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Book 3 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
shadowbinding shoe wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:I quite agree. Foul's incomprehension of this side of human nature has been his weakness all along. I believe this was stated somewhere in AATE.
Yes. Though I always thought of him as a sort of ultimate chess-master that is able to predict every feasible option. The other enemies like Roger are powerful fools blinded by their own shortcomings but he's a master schemer.

And isn't his ability to inspire despair and despite like a maestro a testament that he can understand ?human? nature and emotions?
Foul understands humans insofar as they reflect aspects of himself. Donaldson has written that Foul despairs but is not aware of it, so he strives to create (reflect back) despair in others. In psychological terms this is called 'projection.'
shadowbinding shoe wrote:So how can he fail time after time? Is it that he sees only the surface of things? That he cannot grasp deeper motivations and strengths? No, that's not quite it. I think it is that he believes in the rationality of emotions. To him hope and love exist but they must be founded on a rational basis. So when his enemies continue to hope and love and strive when there is no rational reason to do so instead of despairing like he expects them to it defies his understanding and meticulous planning.
They despair, but they do not become Landwasters. There are other answers to Despite.
I think you didn't get what I was trying to say. Or maybe you did and you just see things differently. We tend to disagree most of the time, don't we?

Let's see. You say Foul can only understand despair and not positive emotions. To me that seems impossible. How can there be only one side of the coin? To have despair you must first experience better things, or know of them. Otherwise you'll just be resigned.

Foul knows how to wound people emotionally. How to destroy their happiness. Can you do such things without knowing anything about what you're hurting? Surely the inspired ways he finds to achieve his aims show us how well he understands his foes in some ways at least.


When I talked about rationality in emotions I didn't say despite was inevitable. That wasn't what I was talking about. What I tried to highlight was two ways the world can be perceived that I think lie at the root of the conflict between Foul and his successful foes.

Think about people with suicidal tendencies or even just depression. There's a certain subtype that tells you that they thought about it rationality and they see no reason to want life. Everything they'll do is meaningless since even the greatest people leave no mark behind them after enough time passes. Life is full of ugliness and misery, they'll tell you, just open the newspapers. Life is just a drag. Why should they want to live?

How can you answer such arguments? The answer in the end tends to be an irrational one. One rooted in sentimentality and the awakening of suppressed emotions. For life is not a rational thing. The will to live is not rooted in our intellect.

Lord Foul is Despite because he takes the rational approach to its bitter end while his opponents triumph because they embrace the irrationality of their emotions. They continue to hope when all cause for hope fails, they continue to strive when things look hopeless.

Was this philosophical concept the basis on which Donaldson built Lord Foul?

His unchallenged intelligence and his hate of life makes me think that this might be the case.
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
shadowbinding shoe wrote: Yes. Though I always thought of him as a sort of ultimate chess-master that is able to predict every feasible option. The other enemies like Roger are powerful fools blinded by their own shortcomings but he's a master schemer.

And isn't his ability to inspire despair and despite like a maestro a testament that he can understand ?human? nature and emotions?
Foul understands humans insofar as they reflect aspects of himself. Donaldson has written that Foul despairs but is not aware of it, so he strives to create (reflect back) despair in others. In psychological terms this is called 'projection.'
shadowbinding shoe wrote:So how can he fail time after time? Is it that he sees only the surface of things? That he cannot grasp deeper motivations and strengths? No, that's not quite it. I think it is that he believes in the rationality of emotions. To him hope and love exist but they must be founded on a rational basis. So when his enemies continue to hope and love and strive when there is no rational reason to do so instead of despairing like he expects them to it defies his understanding and meticulous planning.
They despair, but they do not become Landwasters. There are other answers to Despite.
I think you didn't get what I was trying to say. Or maybe you did and you just see things differently. We tend to disagree most of the time, don't we?

Let's see. You say Foul can only understand despair and not positive emotions. To me that seems impossible. How can there be only one side of the coin? To have despair you must first experience better things, or know of them. Otherwise you'll just be resigned.

Foul knows how to wound people emotionally. How to destroy their happiness. Can you do such things without knowing anything about what you're hurting? Surely the inspired ways he finds to achieve his aims show us how well he understands his foes in some ways at least.


When I talked about rationality in emotions I didn't say despite was inevitable. That wasn't what I was talking about. What I tried to highlight was two ways the world can be perceived that I think lie at the root of the conflict between Foul and his successful foes.

Think about people with suicidal tendencies or even just depression. There's a certain subtype that tells you that they thought about it rationality and they see no reason to want life. Everything they'll do is meaningless since even the greatest people leave no mark behind them after enough time passes. Life is full of ugliness and misery, they'll tell you, just open the newspapers. Life is just a drag. Why should they want to live?

How can you answer such arguments? The answer in the end tends to be an irrational one. One rooted in sentimentality and the awakening of suppressed emotions. For life is not a rational thing. The will to live is not rooted in our intellect.

Lord Foul is Despite because he takes the rational approach to its bitter end while his opponents triumph because they embrace the irrationality of their emotions. They continue to hope when all cause for hope fails, they continue to strive when things look hopeless.

Was this philosophical concept the basis on which Donaldson built Lord Foul?

