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Book 3 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

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Zarathustra
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Post by Zarathustra »

Shadowbinding shoe, I must reiterate how grateful I am to have someone reading this now at about the same pace I'm reading. A chance for our own mini-dissection! When the real thing comes along, you're going to have to cut-and-paste some of your comments here, because they're worth saving and repeating. Your last post in particular had several insights I found valuable.
shadowbinding shoe wrote:
Chapter 6 - We get chapter-heading confirmation that what Linden just did was an Unwisdom.
I think you mean chapter 4, don't you? Not nit-picking ... I just didn't want anyone to think you'd reached 6 yet and start spoiling it (for you or me; I'm only halfway through 5).
shadowbinding shoe wrote:
She has problems adjusting to her new state of powerlessness.
I really liked how Donaldson doesn't let his characters make a choice without the ramifications being fully examined. As he holds his characters accountable for their choices, he simultaneously holds himself accountable for his own choices in taking them in these directions. He never lets a thread drop, and always lets us feel the weight of their choices. This is one of the reasons why Donaldson characters feel so real. Her new state of powerlessness is just another fine example of this.
shadowbinding shoe wrote:
He, with the help of Stave manages to perform something even more dramatic and unlikely than Linden in the previous chapter: He changes the Masters' mind.
In the course of reading these first few chapters that seem to drag a bit, I'm always anticipating that climactic moment that will make the wait worth it. I'm glad the Humbled have taken their turn at serving this role this time around. They needed a cool scene, something that made them more than a nagging, complaining annoyance. Their entire race has turned a page with this scene.

(I didn't fully understand Stave's comments, either. I thought I was forgeting something from a previous book. But rdhopeca is probably on the right track.)
shadowbinding shoe wrote:
We learn that Covenant's Leprosy is rapidly gaining hold on his body. He only has a few days to live. He will go blind even before that. This sounds terrible. I'm beginning to suspect that Covenant's body and soul are linked to the Land's existence somehow. He will die in a few days of Leprosy which will destroy his nervous system and the Land ('s world) will die in a few days because the Worm will eat the earthpower which give it life.
I remember that his leprosy is rapidly spreading, but I don't remember that it would kill him in days. How could I have missed that? It certainly lends a sense of urgency to his condition! If you're right, I wholeheartedly argee that the Land and his leprosy are linked. In the GI a few years ago, someone pointed out this linkage to Donaldson in reference to events from previous books, and he said that he hadn't planned it, but it seemed pretty obvious in retrospect. Let's hope he's taking this idea and running with it now!
shadowbinding shoe wrote:
It seems Covenant existence as Timewarden made the Land's world deterministic and now that he left his office uncertainties and free choice are running rampant. Is this the explanation for the Theomach's ability to know what the future holds? This makes me glad Covenant is no longer the Timewarden.
This speculation, tied to your previous insight, really got me thinking. What if Covenant's place in the Arch was symbolic of Linden's inability to get over Covenant? Just like the readers of this series, Linden wasn't ever able to really let him go, because he didn't really die. He was transformed. He could still be "brought back." So that in itself explains why there had to be a Last Chronicles, and why it's called, "The LAST Chronicles," and why Covenant and the Land finally have to die this time: Linden never really let him go. In fact, her main danger to the Land was an act that was the epitome of "not letting go," by literally bringing him back from the dead.

Seen in this light, Linden's actions causing the end of the world (or at least the Land's world) aren't destructive merely because she shouldn't have done it, but because once brought back into Time, Covenant (and hence the Land, which symbolizes him) is supposed to die. That's simply the natural course of his disease, just like the Worm is the natural course of the Land's world. So Linden's actions aren't evil, but actually they are finally authentic, because this way she'll be able to finally let TC go, instead of having her lover "frozen" in Time and still accessible to a resurrection.

His disease never killed him. That was wrong. It was supposed to kill him. It was his mortality. It was the natural course of his life.

I call it now: that's the redemptive ending of this series. Linden was supposed to bring Covenant back because he was supposed to die, not become a "Timewarden." She's not evil, she's simply coming to terms with his end.
shadowbinding shoe wrote:
Question: how do you feel about the use of quotes from previous points in the books? I'm not too fond of them. They pop up way too often and I don't always remember where they came from. And they also feel like oversimplifications. As though a big scene or a central character can be summed up with a catchphrase.
I love them, but it is frustrating when I don't remember their exact source and context. I should have reread Runes and FR when I had the chance. They can be overused, and I would caution Donaldson to only use them when they reiterate a particularly significant point. But this technique is something I think is absolutely essential to Donaldson's style. (I have shamelessly adopted it in my own writing.)
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Post by variol son »

ARGH! I need to catch up, gods damnit!

I'll add my thoughts on chapters 1 and 2 after work, and hopefully finish chapters 3 and 4.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Variol son, you're not far behind. I'd welcome additional discussion of those earlier chapters, too.
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Post by variol son »

I will say that when I read chapter 1 online at SRD's website I loved it so much that I thought "I'm not waiting til I get back to NZ on 20 November" and went over the road to the mall and bought the book right then and there. And that chapter 2 is much better the second time around.

