigh> Me neither.

My only explanation -- and it's admittedly a lame one -- is that SRD is tailoring the drawing of his characters to reflect the relative attention his POV character pays to them. Linden certainly spends more time talking to Stave and Liand than anybody else. The Swordmainnir, she's not really focusing on as individuals -- only on what they can do for the team.

I have the same problem with the Humbled, btw. Galt, Branl and Clyme are pretty much interchangeable cogs, except that we know now that Galt was Stave's son. But then they don't really relate to Linden as individuals.

That explanation makes sense to me. It's a pity we aren't given a chance to get to know them better though.

[johnsomc]

I'm actually glad to see other people feel this way - I have such a tendency to defend virtually anything and everything about Donaldson, but I have to say...more disappointments with this one than any of the previous, and this was one of the major ones - clearly it's isn't just me.

[Orlion]

I dunno, guys... aside from Stave, all the Haruchai characters in the entire chronicles are practically the same.

I think also it's kinda an army group thing. The Swordmainner do not have an identity outside the group much like how a marine doesn't have an identity outside his platoon.

[rdhopeca]

I dunno, guys... aside from Stave, all the Haruchai characters in the entire chronicles are practically the same.

I agree. Very few Haruchai have any noticeable difference in personality...beyond Bannor, Tull, Korik, Brinn, and Cail, now many have really been that different?

[Borillar]

Somehow even Ceer and Hergrom managed to have more personality. And don't forget Tull and Runnik.

[CT]

don't forget Tull and Runnik.

Can't ever forget them. Simply b/c their names are associated with one of the most heart-rending, tragic and jaw-dropping plot developments in the history of anything, ever.

I agree on the swordmainnir. Even the Ironhand feels under-developed vs the First, PW, et al. Sad.

[Vraith]

I actually think it's ok this way.
There are enough glimmers to remind us why we love giants.
They score enough points to remind us why they're important.
Just how long do we want these books to be? And we only have days...not journeys...to get there.
And, [related to a prediction I made elsewhere] Longwrath is the one that matters. We now know most of what he was...next we'll find what he becomes.

[Revan]

here is what i wrote in another topic on this matter.

The problem with lack of chance to bond and automatic caring doesn't stop with Jeremiah; the Giants we are also expected to care for when we've been given no bonding time. I reckon any Covenant fan here could tell me the differences between Pitchwife and Seadreamer - the characteristics of Foamfollower and the First. What do we have now? a load of Giants who all do the same thing. I'll give anyone here a dollar that can name all the Giants and give me character descriptions of each off the bat. Who says Giants have a problem with their seed? We've got sextuplets right here.

I'll tell you why; because they are all the same. Donaldson made an error here imo; he has made them all Swordmainnir, which allows us no differentiation at all.
In the Second Chronicles they all had different roles; the First commanded and kicked ass, Seadreamer directed the Search, Pitchwife fixed the ship and satified the Firsts' need for Giant booty. etc; they had different fixed roles - which enabled their emotions and characters to come across in not just who they were but what they did. The current Giants have no such distinction.

Imo I think Donaldson has restricted himself by sticking to the viewpoints of just Linden and Thomas. One or two chapters from a Giants view would, imo, do us a great load of good. It would allow stories, personalities and relationships to be articulated. I know Donaldson prefers to use characters from this world; but he used Mhoram with great succss... Anyone catching what I'm throwing here?

[SleeplessOne]

don't forget Tull and Runnik.

Can't ever forget them. Simply b/c their names are associated with one of the most heart-rending, tragic and jaw-dropping plot developments in the history of anything, ever.

I agree on the swordmainnir. Even the Ironhand feels under-developed vs the First, PW, et al. Sad.

great to see someone who derives as much pleasure from those two chapters in TIW as I do - it's great, great subplot of the first chronicles, possibly my favourite chapters in the entire series, which is somewhat of an anomaly as neither feature Covenant, my favourite leper.

As to the question of the individuality of the haruchai over the course of the chronicles, it's difficult to judge - Bannor and Brinn both had very distinct personalities within the constraints that writing the haruchai presents.
I always felt Bannor to be a very considered, wise and deeply hurt charcter. Brinn I saw as a borderline fanatic, somewhat of a loose cannon, passionate.
Apart from those two, perhaps Cail, Hergrom (who, despite not getting many lines in the 2nd chronicles, somehow sticks in the memory with his tragic end) and Tull (the youngest of the Bloodguard, who flips out whilst re-counting the downfall of the Giants) are the only haruchai/Bloodguard in the chronicles to really have left an imprint on my mind.
Morin, Korik, Tuvor, I know these guys were involved in some important scenes, but I get them mixed up if I havent read for a while; they aren't particularly distinct characters (and the plot really doesn't call for them to be drawn in any great detail)

the Humbled have been pretty bland, but we have Stave to counterpoint that; as far as Donaldson's strike-rate of interesting/distinct haruchai characters, that's probably par ...

[Orlion]

here is what i wrote in another topic on this matter.

The problem with lack of chance to bond and automatic caring doesn't stop with Jeremiah; the Giants we are also expected to care for when we've been given no bonding time. I reckon any Covenant fan here could tell me the differences between Pitchwife and Seadreamer - the characteristics of Foamfollower and the First. What do we have now? a load of Giants who all do the same thing. I'll give anyone here a dollar that can name all the Giants and give me character descriptions of each off the bat. Who says Giants have a problem with their seed? We've got sextuplets right here.

I'll tell you why; because they are all the same. Donaldson made an error here imo; he has made them all Swordmainnir, which allows us no differentiation at all.
In the Second Chronicles they all had different roles; the First commanded and kicked ass, Seadreamer directed the Search, Pitchwife fixed the ship and satified the Firsts' need for Giant booty. etc; they had different fixed roles - which enabled their emotions and characters to come across in not just who they were but what they did. The current Giants have no such distinction.