His unchallenged intelligence and his hate of life makes me think that this might be the case.
As far as I know, Lord Foul was built up as a symbol of pure evil. Foul himself states that he has no heart, only darkness.

I was admittedly surprised, therefore, to find Donaldson psychoanalyzing him. I can see analyzing evil, and many authors have done so, but not psychoanalyzing an avatar of evil. Foul secretly despairs, he has repressed his knowledge of this, but as a result unconsciously projects his despair onto others.

Is Donaldson trying to get his readers to sympathize with Foul? Perhaps in three years we will find Covenant trying to psychoanalyze Foul in person in order to reduce him to tears. Perhaps the throne in the Lost Deep can double as a psychoanalyst's couch.

If you think we disagree a lot, it is only because I take my cues from Donaldson's own words - not the term "projection," because Donaldson doesn't use the technical term for it. But that's what it is. And you take your cues from somewhere else. For example, you stated that AATE "shows" that Anele is a coward, but nowhere in the text does Donaldson state or even hint that Anele was a coward. Anele's being a coward plays no role in the novels, he is not even characterized as such. And in my experience with Donaldson, he doesn't leave anything out, every motive is eventually revealed. Anele disguised himself as powerless, impotent, seemingly too old and senile or crazy for his earthpower to serve any purpose, otherwise he would not have made it very far.

And anyway, if Foul were so rational he would have banished Covenant's shade at the end of WGW, instead of going out of control with rage and wildly attacking it. I'm certain that Foul believes he is infinitely rational or wise, but that is only the over-confident pride that goeth before a fall, a symptom of the self-defeating nature of Despite.
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: As far as I know, Lord Foul was built up as a symbol of pure evil. Foul himself states that he has no heart, only darkness.
I think he was a little more complex than that from the start. For example Donaldson said somewhere that his power lay more in cunning than brute power and that's one of the reasons why he was defeated when he faced Covenant in TPTP.
I was admittedly surprised, therefore, to find Donaldson psychoanalyzing him. I can see analyzing evil, and many authors have done so, but not psychoanalyzing an avatar of evil. Foul secretly despairs, he has repressed his knowledge of this, but as a result unconsciously projects his despair onto others.

Is Donaldson trying to get his readers to sympathize with Foul? Perhaps in three years we will find Covenant trying to psychoanalyze Foul in person in order to reduce him to tears. Perhaps the throne in the Lost Deep can double as a psychoanalyst's couch.
Heh heh. Well his confrontation with SWMNBN leaned in that direction. I can see an ending where Lord Foul is amalgamated into the Create to heal the fractured whole that once was. Something along the lines of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Enemy_Within_%28Star_Trek%29
If you think we disagree a lot, it is only because I take my cues from Donaldson's own words - not the term "projection," because Donaldson doesn't use the technical term for it. But that's what it is. And you take your cues from somewhere else. For example, you stated that AATE "shows" that Anele is a coward, but nowhere in the text does Donaldson state or even hint that Anele was a coward. Anele's being a coward plays no role in the novels, he is not even characterized as such. And in my experience with Donaldson, he doesn't leave anything out, every motive is eventually revealed. Anele disguised himself as powerless, impotent, seemingly too old and senile or crazy for his earthpower to serve any purpose, otherwise he would not have made it very far.
Well that would be more along the lines of arguments I had at times with wayfriend. It's been a while but I think with you it was about the Worm. Which is natural since it holds a special place in your heart. In any case characters and worlds once written take on a life of their own. If an author meant to convey something different than what he did that doesn't negate what has already been written unless the books are edited. My musings about Anele were a bit of fridge logic. It highlights some facets of his story while you try to concentrate on others but you should note that your proof is taken out of Linden's thoughts and I don't think she is an objective narrator at all times. You should give Donaldson more credit. His stories have layers.
And anyway, if Foul were so rational he would have banished Covenant's shade at the end of WGW, instead of going out of control with rage and wildly attacking it. I'm certain that Foul believes he is infinitely rational or wise, but that is only the over-confident pride that goeth before a fall, a symptom of the self-defeating nature of Despite.
No I didn't say Foul was himself rational. I said he believes in the rationality of emotions. That if makes Covenant's circumstances hopeless Covenant will become hopeless and the like. His own emotions are as irrational as everyone else's.
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Part 2 - chapter 10: The Pure One and the High God

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Part 2 - chapter 10: The Pure One and the High God

Ah, a Thomas Covenant chapter. I've been expecting you.

I like the discussions Covenant has with the Humbled. Linden's conversations have been pretty one sided exposition pieces.

Linden: what was the true problem with Kevin?
Stave: He thought too much about what-ifs.
A Giant: He's right, you know.
Linden: I must think less about what-ifs from now on.


Not only is it less interesting to read, it turns the assertions into author assertions which puts it on the path to preachiness.

Some of the best memories I have from the Chronicles are from the conversations Covenant has with Lord Mhoram and with Foamfollower. I would be really happy to have more of their like.