More later tonight. :D
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.

In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.

He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

Zarathustra wrote:Shadowbinding shoe, I must reiterate how grateful I am to have someone reading this now at about the same pace I'm reading. A chance for our own mini-dissection! When the real thing comes along, you're going to have to cut-and-paste some of your comments here, because they're worth saving and repeating. Your last post in particular had several insights I found valuable.
:D Thanks Z. I usually wait until paperbacks get to my corner of the world and by the time I want to discuss it with anyone everyone is already tired of talking about it so this is a rare opportunity. This is a little different from the usual group readings. Here we don't know what will come next. We are in the midst of suspenseful discovery, not just dissection and enlightenment. And making ourself enjoy the reading more perhaps.
shadowbinding shoe wrote:
Chapter 6 - We get chapter-heading confirmation that what Linden just did was an Unwisdom.
I think you mean chapter 4, don't you? Not nit-picking ... I just didn't want anyone to think you'd reached 6 yet and start spoiling it (for you or me; I'm only halfway through 5).
Thanks for pointing this out. I edited that post. I haven't read chapter 5 yet but will do so after I post this
shadowbinding shoe wrote:
She has problems adjusting to her new state of powerlessness.
I really liked how Donaldson doesn't let his characters make a choice without the ramifications being fully examined. As he holds his characters accountable for their choices, he simultaneously holds himself accountable for his own choices in taking them in these directions. He never lets a thread drop, and always lets us feel the weight of their choices. This is one of the reasons why Donaldson characters feel so real. Her new state of powerlessness is just another fine example of this.
shadowbinding shoe wrote:
He, with the help of Stave manages to perform something even more dramatic and unlikely than Linden in the previous chapter: He changes the Masters' mind.
In the course of reading these first few chapters that seem to drag a bit, I'm always anticipating that climactic moment that will make the wait worth it. I'm glad the Humbled have taken their turn at serving this role this time around. They needed a cool scene, something that made them more than a nagging, complaining annoyance. Their entire race has turned a page with this scene.
Very true. But there's hope for them yet. This Chronicle puts them at a disadvantage. Who is there for them to fight with just kicks and blows? Every opponent is either too potent, lore-wise or big to take notice of them. Maybe they'll find a different way to be meaningful.

(I didn't fully understand Stave's comments, either. I thought I was forgeting something from a previous book. But rdhopeca is probably on the right track.)
shadowbinding shoe wrote:
We learn that Covenant's Leprosy is rapidly gaining hold on his body. He only has a few days to live. He will go blind even before that. This sounds terrible. I'm beginning to suspect that Covenant's body and soul are linked to the Land's existence somehow. He will die in a few days of Leprosy which will destroy his nervous system and the Land ('s world) will die in a few days because the Worm will eat the earthpower which give it life.
I remember that his leprosy is rapidly spreading, but I don't remember that it would kill him in days. How could I have missed that? It certainly lends a sense of urgency to his condition! If you're right, I wholeheartedly argee that the Land and his leprosy are linked. In the GI a few years ago, someone pointed out this linkage to Donaldson in reference to events from previous books, and he said that he hadn't planned it, but it seemed pretty obvious in retrospect. Let's hope he's taking this idea and running with it now!
Can you give a link to that GI?
shadowbinding shoe wrote:
It seems Covenant existence as Timewarden made the Land's world deterministic and now that he left his office uncertainties and free choice are running rampant. Is this the explanation for the Theomach's ability to know what the future holds? This makes me glad Covenant is no longer the Timewarden.
This speculation, tied to your previous insight, really got me thinking. What if Covenant's place in the Arch was symbolic of Linden's inability to get over Covenant? Just like the readers of this series, Linden wasn't ever able to really let him go, because he didn't really die. He was transformed. He could still be "brought back." So that in itself explains why there had to be a Last Chronicles, and why it's called, "The LAST Chronicles," and why Covenant and the Land finally have to die this time: Linden never really let him go. In fact, her main danger to the Land was an act that was the epitome of "not letting go," by literally bringing him back from the dead.

Seen in this light, Linden's actions causing the end of the world (or at least the Land's world) aren't destructive merely because she shouldn't have done it, but because once brought back into Time, Covenant (and hence the Land, which symbolizes him) is supposed to die. That's simply the natural course of his disease, just like the Worm is the natural course of the Land's world. So Linden's actions aren't evil, but actually they are finally authentic, because this way she'll be able to finally let TC go, instead of having her lover "frozen" in Time and still accessible to a resurrection.

His disease never killed him. That was wrong. It was supposed to kill him. It was his mortality. It was the natural course of his life.