Imo I think Donaldson has restricted himself by sticking to the viewpoints of just Linden and Thomas. One or two chapters from a Giants view would, imo, do us a great load of good. It would allow stories, personalities and relationships to be articulated. I know Donaldson prefers to use characters from this world; but he used Mhoram with great succss... Anyone catching what I'm throwing here?

Makes sense... it'd also be the only efficient way to develope the Giants' characters at this point... personally, I think a point of view from Longwrath would be fun!

[lurch]

The observation that the Swordmainir is more like a Team..seems the point to me. Isn't that the whole issue with Linden after all? Teaming is Not one of her skills. Trusting Others is made quiet clearly a hurdle for Linden The Doctor to overcome.The Swordmainir sets an example in opposite to Linden. Notice that it is a Giant, with support from the Team,,who translates the Inspiring Waynhim. Thats on purpose. So,,for me..The Giant Team will win the World Series.

[earthbrah]

I actually think it's ok this way.
There are enough glimmers to remind us why we love giants.
They score enough points to remind us why they're important.

I agree with that. I think there's no argument that the quality of the development of these giants as individuals (or rather the lack thereof) is patently obvious in these Last Chronicles.

Personally, I like Frostheart Grueburn. She's provided the most humor from the giants, and was the one doing the translating for the ur-viles. Besides, I absolutely love her name!

[aliensporebomb]

Sigh.

I actually thought we were going to get the tale of Bahgoon the Unbearable but I guess not.

[ninjaboy]

I like them. But essentially there are too many of them. And they are all similar, due to them all being warriors.
In the First Chrons, it was essentially Foamfollower. In the 2nd, there were many, but they were all so different as a result of the particular Search they were on.
Now in the 3rd Chrons they are all pretty much interchangable, as apart from Longwrath and Coldspray they serve the same purpose. I honestly don't even know how many of them there are anymore.. And I surmise that the reason we had as many as we did is so that TC, LA, Liand, Mahrtiir, Anele, Pahni and Bhapa would all have a 'ride' should the occasion demand.. - whilst keeping Longwrath out of LA's way. And as such I wouldn't be surprised if we lost a few of their number shortly into TLD as there are fewer people for them to carry.

[zmulls]

Sigh.

I actually thought we were going to get the tale of Bahgoon the Unbearable but I guess not.

Don't count on it. It's a giantish tale and is long in the telling. SRD would need to write a whole 'nother trilogy to get that one done.

[TheFallen]

<sigh> Me neither.

My only explanation -- and it's admittedly a lame one -- is that SRD is tailoring the drawing of his characters to reflect the relative attention his POV character pays to them. Linden certainly spends more time talking to Stave and Liand than anybody else. The Swordmainnir, she's not really focusing on as individuals -- only on what they can do for the team.

I have the same problem with the Humbled, btw. Galt, Branl and Clyme are pretty much interchangeable cogs, except that we know now that Galt was Stave's son. But then they don't really relate to Linden as individuals.

I'm with you on the "fuzzy felt" two-dimensional giants and the Humbled as well. I've posted elsewhere on the apparent "disposability" with which SRD seems to be treating all but the most central characters within the LCs. Here's a snippet:-

I've got a barely-formed impression that maybe just maybe SRD is almost careless with (or possibly even overwhelmed by) his characters when he's got too many on stage at once. Maybe this is why he's terminated so many so suddenly. Now that he's split those who are left - which is something he's done many times in the past throughout all the Chrons - maybe he'll be able to give them a more in-depth treatment, solely because they're now separated. It's almost a film directorial thing - have twenty people in shot and as a director you're less bothered what happens to one or two - it's the overall impression that you're looking to manage. However, have only three or four under the narrative spotlight in a tight focus and you're much more liable to pay a great deal more attention to stage managing them.

I had previously felt that maybe SRD had bitten off more than he could chew. However, on reflection, I think that was unfair and that you're right - SRD has shown himself to be more than adept at handling multiple characters at once without compromising the reader's interest in and caring about them.

It must be a change in author objective then, and so it's almost certainly a quite deliberate POV thing as you suggest. SRD seems now to be even more intent on depicting internal conflict - there's a strong argument that in the LCs, he has moved further towards a much more tightly focussed and internalised "psychodrama" compared to the earlier Chrons. There are signs of this shift in narrative intent and authorial interest even if you just compare Chrons 1 and 2... with the introduction of Linden, Chrons 2 had even more internalised psychological conflict and self-doubt. Nobody should blame the author for this - it's his bat and his ball, after all - but this further shifting is I think why so many find the balance of the internal vs the external so difficult to stomach with the LCs, myself partly included.

I'm remaining hopeful that, with the remaining protagonists now being split up, with that meaning that the narrative POV simply *has* to move around (unless they all instantly meet up again and it's back to all events being filtered through Linden's consciousness), we'll see some more in-depth and three dimensional characterization in TLD.

Fingers crossed...

[Lord Zombiac]

I agree that there are too many of them!

Still, I think the whole concept of an evil, bloodthirsty giant is quite thrilling!
A great departure. Plus, these giants came in even later in the series than the Giants of the Search-- give them a chance to grow on you, I say!

the Ironhand is pretty distinctive, and Kindwind's loss of an arm kind of haunts me.

As the their names: I hate "Coldspray," mostly because it keeps reminding me of that annoying band, "Coldplay."

Now another thing about Longwrath is this:

My favorite TV show as a child was "Lost in Space," and my favorite character on that show was Dr. Smith.

Both Dr. Smith and Longwrath ellicit the same response in me:

"Why don't they just kill him?"