The contrast between Covenant and Linden in their attitudes toward horses is something I thought about in this chapter. Covenant doesn't really like horses or riding and when his borrowed horse is showing exhaustion he doesn't show much empathy to it unlike Linden. That bothered me while reading this chapter. Not only does he not slow down to let his horse recover which is understandable under the present conditions, he doesn't show any appreciation towards it. On the other hand he does do his best to help it. Linden loves the ranyhn and has a connection with them but maybe Covenant shows more respect to them? Also, while it's easy to love a being as perfect as the ranyhyn are Covenant has always been drawn to the flawed and broken, something he thinks about in this chapter.

Thinking about their origins Linden and Covenant are really opposites. Covenant begins his life loved and successful while Linden is an unloved and unwanted child. Success comes easily for young Covenant while Linden has to fight tooth and nail to become a doctor.

When the Land transforms them Covenant learns to accept that love and beauty can flourish even beneath a coat of grime, even when it's broken while Linden learn to love and be loved.

Do they see their missing parts in each other?


The branching history of the Jheherrin was interesting. I always thought the Skest were just the products of interactions between the Sarangrave taint and the Sunbane taint when its rays hit the Sarangrave waters. It made me think that they were a dying breed now that the Sunbane was no longer there to create them.

How did they become servants of Joan and her raver and of Jeremiah and his croyel? Were they freely given by the Lurker before he knew that the Worm would be wakened or did they switch their allegiance when they saw another Power they could serve? How intelligent are they and how much do they remember of their history?

The Feroce attitude toward the Skest reminded me of how the Ur-viles said they viewed the ravers. They see themselves as better and wiser but their lords prefer their more mindless servants because there is more of themselves in them.

I don't know how much I accept Covenant's feelings of guilt toward these Feroce. Their image of him has been distorted over the millennia. He is pitiless, absolute power as far as they're concerned. But he was also empathic when he met them and humble. The sur-Jheherrin show that the Feroce' course is not the only course. And the arguments with the Haruchai show us how difficult it is to sway people from strongly held beliefs and worldviews.

Does the Lurker's talk of agonies mean its tainting by the effluvium of the Banes was a horrible thing to it? Covenant' deal with it reminded me of the ethical code in military: you must protect all your countrymen, not just the people you like. After all the Lurker is a part of the Land.

Lord Foul and his friends tried to play the Lurker for a fool and leave it on the sinking ship. I like how it's biting them in the behind now.
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shadowbinding shoe wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: As far as I know, Lord Foul was built up as a symbol of pure evil. Foul himself states that he has no heart, only darkness.
I think he was a little more complex than that from the start. For example Donaldson said somewhere that his power lay more in cunning than brute power and that's one of the reasons why he was defeated when he faced Covenant in TPTP.
I was admittedly surprised, therefore, to find Donaldson psychoanalyzing him. I can see analyzing evil, and many authors have done so, but not psychoanalyzing an avatar of evil. Foul secretly despairs, he has repressed his knowledge of this, but as a result unconsciously projects his despair onto others.

Is Donaldson trying to get his readers to sympathize with Foul? Perhaps in three years we will find Covenant trying to psychoanalyze Foul in person in order to reduce him to tears. Perhaps the throne in the Lost Deep can double as a psychoanalyst's couch.
Heh heh. Well his confrontation with SWMNBN leaned in that direction. I can see an ending where Lord Foul is amalgamated into the Create to heal the fractured whole that once was. Something along the lines of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Enemy_Within_%28Star_Trek%29
If you think we disagree a lot, it is only because I take my cues from Donaldson's own words - not the term "projection," because Donaldson doesn't use the technical term for it. But that's what it is. And you take your cues from somewhere else. For example, you stated that AATE "shows" that Anele is a coward, but nowhere in the text does Donaldson state or even hint that Anele was a coward. Anele's being a coward plays no role in the novels, he is not even characterized as such. And in my experience with Donaldson, he doesn't leave anything out, every motive is eventually revealed. Anele disguised himself as powerless, impotent, seemingly too old and senile or crazy for his earthpower to serve any purpose, otherwise he would not have made it very far.
Well that would be more along the lines of arguments I had at times with wayfriend. It's been a while but I think with you it was about the Worm. Which is natural since it holds a special place in your heart. In any case characters and worlds once written take on a life of their own. If an author meant to convey something different than what he did that doesn't negate what has already been written unless the books are edited. My musings about Anele were a bit of fridge logic. It highlights some facets of his story while you try to concentrate on others but you should note that your proof is taken out of Linden's thoughts and I don't think she is an objective narrator at all times. You should give Donaldson more credit. His stories have layers.
Yes they have layers, but what I'm saying is that it is not necessary to add anything that isn't already there. And I am not relying on Linden's thoughts, only on the fact that nothing in the books points to the idea that Anele was a coward.