I call it now: that's the redemptive ending of this series. Linden was supposed to bring Covenant back because he was supposed to die, not become a "Timewarden." She's not evil, she's simply coming to terms with his end.
I never thought of it like that. As I've felt for a long time that this is actually the Chronicle of Linden Avery (just like the second was the chronicle of both of them) this line of thought sounds very fitting. I tend to concentrate on the more immediate in-story sides of stories and their meanings. Taking this another step, what role do you think Roger and Joan play in the story from this perspective?
shadowbinding shoe wrote:
Question: how do you feel about the use of quotes from previous points in the books? I'm not too fond of them. They pop up way too often and I don't always remember where they came from. And they also feel like oversimplifications. As though a big scene or a central character can be summed up with a catchphrase.
I love them, but it is frustrating when I don't remember their exact source and context. I should have reread Runes and FR when I had the chance. They can be overused, and I would caution Donaldson to only use them when they reiterate a particularly significant point. But this technique is something I think is absolutely essential to Donaldson's style. (I have shamelessly adopted it in my own writing.)
The Sharing of Pain. Why does this make me feel at ease? I promised myself to reread Fatal Revenant, this time with a dictionary. I have a suspicion I missed a lot by guessing along. A word like 'Tocsin', obviously its just a variation of toxin. No need to go check it out. Wrong! It's actually a warning bell. How many other words lured me into foolish complacency or had knavish friends assuring me that here's no need to look into things?

As for the catchphrases, Donaldson used them splendidly in the past, but he rubbed me the wrong way this time. It felt like too much and too bareboned to boot.


Variol son - I hope you'll join us. I remember liking your posts on the other books during group readings. The gave me food for thought
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Post by Zarathustra »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Can you give a link to that GI?
Even better:


Don (dlbpharmd): Mr. Donaldson, as many have said above, thank you for writing my all-time favorite story, and thank you for continuing that story. I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for Runes to be published!

It seems, particularly in the 1st Chronicles, that so much of what is happening to Covenant physically is mirrored in the Land. For example, when his leprosy is at its worst, the Land is suffering under Foul's winter. My question: Is there any correlation between the onset of Covenant's leprosy and the enacting of the Ritual of Desecration?


When I planned the first "Chronicles," the relationship between Covenant's leprosy and the Land's plight was foremost in my mind. In fact, I designed the Land as a reverse reflection of Covenant's dilemma; and as the story progressed I consciously brought those two opposing images closer together until they were virtually superimposed.

However, the specific detail that you're asking about never actually crossed my mind. It's embarrassing, really, since it seems so obvious now that you raise it. But I didn't think of it for the same reason that I can't write prequels: as I suggested in an earlier answer, all of my attention is focused *forward*, on the ending. So I set up my reflections and then pursued their implications. I never asked myself about the implications of what might have happened *before* my starting point.

Everything that I've ever created about "the past" in any of my stories is there because it helps me get where I'm going: it doesn't exist for its own sake. In this important sense, if in no other, the Land is less "real" than, say, Middle Earth. Its history does not exist independent of "current events."
(04/13/2004)
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Post by Vraith »

Ok, so I'm having so much fun following you folk along I'm not even commenting on stuff I thought at the time in this thread so I don't accidentally spoiler something.
So, now that you've started, and have my attention, I'll be really mad if you don't keep it up all the way to the end. Just saying.
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Post by Auleliel »

Vraith wrote:Ok, so I'm having so much fun following you folk along I'm not even commenting on stuff I thought at the time in this thread so I don't accidentally spoiler something.
So, now that you've started, and have my attention, I'll be really mad if you don't keep it up all the way to the end. Just saying.
Ditto.
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Chapter 5 - Preparations

Post by shadowbinding shoe »

Vraith wrote:Ok, so I'm having so much fun following you folk along I'm not even commenting on stuff I thought at the time in this thread so I don't accidentally spoiler something.
So, now that you've started, and have my attention, I'll be really mad if you don't keep it up all the way to the end. Just saying.
Auleliel wrote: Ditto.
Oh. You're really turning the screws on me here, ha guys? :poke: Though I supposed that's what I asked for in my first post. Ask and ye shall receive.
Zarathustra wrote:
shadowbinding shoe wrote: Can you give a link to that GI?
Even better

Ah. I remember that question. :)



So we finally begin our journey with the Harrow to save Jeremiah... not. We're still taking our time in Andalain. So help me if this won't be the last time I say this. :soapbox:

For we are in Chapter 5 - Preparations

Well actually I enjoyed this chapter. This chapter was mostly Linden ruminating on what it means to have friends. From what she says it sounds like she never had anyone she considered a friend. She never had anyone she could depend on and share her burdens with. Was Covenant and the Land to blame for this? They were a secret she could share with no one (for fear of being considered mad) even if she wanted to. Though she learned to open up emotionally during her first visit, the foundation of it could not be shared. Covenant didn't have this problem. Not really. He was a writer. Though he didn't reveal the specifics, he could share things through his books with the world. He even has deep conversations with that doctor. And I believe he has a stronger and more vivid imagination that could encompass the Land even when he was exiled from it.

And her parents taught Linden a lesson that was etched to her bones: she could rely only on herself. Covenant taught her how to love, but he didn't teach her how to let go.

She wonders which is the stronger: the one who is self reliant and therefore strengthened through his resulting trials or the one who has friends to share his burdens with. Interestingly Linden is the a defining focal around which all the beings of the second kind gather while all those who oppose her are of the other kind. You don't believe me? Lets go through them:

The Giants have long been Linden's followers and they are without doubt creatures who share their troubles and help each other. The only one who isn't Linden's friend, Longwrath, has been cut off from his community by the geas that has been cast on him.

The Ramen and Ranyhym - also share and help. Mhartir has ambitions but they are not ambitions that sever him from community. His wish to be remembered is as a Ramen of great deeds, not a citizen of the world who accomplish such.

The Theomach, the Ardent and the MahDoubt - while the Insequent are loners who cannot dream of interfering in each other's business, the Theomach accomplishes his great goal with the help of Berek, the Ardent gathers for the first time in history his race's powers an act symbolizing their abandoning of their loner ways for a greater purpose and the MahDoubt was all about friendship and helping. The Harrow on the other hand is a humorless loner. Someone who has accomplished much but can rely only on himself.

Stave - has taken the example of the Ramen. While on the surface his people seem to be all about sharing with their group consciousness, it is not a sharing among diverging individuals but among the nearly identical. The Haruchai never want to rely or receive help from non-Haruchai allies. It is all about them giving their help to others in the way they deem proper.

Liand doesn't even need an explanation but Anele is a more interesting case. I think his, and Covenant's disabilities come into the forefront in the way they prevent them from being self reliant individuals.

And all of them are without great powers. Thus community becomes even more important.

Liand points this out to us. The weaker members of their group are more brave and laudable for their participation in these events even if their contribution to their efforts may seem less. He fulfills his role as Linden's friend, Pushing to step out of her funk and do what needs to be done when she feels inadequate.

Why do they flock to her? Up until this point she has strove in the opposite direction, gathering and hoarding powers and knowledge to achieve her goals, it is only now when she has given up her powers and is feel with remorse that she starts to see the value in sharing.

She wonder what value others see in her that she cannot. For the first time their trust and support gives her strength instead of burdening her.


We also get an insight of the Ardent's character and motives. I was wrong about him. He is less similar to the MahDoubt than I had hoped. He does not go to feasts in order to share in the joy and company it promises. What he seeks is unique experiences. A kind of thrill-seeker if you will. But he is also not without caution, for unlike the Harrow he has not dared to go into the "Deep places of the Earth" which are apparently the resting places of the Banes Foul created. (here is also, finally, the explanation for why the Insequent weren't known in the Land or to us until these Last Chronicles: they were terrified of the deadly Banes hidden beneath the Land's tempting surface gifts.) As Linden herself thinks this does not bode well for the company. Will he be in too much ecstasy at the unique experience of unspeakable evils being rained down on his companions to help them? Or will he be too scared to stay? Perhaps the other insequent thought about this too and have some insurance against it. We need to hope.

But at last the Harrow takes them to those deep places of the earth. We end on a scary note.
"Then heavy stone and cold closed over her - over all of her company - like the sealing of a tomb."
and I am left to wonder whether they're just in a deep dark cavern somewhere beneath Mount Thunder or whether they have been encased within the rock, buried alive.
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Post by chaplainchris »

Like Vraith and Auleliel, I'm really enjoying the read through! Will try to comment more cogently when I have the book in front of me, to make sure I don't spoil anything.

Enjoyed the comments on community, although I'll have to think more about your comments on Linden (esp. the thing about not learning how to let go from Covenant - I'm thinking here of her letting him give up the ring in WGW, and of her "farewell Beloved" at the end - though that chapter is also filled with Pitchwife's "I know not how to say farewell" song) and Stave and the Haruchai. Because the Haruchai - those folks have ISSUES. Thousands of years of complicated grief.

Good stuff!
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

chaplainchris wrote:Like Vraith and Auleliel, I'm really enjoying the read through! Will try to comment more cogently when I have the book in front of me, to make sure I don't spoil anything.

Enjoyed the comments on community, although I'll have to think more about your comments on Linden (esp. the thing about not learning how to let go from Covenant - I'm thinking here of her letting him give up the ring in WGW, and of her "farewell Beloved" at the end - though that chapter is also filled with Pitchwife's "I know not how to say farewell" song) and Stave and the Haruchai. Because the Haruchai - those folks have ISSUES. Thousands of years of complicated grief.

Good stuff!
Thanks.

I meant 'let go' in the sense of relinquishing responsibilities and letting others worry about things. Letting go of Covenant's memory was more Zarathustra's idea.
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Post by chaplainchris »

Btw, shadowbinding shoe, like you I was pleased to hear that the Insequent have generally avoided the Land out of fear. In the previous two volumes, it seemed like they were these mighty beings who felt the Land was beneath them...nice to know that the opposite was true, at least for the Insequent "rank-and-file" as it were.

I still have a certain fanboy-ish wondering about how Kevin at his full power would stack up against the Harrow or the Theomach or etc. :)
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Post by dlbpharmd »

I hope all of you will participate in the full dissection, to be conducted at a later date. ;)
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

chaplainchris wrote:Btw, shadowbinding shoe, like you I was pleased to hear that the Insequent have generally avoided the Land out of fear. In the previous two volumes, it seemed like they were these mighty beings who felt the Land was beneath them...nice to know that the opposite was true, at least for the Insequent "rank-and-file" as it were.