As for the Star Trek reference, let's hope there aren't anymore lame tropes. SHE as the "slow-moving villain" trope is so common to "B" horror movies that I found it really detracted from the novel.
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Heh heh. Well his confrontation with SWMNBN leaned in that direction. I can see an ending where Lord Foul is amalgamated into the Create to heal the fractured whole that once was. Something along the lines of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Enemy_Within_%28Star_Trek%29
I think TLD will end with William Shatner singing Lucy in the Sky:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1Ar79f8aN8
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Post by Vraith »

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
shadowbinding shoe wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Heh heh. Well his confrontation with SWMNBN leaned in that direction. I can see an ending where Lord Foul is amalgamated into the Create to heal the fractured whole that once was. Something along the lines of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Enemy_Within_%28Star_Trek%29
I think TLD will end with William Shatner singing Lucy in the Sky:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1Ar79f8aN8
maybe...but the foreplay leading up to it should be tom jones singing "Kiss"
"U don't have 2 be cool to rule my world
Aint No particular sign I'm more compatible with
All I want is your extra time and your......KISS.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Part 2 - chapter 11: Kurash Kwellinir

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Yes they have layers, but what I'm saying is that it is not necessary to add anything that isn't already there. And I am not relying on Linden's thoughts, only on the fact that nothing in the books points to the idea that Anele was a coward.
As I've said my thoughts on Anele were for the most part a piece of fridge logic. What bothered me when I read it was that he let Liand sacrifice himself uselessly while he procrastinated and that he, like Esmer preferred dying over trying to live without his powers.

And I want to defend Shatner's honor. God, I really liked the original Star Trek series. But singing is something he should have left to others.

You guys are killing me.

Part 2 - chapter 11: Kurash Kwellinir

This was a strong chapter.

Covenant's journey through his memories in this chapter was simply superb. His council with the dead was a great piece, and the remaking of Foul's Kreche, ending with his dismissal by Past Lord Foul was very strong, unnerving even.

It seems like the Demimages of Vidik Amar will play a stronger role in this story than I credited them with. I wonder what that could be.

The fight between the skest and the Feroce disappointed me a little. I expected the Feroce to wield impressive theurgies against their simple relatives and that they will accompany Covenant or even lead the way through Kurash Kwellinir clearing his path but that didn't happen.

Their powers made me think that the lost ally stranded in Sarangrave will turn out to be Longwrath and that they would make him remember who he really is sometime in the next book.

Throughout this and the previous chapter the timeline confused me. Did Linden and Covenant confront the Feroce on the same night? And did this battle between Skest and Feroce took place while Linden camped with the giant midway between sarangrave and the quellvisk mass grave? The ranyhym's ability to foresee things and the option that Covenant moved to a different point in the timeline when he jumps into the caesure confuses things even more.

Lastly I felt sad for the nameless horse Covenant rode. He is left stranded on this small promontory. There is no way to flee. He is near the end of his strength. And a tsunami wave is about to shatter him to death. No one looks back on him. He is left there to die.

He made me think of Joan.
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Part 2 - chapter 12: Sold Souls

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Part 2 - chapter 12: Sold Souls

Oh, this was a good chapter. The book title finally comes to the forefront, Covenant's mental problems are dealt with and Joan and her caesures are no more (or are they? Since they span time, those that were already created would still be there. Unless they're in a parallel timeline?)

The confrontation between Tom and Joan and the raver was on the metaphysical side. I thought he would just appear in front of her and talk. In retrospect this makes absolute sense and I like how it played. The poor Humbled, almost erased out of existence and powerless to do anything against it!

I have to admit that I saw a thread title called 'The Krill was Life' here before reading this chapter and it made me think that Covenant would bring Joan peace by embracing and consoling her despite everything, but Donaldson marked a darker path for them. I kept thinking, now he's going to tell her it wasn't her fault. Now he will light her tormented memories with the truth of their youthful love to each other. Now, he'll show her that like white magic such love is timeless and no disease can undo it. But that never happened.

But at least she died happy seeing the ranyhyn, perhaps for the first time in her life. I once said that in the first chronicles the ranyhym symbolized Joan and the Ramen Covenant's joy and love for her when they were married. In that way meeting them now would unmake all her beliefs that that life was tainted, that it was false, for the ranyhyn are a self-evident truth beyond all doubts.

But she never gets to touch them. Would that makes her believe she became unworthy for them? What happened to her spirit? Is it still tormented out there somewhere? Or was perhaps she utterly destroyed by the Krill's magic?

And the Forestals and their One Forest! Finally we see a bit of Covenant himself in these memories (beyond his love for Linden). This is his favorite memory and interestingly enough it is not of the untrammeled One Forest that covered the whole Land in the distant past but the small and divided one in its last moment of defiance. This strengthens my belief that Covenant is attracted to broken beauty. It has been tested and and the bones of its truth exposed by travails.

Joan's life on the other hand was one of failure. It seems that her answer should have been to find another man to love her and affirm to her what she thought Covenant falsified. And yet that didn't happen. In Donaldson's chronicles, the heroes have to confront their inner problems in order to solve them. They cannot be sidestepped. And because Joan says she is too weak to do that, Joan couldn't forgive, she couldn't forget. She couldn't move on.

We end with Covenant healed mentally (fitting with the concurrent healing of the broken Time) but crashed to the ground with the loadstone of his guilt.

Is the Worm already on the doorstep to the Land? We were supposed to have a week before that happened but I lost track of the time. In the previous Chronicles it sounded like the Land's universe was built similarly to ours with each star a titan powered by nuclear fusion and the Land a small world crusted over a small but ever hungry Worm (or wormhole?) circling a sun of its own. I assumed the first thing it would do would be to shake off the Land's world and then spend an eon hunting down the remaining stars.

But when the sun and stars disappear at Book's End, that doesn't sound true anymore. The world is obviously a geocentric one. Did I misread the Elohim origin story? Did I misinterpret what happened on the Isle of the One Tree? (I wonder what happened to that tree)

That scene reminded me of Lewis' end of the world in "The Last Battle". Not that his works are comparable to Donaldson's of course but the blotted sky and awakened old powers reminded me of it. To clarify, Donaldson rendition is (so far) much much better if there were any doubts.

But I think they were inspired by opposite points in the Bible. While Lewis tried to reiterate what is supposed to happen in the end of days (horn blaring, goodly separated from the wicked) Donaldson harks back to the story of Creation in the very beginning of Genesis. The Fourth Day of Creation has just been undone.

Each of the books in this Chronicle so far ended in a rebirth of a central character. In the first it was the false appearance of Covenant and Jeremiah. In the second it was the flawed appearance of Covenant. In this one it's Jeremiah coming out of his mental shell (and Covenant healing his mental cracks). Will anything similar happen in the last book or was this time too flawed or false in some way?

I can't wait for the next book.
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Re: Part 2 - chapter 12: Sold Souls

Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

I see you didn't mention Joan's cowardice.
She was doing her utmost when she abandoned him. When she divorced him. When she went to live with her parents, putting as much distance as she could manage between herself and her cowardice.
You see, in this case Donaldson calls a spade a spade. But in no terms does he ever call Anele a coward.
shadowbinding shoe wrote:Part 2 - chapter 12: Sold Souls

Oh, this was a good chapter. The book title finally comes to the forefront, Covenant's mental problems are dealt with and Joan and her caesures are no more (or are they? Since they span time, those that were already created would still be there. Unless they're in a parallel timeline?)

The confrontation between Tom and Joan and the raver was on the metaphysical side. I thought he would just appear in front of her and talk. In retrospect this makes absolute sense and I like how it played. The poor Humbled, almost erased out of existence and powerless to do anything against it!

I have to admit that I saw a thread title called 'The Krill was Life' here before reading this chapter and it made me think that Covenant would bring Joan peace by embracing and consoling her despite everything, but Donaldson marked a darker path for them. I kept thinking, now he's going to tell her it wasn't her fault. Now he will light her tormented memories with the truth of their youthful love to each other. Now, he'll show her that like white magic such love is timeless and no disease can undo it. But that never happened.

But at least she died happy seeing the ranyhyn, perhaps for the first time in her life. I once said that in the first chronicles the ranyhym symbolized Joan and the Ramen Covenant's joy and love for her when they were married. In that way meeting them now would unmake all her beliefs that that life was tainted, that it was false, for the ranyhyn are a self-evident truth beyond all doubts.

But she never gets to touch them. Would that makes her believe she became unworthy for them? What happened to her spirit? Is it still tormented out there somewhere? Or was perhaps she utterly destroyed by the Krill's magic?

And the Forestals and their One Forest! Finally we see a bit of Covenant himself in these memories (beyond his love for Linden). This is his favorite memory and interestingly enough it is not of the untrammeled One Forest that covered the whole Land in the distant past but the small and divided one in its last moment of defiance. This strengthens my belief that Covenant is attracted to broken beauty. It has been tested and and the bones of its truth exposed by travails.

Joan's life on the other hand was one of failure. It seems that her answer should have been to find another man to love her and affirm to her what she thought Covenant falsified. And yet that didn't happen. In Donaldson's chronicles, the heroes have to confront their inner problems in order to solve them. They cannot be sidestepped. And because Joan says she is too weak to do that, Joan couldn't forgive, she couldn't forget. She couldn't move on.

We end with Covenant healed mentally (fitting with the concurrent healing of the broken Time) but crashed to the ground with the loadstone of his guilt.

Is the Worm already on the doorstep to the Land? We were supposed to have a week before that happened but I lost track of the time. In the previous Chronicles it sounded like the Land's universe was built similarly to ours with each star a titan powered by nuclear fusion and the Land a small world crusted over a small but ever hungry Worm (or wormhole?) circling a sun of its own. I assumed the first thing it would do would be to shake off the Land's world and then spend an eon hunting down the remaining stars.

But when the sun and stars disappear at Book's End, that doesn't sound true anymore. The world is obviously a geocentric one. Did I misread the Elohim origin story? Did I misinterpret what happened on the Isle of the One Tree? (I wonder what happened to that tree)

That scene reminded me of Lewis' end of the world in "The Last Battle". Not that his works are comparable to Donaldson's of course but the blotted sky and awakened old powers reminded me of it. To clarify, Donaldson rendition is (so far) much much better if there were any doubts.

But I think they were inspired by opposite points in the Bible. While Lewis tried to reiterate what is supposed to happen in the end of days (horn blaring, goodly separated from the wicked) Donaldson harks back to the story of Creation in the very beginning of Genesis. The Fourth Day of Creation has just been undone.

Each of the books in this Chronicle so far ended in a rebirth of a central character. In the first it was the false appearance of Covenant and Jeremiah. In the second it was the flawed appearance of Covenant. In this one it's Jeremiah coming out of his mental shell (and Covenant healing his mental cracks). Will anything similar happen in the last book or was this time too flawed or false in some way?