I still have a certain fanboy-ish wondering about how Kevin at his full power would stack up against the Harrow or the Theomach or etc. :)
Yes, I like this explanation. Though it mkes one wonder why they would not be able to merely go to the surface of the Land. Is the temptation of the hidden powers of the deep too great to the likes of them? Or maybe the rest of the Land's magic is too intrinsic to it, unlike the magics of the Banes and the Viles and so holds little interest to them.

I think Donaldson said somewhere that the Insequent were no match to the Old Lords. In this new book Linden keep disparaging the Harrow and the Ardent's abilities because they are merely powers that they use, not things that are part of them, like even Liand's.
dlpharmd wrote: I hope all of you will participate in the full dissection, to be conducted at a later date. Wink
As I've said, I plan to reread Fatal Revenant (with a dictionary) sometime in the future. Rereading AATC after that is likely. In the past though I participated in group reading I've always been out of sync with the everybody else and this made it less enjoyable because it was usually adding lonesome footnotes to old threads.

Do you think this thread should be moved to the Group Read section of the site?
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Post by variol son »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:In this new book Linden keep disparaging the Harrow and the Ardent's abilities because they are merely powers that they use, not things that are part of them, like even Liand's.
I did pick up on how often that is mentioned - that like their garments the power of the Insequent is obtained rather than inherent. I imagine that (for most of them) this makes their power quite specific (in that you're good at what you've had a lot of practice doing) as opposed to Liand's power, or the power of the Lords, which was really only hindered by their own imaginations.
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.

In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.

He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
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Chapter 6 - Seek Deep Stone

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Chapter 6 - Seek Deep Stone

In the previous chapter I had the thought that the Viles and perhaps the One Forest had a specific purpose within Creation.

The Viles always seemed different from the other denizens of this world. They didn't really seem to belong. They and their powers seemed alien to the rest of the world. I asked myself, could they have been a late addition to the Creation? A patch?

When the Creator discovered the Banes, he needed someone to guard against them and the Viles were the result. Like the Elohim that had to guard against the Worm, the Viles were created to guard against the Banes.

Guardian angels that have to live in Hell to keep it quiescent.

In this scheme the One Forest was the outer layer of protection: A strong force of Earthpower that would not allow anything to smirch the perfection of the rest of Creation.

The Ravers' and Foul machinations to set the Viles against the the One Forest was the old divide and conquer technique to get rid of the guardians.

This chapter confirmed my first suspicion even while it punched my second one to its knees.


The company arrives on the doorstep to the Lost Deep. This is a narrow bridge somewhere beneath the Bedrock of Mount Thunder connecting the outer world with the Viles demesne. At first I thought it was the bridge at the entrance of Mount Thunder we crossed several times in the past but it's quite a different bridge, more elaborate (or is it? Perhaps it's only the enchantments woven into it that are elaborate, not it's physical shape. I'm not sure.), vast, mysterious, staler and very very darker.

The Lost Deep is apparently entirely cut off from the rest of Creation except for this narrow bridge the Viles erected to get to the outside world. I suppose that explains the word 'lost': it was cut off from the rest of Creation when the Creator discovered the Banes.

Hmm, could Landsdrop in fact be a reverse of what we (or maybe just me?) thought it was? It's not the Lower Land falling down in horror at the banes hidden beneath Mount Thunder, Or the Upper Land shuddering in revulsion at what it holds, it's the Creator thrusting in a whole new stratum beneath the Upper Land called the Lost Deep in order to contain and isolate the Banes that made the upper Land so much higher than the Bane-free Lower Land.

The bridge is guarded by some sort of warding the Viles placed on it. There's also a horror ("The Horror!") at the bottom of the chasm and because of all these dangers, as well as the dangers the Viles faced by entering the outer world, this bridge is called 'The Hazard'.

It seemed the Viles still cared for their task because not only will the bridge fall if outsiders or affected Viles tried to enter, their entire demesne, along with the Banes it contained would be destroyed or at least buried alive ("Buried alive!").

I can feel for the Viles. Not really a part of Creation, an afterthought, a patch for an unwanted blemish, forced to live with these despicable Banes, they wanted to be a part of the rest of Creation. To see if they could belong. They were not like the Elohim, a central part of Creation. And their path was fraught with troubles.

The connection they and their descendants had with Lord Foul become easier to understand. He was the Creator of their surrounding. He was the cause of their existence.

Though I now have troubles understanding where the Ur viles lived and bred. It was above in normal Mount Thunder, right? The fiery pit Findail tried to throw Vain into wasn't in the Deep but also above in Mount Thunder, right? I have troubles figuring these things. And did others ventures into these places? Drool, certainly. The Ravers as well it seems. The Old Lords? Did all those creatures know how to undo the Viles' warding?