I can't wait for the next book.
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Re: Part 2 - chapter 12: Sold Souls

Post by shadowbinding shoe »

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:I see you didn't mention Joan's cowardice.
She was doing her utmost when she abandoned him. When she divorced him. When she went to live with her parents, putting as much distance as she could manage between herself and her cowardice.
You see, in this case Donaldson calls a spade a spade. But in no terms does he ever call Anele a coward.
I see you've decided to stick to this argument about Anele like super-glue.

Reading a few of the threads here after posting my impressions from the last chapter I've become aware that some people didn't like the book and that you've been championing its virtues against them. I have to ask you: are you channeling your anger at them on me?

While I had my complaints in this thread I don't think I ever said this book sucked. It was much better imo than tRotE and some sections in it shined even if it wasn't as good as FR.

I freely admit that I doubt Donaldson wanted to portray Anele as a gutless coward. I've discussed my own opinions about him at length in previous posts here (you're welcome to reread them). The thing that sealed the deal for me was Liand's destiny and why it was apparently necessary. As for Joan, I don't feel like I've plumbed the depths of her back-story. I need to think about it some more.

But notice that in your indiscriminate quote from my post I wrote:
Joan's life on the other hand was one of failure. It seems that her answer should have been to find another man to love her and affirm to her what she thought Covenant falsified. And yet that didn't happen. In Donaldson's chronicles, the heroes have to confront their inner problems in order to solve them. They cannot be sidestepped. And because Joan says she is too weak to do that, Joan couldn't forgive, she couldn't forget. She couldn't move on.
which is closely related to cowardice. And remember the very different viewpoints we have here. Linden's opinions about Anele, particularly after his self sacrifice cannot be compared to Joan's opinions about herself.
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Re: Part 2 - chapter 12: Sold Souls

Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:I see you didn't mention Joan's cowardice.
She was doing her utmost when she abandoned him. When she divorced him. When she went to live with her parents, putting as much distance as she could manage between herself and her cowardice.
You see, in this case Donaldson calls a spade a spade. But in no terms does he ever call Anele a coward.
I see you've decided to stick to this argument about Anele like super-glue.

Reading a few of the threads here after posting my impressions from the last chapter I've become aware that some people didn't like the book and that you've been championing its virtues against them. I have to ask you: are you channeling your anger at them on me?

While I had my complaints in this thread I don't think I ever said this book sucked. It was much better imo than tRotE and some sections in it shined even if it wasn't as good as FR.

I freely admit that I doubt Donaldson wanted to portray Anele as a gutless coward. I've discussed my own opinions about him at length in previous posts here (you're welcome to reread them). The thing that sealed the deal for me was Liand's destiny and why it was apparently necessary. As for Joan, I don't feel like I've plumbed the depths of her back-story. I need to think about it some more.

But notice that in your indiscriminate quote from my post I wrote:
Joan's life on the other hand was one of failure. It seems that her answer should have been to find another man to love her and affirm to her what she thought Covenant falsified. And yet that didn't happen. In Donaldson's chronicles, the heroes have to confront their inner problems in order to solve them. They cannot be sidestepped. And because Joan says she is too weak to do that, Joan couldn't forgive, she couldn't forget. She couldn't move on.
which is closely related to cowardice. And remember the very different viewpoints we have here. Linden's opinions about Anele, particularly after his self sacrifice cannot be compared to Joan's opinions about herself.
Why do you bring up Linden's opinion (or personal thoughts) of Anele again? I say again, that has nothing to do with anything. Anele is represented as a doddering old fool who speaks gibberish and is too weak to be of any use. And - this is one of my predictions that came true - he turned out to be the exact opposite of this semblance.

The entire point of the Last Chrons has been an exercise in questioning our assumptions. What did I say about ROTE years ago on this forum? That Linden was led astray by the attack of Demondim on Revelstone, that it was not what it appeared to be, that it was a strategy to manipulate Linden into using power. At that time, I wrote at least a dozen posts on how everything in the book was not as it appears.

And what about Anele? Did I not write, back in the day, that Anele, apparently the weakest character, would turn out to be the strongest? Did I not, at the time, compare this plot device with that of many Stephen King novels in which the weakest character was really the strongest? The character Duddits in Dreamcatcher, for example. The list of examples goes on and on. This is called a "trope," and tropes are one of the things Donaldson excels at.

That being said, I am not intending to natter negativity at you. I have proven capable of uttering praise on many occasions. So to prove myself, if there is anything I can agree with in your analyses that accompany your reading-along, I will point them out right now.

[crickets chirping...]
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

I'll add that I've said in the past that Jeremiah was the Duddits of the Last Chrons. Just thought I would clarify this point. Any weak character, as I've said, will only appear to be weak.
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Post by shadowbinding shoe »

Really, will you lay off with the personal attacks? If you find everything I ever said about AATC such a chirping waste of time maybe you should find someone else to talk to. Certainly you've been ignoring the points I made to explain my stance. Aren't we here to discuss each others' opinions?

On the point of perspective - there is no objective third person omniscient narrator in these books. The whole story is told either from Linden's perspective or from Covenant's. So the only things we can base our judgment of Anele on are Linden's opinions, the things we see through her eyes and what other characters say about him in her hearing. While the last two have greater objectivity though still questionable (would the others say what they truly think about him if it's negative in her hearing?) I'm not sure they say what you claim they say.

As for your references, of Stephen King and your own posts in the past I'll have to take your words on them. Never read Stephen King.
Linden was led astray by the attack of Demondim on Revelstone, that it was not what it appeared to be, that it was a strategy to manipulate Linden into using power. At that time, I wrote at least a dozen posts on how everything in the book was not as it appears.
Doesn't seem like it was confirmed. The Demondim didn't have a lot of impact on the story. It was Roger and the Croyel that affected Linden. I know a lot of people were fooled by their appearance but to me it seemed false from the start. Too easy, too perfect. And too jarring once we got to meet them.
And what about Anele? Did I not write, back in the day, that Anele, apparently the weakest character, would turn out to be the strongest? [...]


He was never 'the weakest character'. He was 'the hope of the earth'. Liand saw himself as ordinary. The two cords certainly did. But he never fulfilled his destiny. Instead he gave it to another (after much goading and shaming) to carry out.

The fact that Liand needed to be appointed by the powers that be (Arch-Covenant and Anele's parents) to die uselessly in order to shame Anele into doing something unselfish should tell us something. That he didn't want to go on living after that should also tell us another.
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Re: Part 2 - chapter 12: Sold Souls

Post by Hiro »

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: That being said, I am not intending to natter negativity at you. I have proven capable of uttering praise on many occasions. So to prove myself, if there is anything I can agree with in your analyses that accompany your reading-along, I will point them out right now.

[crickets chirping...]

What is the point of all these personal attacks?

Does it add anything to these threads, or the arguments?

Is it respectful and or civil behavior to disparage others?
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Really, will you lay off with the personal attacks? If you find everything I ever said about AATC such a chirping waste of time maybe you should find someone else to talk to. Certainly you've been ignoring the points I made to explain my stance. Aren't we here to discuss each others' opinions?

On the point of perspective - there is no objective third person omniscient narrator in these books. The whole story is told either from Linden's perspective or from Covenant's. So the only things we can base our judgment of Anele on are Linden's opinions, the things we see through her eyes and what other characters say about him in her hearing. While the last two have greater objectivity though still questionable (would the others say what they truly think about him if it's negative in her hearing?) I'm not sure they say what you claim they say.

As for your references, of Stephen King and your own posts in the past I'll have to take your words on them. Never read Stephen King.
Linden was led astray by the attack of Demondim on Revelstone, that it was not what it appeared to be, that it was a strategy to manipulate Linden into using power. At that time, I wrote at least a dozen posts on how everything in the book was not as it appears.
Doesn't seem like it was confirmed. The Demondim didn't have a lot of impact on the story. It was Roger and the Croyel that affected Linden. I know a lot of people were fooled by their appearance but to me it seemed false from the start. Too easy, too perfect. And too jarring once we got to meet them.
And what about Anele? Did I not write, back in the day, that Anele, apparently the weakest character, would turn out to be the strongest? [...]


He was never 'the weakest character'. He was 'the hope of the earth'. Liand saw himself as ordinary. The two cords certainly did. But he never fulfilled his destiny. Instead he gave it to another (after much goading and shaming) to carry out.

The fact that Liand needed to be appointed by the powers that be (Arch-Covenant and Anele's parents) to die uselessly in order to shame Anele into doing something unselfish should tell us something. That he didn't want to go on living after that should also tell us another.
"The hope of the Earth." Now you have someone's personal thought about Anele, but it wasn't Linden's. And I frankly don't recall her making any personal judgment about him, either to say he was weak or strong, brave or cowardly. As for being the weakest character, that could be Jeremiah who can't/couldn't even do much without the croyel's assistance. But Anele was the character who always had to be carried over soil, and basically had to be carried everywhere and taken care of like a baby.

Edit - I've done some research on this. It was Anele who said that about Anele, and it was "the hope of the Land" (speaking of himself in the third person).
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Re: Part 2 - chapter 12: Sold Souls

Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

Hiro wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: That being said, I am not intending to natter negativity at you. I have proven capable of uttering praise on many occasions. So to prove myself, if there is anything I can agree with in your analyses that accompany your reading-along, I will point them out right now.

[crickets chirping...]

What is the point of all these personal attacks?

Does it add anything to these threads, or the arguments?

Is it respectful and or civil behavior to disparage others?
Well you see, a couple years ago I was chided by a forum manager here for affecting Donaldson's self-confidence. It was explained to me at that time that Donaldson has self-confidence issues, and I got the impression that negative comments about Donaldson's work are harmful to his psyche.

Edit - I finally was able to double-check myself on this. It wasn't a forum manager, and I didn't write the confidence-destroying post, it was a negative review I posted the link to three years ago.
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Post by Vraith »

shadowbinding shoe wrote: He was never 'the weakest character'. He was 'the hope of the earth'. Liand saw himself as ordinary. The two cords certainly did. But he never fulfilled his destiny. Instead he gave it to another (after much goading and shaming) to carry out.