Anyway Anele finally gives us his revelation. The worm will eventually, after eating the magic, the Earthpower and all life in the world will at last eat the Earthblood in Mount Melenkurion and after that break the arch of time. Everyone seems appalled but I don't really see why. They already knew the world was doomed and Linden that Time was doomed. How much worse is it to learn that the Worm will head to Melenkurion after everything else of meaning is swallowed?

But we also learn the secret the plants drew on Covenant's and Linden's clothing: The One Forest was supposed to be the final guardian against the Worm. It's connection to the One Tree and the Elohim is brought into focus. This also leaves me less than awed. But I suppose it makes sense and gives meaning to our lives?

The connected Staff of Law is also apparently the key to undoing the Viles' ward on the Hazard. I'm not sure why.

Next chapter, the Lost Deep? (hopefully)

Edit to add - and we will meet Kevin's Dirt! And it's not a thing, it's a creature. One filled with hatred. I wonder what it will be like.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Chapter 5, Preparations:

I love the complexity of Linden's emotions given at the opening of this chapter. Nothing illustrates the irrational or trans-rational nature of emotions more than their ability to contain and withstand contradiction. Linden feels simultaneous desire for Covenant's love to "cover even her vast crime," and yet feels that he diminishes her by "denying that her every deed was wrong." She dreads and longs for the very same thing.

This was just beautiful:
On page 90, SRD wrote: Perhaps this was what it meant to have friends and the possibility of love: to become smaller, too inadequate and fallible for words--and thereby to find herself no longer alone. No longer either solely culpable or solely necessary.
And then Donaldson goes on to spin webs of connection linking this insight to the other characters. Just brilliant.

This, I felt, was extremely important:
On page 91, SRD wrote: Apparently Covenant believed that Jeremiah's plight and the Lands' could not be distinguished from each other.
I don't think that's ever been said explicitly, has it? Sure, we've all expected it. But so far Jeremiah's plight has been used to contrast with the Land's predicament, as a source of conflict within Linden's intentions. It was a way to show her love for her son at odds with saving the Land--and hence the possibility that what she was doing was ultimately destructive despite her actions being driven by love. But now we have a hint of the resolution between these two seemingly opposing goals.

I like how Liand addresses the worth of Linden's "lesser companions." (p.92) I was just thinking how they seem so small and pointless compared to the greater powers around them. They also seemed to be left out of the story, presumably for this reason. The moment was too big for them. But Donaldson was conscious of this, too, and brings them back into the forefront of his story. He cares so much for his characters. It's infectious.

However, this did wear a bit thin when the Ironhand gives the Manethrall an exuberant compliment merely because his Cords go get berries and water. (p. 93) Sheesh. Pointless friendliness and endless compliments, all to ram home the idea that these are "special" people, even when they're doing the most mundane tasks. [This point was made so much better in LFB when Trell gets serious about a broken stoneware bowl and mends it back together.]
On page 93, SRD wrote: "Cords," she heard Mahrtiir say, "this company requires water and sustenance. We have endured much without rest or aliment. Aliantha we must have, and also a stream to quench our thirst."
...
"Aye, Manethrall," assented the Ironhand. "The Ramen are provident as well as courteous. For many reasons, we grieve those Giants whom the Land names the Unhomed. Among our sorrows is this, that their fate precluded us from hearing their tales of both the Ranyhyn and the Ramen."
Never let an opportunity to recount your sorrows pass you by, I suppose. :roll: Even when you're giving someone a compliment merely because they went looking for berries and water in the most life-supporting, beneficent natural environment the world has ever seen. :roll: Honestly, did anyone doubt that the Cords would find food and water in freakin' Andelain?? I'd imagine that you can't walk there without tripping over an aliantha bush. :P

Page 95 has got to hold the record for the most Italicized quotes from previous scenes ever. Seriously, check it out.

We learn that Ardent is an example of what Kierkegaard would call the "aesthetic mode." Someone living in this mode--seeking pleasure--learns to approach his hedonism with strategy, because pleasures can become boring. The Aesthete doesn't merely seek quantity, but also quality and novelty.
Wikipedia wrote: Unrefined immediacy is characterized by immediate cravings for desire and satisfaction through enjoyments that do not require effort or personal cultivation (e.g. alcohol, drugs, casual sex, sloth, etc.) Refined immediacy is characterized by planning how best to enjoy life aesthetically. The "theory" of social prudence given in Crop Rotation is an example of refined immediacy. Instead of mindless hedonistic tendencies, enjoyments are contemplated and "cultivated" for maximum pleasure. However, both the refined and unrefined aesthetes still accept the fundamental given conditions of their life, and do not accept the responsibility to change it. If things go wrong, the aesthete simply blames existence, rather than one's self, assuming some unavoidable tragic consequence of human existence and thus claims life is meaningless.[17]
This last part is the disturbing conclusion of a life pursued as pure aesthetic enjoyment--even when practiced with reason and strategy. And Donaldson gives us precisely these worries in the text:
On page 98, SRD wrote:Linden stared at him, trying to grasp the implications of his peroration. Although his human aura remained partially concealed by his raiment, she discerned that he was telling the truth. But how would such a man react in a crisis? A crisis was certain: she knew the Despiser too well to believe otehrwise. What would a man who prized unique sensations above all else do when he faced butchery and was threatened with death?
Kierkegaard would agree:
Wikipedia wrote:The aesthete, according to Kierkegaard's model, will eventually find himself in "despair", a psychological state (explored further in Kierkegaard's The Concept of Anxiety and The Sickness Unto Death) that results from a recognition of the limits of the aesthetic approach to life. Kierkegaard's "despair" is a somewhat analogous precursor of existential angst.
This doesn't bode well for the Ardent.

Kierkegaard contrasts this mode with two other modes of existence, the next level being the Ethical Mode:
Wikipedia wrote:Commitment is an important characteristic of the ethicist. Commitments are made by being an active participant in society, rather than a detached observer or outsider. The ethicist has a strong sense of responsibility, duty, honor and respect for his friendships, family, and career.[17] Judge Vilhelm uses the example of marriage as an example of an ethical institution requiring strong commitment and responsibility. Whereas the aesthete would be bored by the repetitive nature of marriage (e.g. married to one person only), the ethicist believes in the necessity of self-denial (e.g. self-denying unmitigated pleasure) in order to uphold one's obligations.[17]
And this mode is how Linden began this chapter: realizing her commitments made by being an active participant in the "society" of her friends. No longer alone as the most powerful person in the group wielding powerful weapons. Covenant, too, embodies this mode, because he is no longer a detached observer or outsider (Timewarden).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Either/Or

The third mode is one that Donaldson probably does not endorse: the religious mode. But Donaldson wouldn't be the first existentialist to reject that part of Kierkegaard.
Last edited by Zarathustra on Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Chapter 7 - Crossing the Hazard

Post by shadowbinding shoe »

Good post Z. Though, do you really think Donaldson eschewed the Religious mode in these Chronicles?

There are strong religious overtones to these books. Perhaps less in the viewpoints of Thomas Covenant and Linden Avery because they are in the exalted positions but how else can we understand Linden's followers Liand, the Ramen, the Ranyhym and the Giants except as people who act on faith? When they stand by her and aid her in an action that everyone believes would cause the end of the world they are not acting with a moral mode. They keep returning to the axiom that they need to have faith in her.

The Haruchai are a People that had their God-figure, Kevin, betray and fail them. Yet despite all their constant doubting and judgmentalism they yearn for someone they can put their faith in. The Masters cling to Covenant and Stave to Linden.

Chapter 7 - Crossing the Hazard

Linden undoes the warding the Viles placed on the Hazard using her knowledge of them and we learn more about the Horror at the bottom of the pit below the Hazard. I have Cthulthu images, though to be honest, I only know Lovecraftian lore from second hand. It is actually a She, and She is the source of Kevin's dirt. She gobbles you up and grows bigger. She's much stronger than the Illearth Stone. In short she sounds as dangerous as the Worm.

So why is she at the bottom of this pit? Did the Viles put her there to guard their home and she grew out of proportion (as in 'don't leave stuff in the fridge'?) That doesn't seem to fit their descriptions so maybe Foul put her there to guard his Banes? If the Creator placed the Viles for that purpose maybe Foul mirrored him with his own guardian. But then why didn't she do anything since the beginning of Creation? And why did Lord Foul bother with the puny Illearth Stone when he had her?

Call me foolish but I have only one thought about her: Finally, we're going to meet the real Foul-wife! She's big and ugly as sin and makes her Lord live far far away and pretend like she doesn't exist.
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Chapter 8 - Caverns Ornate and Majestic

Post by shadowbinding shoe »

So I've now read:

Chapter 8 - Caverns Ornate and Majestic

and the suspense is killing me. But I shall persevere!

Anyway in this chapter we tour the demesne of the Viles. They are majestic, flawless, alluring, otherworldly and befuddling.

I really liked the water-crafted ballroom. Enchanted timelessness. And Lord Foul's throne, or a replica of it is also there! Suddenly I'm suspecting that Lord Foul had hired Land-based engineers to create his home. Its flawless perfection is reminiscent of the Viles' own halls. Perhaps his throne was his payment: an interesting piece of foreign art for the Viles to study and despair.

Jeremiah is in what is probably the central chamber of this place and he, actually the kroyel, seems equal to the Harrow's mind-controlling powers. Linden lost all her companions except Liand and Anele, I'm really worried that she wouldn't be able to get them back. When you say 'don't worry, I'll be back in a jiffy. You'll be safe here.' something bad always happens to them by the time you return. We even see it in WGW. And without the Ardent and Covenant's assistance how will she manage against the Harrow AND croyel-Jeremiah in this field of his choosing?

Meanwhile the Ardent has stumbled into the Aesthete's Paradise. Could he ever manage to tear himself away from it? I fear that with him enchanted the Harrow would be free to do as he wills since the eyes of his race have been blinded by wonders. Perhaps, since they all gave him their powers they are all now powerless. I suspect the Harrow did this intentionally. The bastid.
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Post by Zarathustra »

I don't have as much to say about the "action scene" chapters. Now that the pace has picked up, and the book is less about characters and hard choices, it's less interesting to me.