The fact that Liand needed to be appointed by the powers that be (Arch-Covenant and Anele's parents) to die uselessly in order to shame Anele into doing something unselfish should tell us something. That he didn't want to go on living after that should also tell us another.
I don't see it this way. For one, I don't think anyone in the Land, including TC even when he was the Arch, "appoints" anyone. [well...the elohim do, and look how f-d up that always turns out].
Liand showed everybody who matters something I think will be extremely important in the end: you can heal damage to the soul!
AND neither Anele nor Liand acted from shame. Liand died doing something that no one had the slightest idea could be, or needed to be done. Anele died by at last overcoming his previous fear and shame [he was afraid, and shamed by it, that he couldn't face his destiny: placing his earthpower in the hands of the one who can, potentially, re--build worlds]
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Post by Zarathustra »

I have to say that once they left the gypsum ridge where they sat for 200 pages, the book has developed some momentum and has been much better for it. The end of the chapter where Linden throws away the Staff was very "trippy" and interesting. And Jeremiah healing himself was just astounding. What a great scene!

Now I'm back to Covenant's perspective, and the last 80 or so pages. I'm ready to be "wowed" in the end. Bring it on, Donaldson!
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Re: Part 2 - chapter 9: Great Need

Post by Zarathustra »

[Carefully stepping to avoid the minefield of spoilers, I can now respond to a few points here ...]
shadowbinding shoe wrote:Part 2 - chapter 9: Great Need

Stave goes out of his way to prove to us how little Linden had to do with Jeremiah's recovery. Instead it's just various people and being from the Land that he only knew a couple of days and him mechanically building something that means nothing to us that does the trick. OK, I accept that maybe Linden couldn't free him from the croyel but since then his problem was merely not feeling safe (and loved and needed) enough yet to come out of his shell. Why would a show of fireworks be a fitting answer to this need? The scenes Linden had with the Mahdoubt after Melenkurion Abatha would have been much more fitting and would be far more moving.
I thought Jeremiah freeing himself was perfect. I don't think the problem after the croyel is as simple as you say--merely not feeling safe and loved and needed enough to come out of his shell. The croyel was an active force that could completely take over Jeremiah's soul, if he hadn't hidden himself in his "graves." And once the croyel was killed, Jeremiah's self-imposed prison required a self-made key. He put himself there, so he had to get himself out. And he needed the right material to build the right structure, not merely safety and security. So this "mechanically building something that means nothing to us," as you say, is much more in my opinion: it is his particular gift, his talent for spatial relations--a counterpart to the temporal relations manipulated by others like Joan, Linden, Esmer, ranyhyn, etc.. He is able to work with the bare building blocks of reality, spatiality itself. And he does so with materials that find their expression in that spatiality. Like Linden, he is working with the essential Laws of this world, its basic structures, but his is unique for its focus upon spatiality.
Shadowbindingshoe wrote:And the racecar is Jeremiah birthright?? That's going too far. It only gained significance a few hours before everyone entered the Land when he picked it up for the first time. And if it became a symbol of the love between Jeremiah and Linden, throwing it to him in the midst of an action scene exemplifies what is wrong with this scene for me.
It's more than a symbol of the love between J and L. In fact, I'm not sure it ever was a symbol of love (like say, a ring). Go back to Runes and see what Donaldson says about the issue of racecars. Racecars weren't brought up as a subject in themselves, but rather as a side issue to the racetrack:
On page 45 of Runes, SRD wrote:Now towers festooned with curlicues of track reached up on either side of his bedroom door to meet in an arch at the height of the lintel. Raceways in airy spans linked those structures to the ones which he had already finished. Yet the design would have been useless to its cars. The track through all of its loops and turns and dives formed an elaborate Mobius strip, reversing itself as it traveled so that in time a finger drawn along its route would touch every inch of its surface on both sides.

She had never asked him to take it down. Surely it was special to him? Why else had he only worked on it late at night, when he was alone? In some sense, it was more uniquely his than anything else he had built.
This is the most important structure Jeremiah built, because it is more uniquely his. Some have suggested it's a symbol of the Arch of Time (because it forms an arch), but I think maybe the structure is "more uniquely his" simply because it's a model for himself, a symbol of the recursive "space" of his own self-conciousness, looping back upon itself.

The car is important in its contrast to the track. SRD goes out of his way to point out--3 times--that Jeremiah has no interest in the cars. He is interested in essential structures. However, while being kidnapped, Jeremiah finally becomes interested in one car, so much that he actually takes one with him to the Land. That act of taking a car with him is a willful act, perhaps his only willful act that didn't involve "mindless" construction of spatial structures. That car was Jeremiah's birthright because it was a symbol of his freewill, his consciousness. It's his personhood, his ability to live a life within this spatial/temporal structure that is our reality. And the racetrack was "useless" to cars because of its shape, a symbol of how Jeremiah's freewill could not work properly on the recursive space of his mental prison. He was trapped in himself much like a Mobius strip curves back upon itself.

Reclaiming the car in AATE was like reclaiming his will, an act that was simultaneously "straightening out the track," by building the right shape (the bone structure) so that the space of his consciousness was no longer recursive.
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