However, I enjoy heading to new places and seeing new things. The Last Deep, the Hazard, Jeremiah's castle, the water ballroom ... all these are cool and well written.

Chapter 6: Seek Deep Stone. I really like alternating the POV between Covenant and Linden. More of this, please! Actually, just more of TC POV, please! Two chapters out of 9 isn't enough.

Anele's Deep Rock warning: the danger keeps getting more specific, more real. This is just another step in allowing us to imagine the stakes, setting up the end. However, I'm a bit confused by the world's oldest memories tell the future?!?

Chapter 7: Crossing the Hazard.
After they finally get going, start doing things, and SRD quickens the pace, I was surprised that he'd take an entire chapter to cross a bridge. In this chapter we get the first of several hints about Linden's intentions and secret hopes:
On page 118, SRD wrote: She had surrendered to the Hoarrow in part because she suspected that forces greater than her human desperation would oppose his intentions for her son.
Really? This is the first I've heard of it. It would have been nice if SRD had included this in the chapter where she was actually giving up her powers. Sure, doing so would have sacrificed the outrage and despair felt by readers, the "no Linden don't do it!" factor. But it would have prevented this new twist from feeling like it came out of nowhere. It would have felt less like Donaldson is just toying with us.

When Mahrtiir asks if they think Harrow really can save everyone from the Worm, Stave responds:
On page 119, SRD wrote: Anele's words suggest otherwise. To his ears, or in his sight, the requisite knowledge is remembered only here. The Harrow does not truly comprehend the Worm.
Knowing what happens to the Harrow in the next chapter, this is interesting. This is also another reason why they had to seek deep rock. I'm glad that it looks like the fate of the Land will rest in the hands of our heroes, rather than some Insequent jerk, but I'm a little disappointed to see the end of the Harrow's plans coming so soon This thread doesn't feel like it has had enough time to play out. Like the last quote, SRD is very busy now laying the ground work for the Harrow's end.

I'm a little confused why we've been set up all this time to expect Linden's rage to be necessary, and then it isn't. Her encounter with Wildwood at Garroting Deep seemed to teach her something she'd need. The Harrow seemed to have thought her rage was necessary to his plans. But in when it comes down to that hinted moment (opening he portal), it turns out that it's yet another case of "bad guys are actually good" The poor viles were tricked by Lord Foul to despise themselves. They weren't bad in the beginning. They were dedicated to beauty and wonder, spurning the evils buried around their underground home. But if this revisionism is correct, then why did they make their homes underground next to heinous evils in the first place? If they were committed to loveliness from the beginning, and weren't merely in Donaldson's revised conception of them, then it's a strange place to start making lovely things: on the doorstep of the world's greatest evil, worse than the Illearth Stone (which is also nearby) and second only to Lord Foul himself. But no, they didn't start become "evil" themselves until they left this dark hole filled with evils, and went topside where the true loveliness of the Land awaited them. So at this point, they don't despise themselves, and didn't use rage or revenge to seal their portal. Speak, friend, and enter. ;)


Chapter 8: Caverns Ornate and Majestic


I liked this tour through vile wonderland. But a nagging doubt bothers me: I've seen this done before (see below), and I worry that it was done better. I don't want to have this feeling while reading a brand new Donaldson book. Anyway, let's talk about the end. All that build up to reach Jeremiah and SRD focuses more on the ugly rock on the floor? Linden stands there thinking about this ugly rock for an entire page (p 149) before we even realize that she is standing in the presence of her son. He's right there! Stop staring at the damn floor, Linden! But I suppose he must set up her victory in the next chapter somehow. The moment just seemed rushed to me.

Chapter 9: Hastening Doom.

I'm not done with this chapter yet, but the battle really bothered me. I thought it was kind of lame. The Harrow dead already? Roger showing up shouting "SUCK-er!" Really? Jesus. It was worse than Darth Vader shouting, "Noooo" in Episode III. Really, really weak. The Harrow is given all this build-up, must have had all these careful thought out plans, but it looks like he can't even defeat the croyel? Yes, I know that Linden was an unexpected intervention, but the Harrow wasn't doing hardly anything even before Roger showed up. The battle at the Earthblood in FR was much, much better. Using the Seven Words to kick a chunk of rock loose in the floor was (theme for this scene ...) weak. Ah, I hated it. This moment has been anticipated for two books, and now it seems that Donaldson just wants to get it over with.

Closing thoughts ....

This whole sequence, spanning these three chapters, feels very much like yet another homage to Tolkien's Mines of Moria. We've got a trial to open the gate, along with a lurking monster in the deeps right before the gate. Linden must solve a riddle, of sorts, to gain entrance. Once inside, we see an underground wonderland that is ornate and majestic, ending with a fiery confrontation with one of the chief monster-bad-guys of this world (though not "final boss"). And there was a crossing of a slender rock bridge (though that came at the beginning). All things considered, I thought Bakker did a retread of Moria best in The Judging Eye. If you haven't read it, you're missing out. It blows this away.
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